440 replies to this topic

[mike29tw]

Hit reg is indeed a problem with all chassis, but spider seems to be the only one that can take a full m.laser duration with no damage registered.

[stjobe]

mike29tw, on 22 October 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

Hit reg is indeed a problem with all chassis, but spider seems to be the only one that can take a full m.laser duration with no damage registered.

Sadly, that's not true:



That's no Spider.

[shintakie]

Personally I wish more mechs were like the Spider (hit reg issues not included).

People keep complainin that mechs die too fast, that fights dont last long enough, blah blah. If more mechs were like the Spider and had the ability to twist to spread damage, fights would last a lot longer than they do now.

[Gallowglas]

As long as misses against any mech are genuinely because I missed rather than because of hit detection issues, I have no problem with it. I think making it hard to hit because it's small, fast, and agile adds an interesting dimension and balance to the game. I don't like the idea of making it bigger just because it's hard to land a hit. I don't mind it taking a skilled shot to hit. I just want it to actually be based on skill and reliable mechanics rather than luck and arbitrary hit resolution.

Edited by Gallowglas, 22 October 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[Huntsman]

Were I the engineer who managed to come up with a scout mech that could take more punishment than 3 Atlases I too would err on the side of calling it "well designed."

[mike29tw]

stjobe, on 22 October 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

Sadly, that's not true:



That's no Spider.

That's not medium laser either.

[Tesunie]

mike29tw, on 22 October 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

That's not medium laser either.

I don't know what you saw, but I saw 20 seconds of a single mech being shot at with ACs, Missiles (SRMs), PPCs and lasers, and not taking any damage from any of it. I think that proved the point very well personally.

[Odins Fist]

xRatas, on 21 October 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

Well, their own game client recognizes the hit but server doesn't. No wonder player thinks he hit it... I thought that's exactly the description of bugged hit detection?

THIS ^

If when firing on a Spider (or other mech) and you see the round or beam physically HIT the target in question, and also when your sensor readout of the enemy mech in the upper right hand corner of your screen lights up like a Christmas tree on a component, and when your crosshairs turn red, all indications are that you have HIT your target.

If these indicators are NOT relaying the correct information, then how is a pilot supposed to gauge his aiming..??
If a hit is indeed confirmed, yet the damage is not being applied, then something is wrong, whether it be HSR, or hit boxes, or whatever causing the issue, then an issue does indeed exist.

ANECDOTES: Personally I have used the same exact formula for aiming and shooting lights.

Here is what I have found.
Beam Weapons:
Spread damage across areas of all mechs unless their movement can be countered by aiming (holding beam on specific component, but all receive damage. The Jenner seems to take damage correctly relative to the energy weapon used, so does the Commando, the Raven, the medium mech Cicada, but the Spider does not seem to be affected in the same way, and even stationary Spiders (or slow moving behind a friendly) seem to have a problem receiving the appropriate amount of damage, but I expect an amount damage bug from a beam weapon.

Ballistic or One shot weapons: Here's the kicker!
The ER-PPC used, hit confirmed by sensors to the rear or front CT already yellow or orange, no damage change, and also if indicator is off why no other area affected, arm or leg should have taken damage. Something should have taken damage relative to the weapons listed damage, and also if any area already stripped of armor then damage transfer should be in effect if hit is actually hitting. It gets better! Damage should be concentrated to a degree, and not spread over entire mech (one shot weapon) by itself this is not game breaking, but when used in combination with other weapons the problem is compounded.
A one shot weapon should do all of it's damage in one hit to one component, if it ISN'T going through an arm to get to a CT, or side torso.

The AC-20 used at ranges between 40-50-100-150-etc meters, all indicators show a hit, and same as example above, something needs to take damage, even catching the rare stationary Spider, or the off straight line run away, and result is same as example above with ER-PPC. By itself is not game breaking, but again when used in combination with other weapons, then something needs to be damaged in relation to the weapons damage potential.

Lets say you see a Spider stop behind a friendly for a spilt second, and you fire an AC-20, ER-LL and ER-PPC into the rear CT of a Spider and it runs off either unhurt, or barely scratched... Hmmmm.. Seems odd.

Lets say a Spider is running from friendly, turns directly toward you at 120 meters and you hit him with everything you have, all indicators show hit, but his armor value in terms of color do NOT change... Hmmmm.. seems odd.

Now this doesn't happen every single time with the Spider, BUT here is the problem, are you ready for it..??
There is NO CONSISTENCY.

#1. Sometimes all indicators show a hit and what seems to be very little damage is done. (armor or no armor left)
#2. Sometimes all indicators show the exact same hit, and all damage seems to be done. (armor or no armor left)
#3. Sometimes all indicators show the exact same hit, and ZERO damage seems to be done. (armor or no armor left)
#4. Sometimes all indicators show the exact same hit, and the Spider dies even though he had what looks like full armor.
#5. Sometimes no sensors show hit, only visual confirmation of round hitting, and Spider takes no damage.
#6. Sometimes no sensors show hit, only visual confirmation of round hitting, and Spider dies.

If there is no consistency, then there is no rule, there is no standard on which to approach that issue.
And remember kids, you're probably NOT the only mech on your team firing at the Spider.!!!

This issue is does NOT exist soley with the Spider.
However the frequency of uncertainty as it relates to the damage the Spider takes depending on examples #1 to #6, is quite apparent.

The Jenner, Commando, Raven, Locust, and medium Cicada do not appear to suffer from the same degree of uncertainty, as it relates to damage taken. Personally I have no issues with any other mechs NOT taking damage, taking very little damage, or randomly taking damage to the extent I have seen with the Spider. Using the same formula for shooting all other light mechs, and having FAR greater success with more heavily armored lights and the medium Cicada compared to the Spider, then something is clearly off, and it is NOT my aim.

Is this a Hit Box issue..?? Unknown, and perhaps there is no design flaw with the mech itself.
Is this HSR issue..?? Possible, but we haven't been given any concrete info to look at.

Is there no issue at all..?? More then highly unlikely, the amount of feedback sighting the same issue over, and over, and over, and over, and over again by multitudes of players across the board, and even from those that pilot Spiders says otherwise.

We'll see what happens in the future, but for now just let the Hit Reg roll the dice to see if your weapons do their stated damage at stated ranges to the little devil.

Edited by Odins Fist, 22 October 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Tesunie, on 22 October 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

I don't know what you saw, but I saw 20 seconds of a single mech being shot at with ACs, Missiles (SRMs), PPCs and lasers, and not taking any damage from any of it. I think that proved the point very well personally.

Maybe it's just me, but he seemed to be moving like he knew it, too. Just sayin'.

[Corwin Vickers]

Someone has to be lagