251 replies to this topic

[IceLom]

At the range described 2x PPC's do the same damage for less heat and less then half the tonnage and crits.... so you are going to have to nerf ppc's again... and well pretty much everything else.

This really all boils down to another classic "I died to something therefore its over powerd!" thread and they are getting quite old at this point

[CravenMadness]

are people still bitching about ac/40 jagers? ... That's hilarious... Shut up and play the game. You'll realize that ac/40s are few and far between anymore.

[Karl Streiger]

If still someone run a AC 40 ... he deserves that - maybe a good one or maybe a really worse player or a new one. Not really necessary to complain about

Edited by Karl Streiger, 20 October 2013 - 11:12 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lubalin, on 20 October 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

2 shots from an AC40 Jagermech at like 500m and my atlas has lost 2/3 of its weapons.

This is way imbalanced.

When I bring 1 ac20 on a mech, getting kills is insanely easy due to such accurate damage. Anything comparable has serious downsides. 2 ppcs generate a ton of heat. 2 LL are tough to get pinpoint accuracy. And that's just comparable to a single ac20.

2x ac20 is out of control. 40 damage, pinpoint accuracy, that works at such a long range is way too much. A mech shouldn't be able to fire 2 at once so often without overheating.

Ac20 needs a more drastic range limitation and a huge heat penalty when firing more than 1.

Oh, and L2P, kill at range, don't get close, etc. is true, but tactics don't fix poor balance. Cheers.

No. No its not. At that range you are getting hit with a Pinpoint...20 damage. And 40 points Pinpoint is the same as 20 damage on TT thanks to double armor. So unless you stripped armor off your Atlas 40 damage should not get through your armor in one shot. But two salvos of 40 in the same torso is ruinous. even on TT. So either you are not giving us the whole story or you were hacked!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 October 2013 - 04:38 AM.

[Mawai]

High just a few comments:

1) The OP story is either wrong or exaggerated unless a through armor critical hit managed to ignite a gauss rifle or ammo which blew off the side. Through armor critical hits certainly appeared to be in the game in both closed and early open beta but the odds are quite low so they do not often come up. I have no idea whether they are still in the game since proving their existence is difficult. (As an example, AC20s used to be killed very quickly because they took up so many critical slots, this occurred in some cases even BEFORE the armor for the location was totally stripped - indicating that through armor critical hits were in the game or a bug that did the same thing was in place.)

2) The damage decay on any ballistic or beam weapon is the following.
- normal damage to optimum range ... then linear decay to zero damage at 2x optimum for beam weapons/ppc and 3x optimum for ballistics.
- so for an AC20 this is 20 damage to 270 then ramping to zero at 810
- at 450m an AC20 will do about 13 points of damage - at 510m an AC20 will do about 11. It goes to 10 damage at 540m.
- so an AC40 at 450m would do about 26 points of damage ... it would take 3 shots to penetrate an Atlas with 64 armor at that range AND it would not blow off the arm unless it critically hit a gauss rifle or ammo since the internal structure is the same as the armor.
- finally the AC20 rounds are slow and drop substantially over longer ranges making them more difficult to use in long range situations.

3) AC40 is probably one of the least effective Jagermech builds. It can be fun and challenging to play but I have had better results with 2xUAC5+4ML, 2AC10+2ML and 4xAC2+2ML builds.

4) Jagermechs with XL engines are very vulnerable. I have used mostly standard engines in them recently. With a standard engine they are slow.

Mech performance ultimately depends on the pilot but both Jagermechs and Cataphracts can be very effective and will cause a lot of damage if ignored on the battlefield.

Final comment on AC20 ... hitting a light mech that is moving fast across your field of view is usually quite difficult with an AC20. On the other hand, if those lights or mediums are stopped and engaging someone else, then the AC20 or AC40 is extremely effective. One of the key defences in a mech is to not stop. Once in a melee a team mate overheated and an opposing spider stopped to focus fire (possibly to get a kill) ... he died instead since the spider hitbox issue is much less of a problem when they are stationary.

[Skunk Wolf]

Ammo count back down to 5 shots a ton.

[Joseph Mallan]

Only if all ammo is reduced to TT levels. Wich is to say I am not against it, just not using it to punish AC20s.

[Damon Howe]

Hit detection is the biggest problem with the ac40's...how am I supposed to kill mechs with my ac40 cicada if only one shot actually registers?

[Bad Andy]

OP may also have been the victim of the known bug where front torso damage gets transferred to the rear torso

[xMEPHISTOx]

Lubalin, on 20 October 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

2 shots from an AC40 Jagermech at like 500m and my atlas has lost 2/3 of its weapons.

This is way imbalanced.

When I bring 1 ac20 on a mech, getting kills is insanely easy due to such accurate damage. Anything comparable has serious downsides. 2 ppcs generate a ton of heat. 2 LL are tough to get pinpoint accuracy. And that's just comparable to a single ac20.

2x ac20 is out of control. 40 damage, pinpoint accuracy, that works at such a long range is way too much. A mech shouldn't be able to fire 2 at once so often without overheating.

Ac20 needs a more drastic range limitation and a huge heat penalty when firing more than 1.

Oh, and L2P, kill at range, don't get close, etc. is true, but tactics don't fix poor balance. Cheers.

Honestly the AC40 mechas have as many disadvantages as they do advantages. You just need to know the disadvantages to counter the advantages.

[Dirkdaring]

Bad Andy, on 21 October 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

OP may also have been the victim of the known bug where front torso damage gets transferred to the rear torso

Or... he's lying out of his teeth.

I'm going for that one.

[One Medic Army]

Dirkdaring, on 21 October 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Or... he's lying out of his teeth. I'm going for that one.

More likely he just got hit with a dual-gauss mech or something else in addition and assumed all damage was from the 2x AC/20s.
Guass rifle hits are fairly easy to miss if you're not directly looking at the firer.

[Khobai]

AC40 is fine. It only has a 270m optimum range.

Its AC5s that are unbalanced. Long range, low heat, fast cooldown, perfect synergy with PPCs.

[Karl Streiger]

Khobai, on 21 October 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

AC40 is fine. It only has a 270m optimum range.

Its AC5s that are unbalanced. Long range, low heat, fast cooldown, perfect synergy with PPCs.

Nah...AC 20 has a real optimum range of 400m - till this range there is not a single weapon that deal more damage in a single shot
This in mind the AC 20 is not a short range but a real mid range weapon.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 22 October 2013 - 05:10 AM.

[AC]

Lubalin, on 20 October 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

2 shots from an AC40 Jagermech at like 500m and my atlas has lost 2/3 of its weapons.

This is way imbalanced.

When I bring 1 ac20 on a mech, getting kills is insanely easy due to such accurate damage. Anything comparable has serious downsides. 2 ppcs generate a ton of heat. 2 LL are tough to get pinpoint accuracy. And that's just comparable to a single ac20.

2x ac20 is out of control. 40 damage, pinpoint accuracy, that works at such a long range is way too much. A mech shouldn't be able to fire 2 at once so often without overheating.

Ac20 needs a more drastic range limitation and a huge heat penalty when firing more than 1.

Oh, and L2P, kill at range, don't get close, etc. is true, but tactics don't fix poor balance. Cheers.

This should only have been possible on one mech in this era...the King Crab. If PGI hadn't implented such a poor weapon slot system, we wouldn't be dealing with all these imbalances.

Think about it.... Before Ghost heat, what was the issue? The fact that LL or PPC were that powerful? Or the fact that you could boat between 3-6 of them on any mech 50 tons and heavier.

[RetroActive]

FupDup, on 20 October 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

Like I said above, tonnage limits won't actually address this. This is a convergence problem (which we already know that the devs are not going to change).

Good on the Devs!! I actually enjoy when things shoot where I aim. We all know this isn't a mech simulator and I'd like it to stay that way.

[Joseph Mallan]

AC, on 22 October 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

This should only have been possible on one mech in this era...the King Crab. If PGI hadn't implented such a poor weapon slot system, we wouldn't be dealing with all these imbalances.

Think about it.... Before Ghost heat, what was the issue? The fact that LL or PPC were that powerful? Or the fact that you could boat between 3-6 of them on any mech 50 tons and heavier.

So a King Crab with 2 AC2 is a better choice than a Jager!?! Th King comes with more armor, secondary weapons, and tonnage to be able to use them!!!

[AC]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 October 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

So a King Crab with 2 AC2 is a better choice than a Jager!?! Th King comes with more armor, secondary weapons, and tonnage to be able to use them!!!

YES! For one, you would expect that firepower on an assault mech, and for two it moves at 48kph. The twin AC20 jagger can go 71kph with speed tweak. Plus, don't look at it from a single mech standpoint, look at it from a team standpoint. How much extra fire power is able to be brought onto the field when heavy mechs can bring equal firepower to what assault mechs should field.

[Karl Streiger]

RetroActive, on 22 October 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

Good on the Devs!! I actually enjoy when things shoot where I aim. We all know this isn't a mech simulator and I'd like it to stay that way.

You started in October... so you still must know that it wasn't that way all the time.
I can live without artifical convergence - cone of fire elements - but i really want the convergence time of CB back. Even the short "break" between triggering a weapon and the shot.
It should be more difficutl to hit targets...not that easy as it is actuall....oh and a really good example why current convergence is snafu:
I stand toe on toe with a enemy battleMaster...there was no room between us, and still I was able to hit his cockpit with my machine guns in the left arm of my Thunderbolt - as well as with the large laser of in the right arm.

So tell me - you wan't to hit were you aim - even when the muzzle of that weapons should have been 40m behind you?

[Joseph Mallan]

AC, on 22 October 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

YES! For one, you would expect that firepower on an assault mech, and for two it moves at 48kph. The twin AC20 jagger can go 71kph with speed tweak. Plus, don't look at it from a single mech standpoint, look at it from a team standpoint. How much extra fire power is able to be brought onto the field when heavy mechs can bring equal firepower to what assault mechs should field.

I've had that firepower on Heavies since the mid/late 80s!!! Against half the armor and no whining!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 October 2013 - 06:21 AM.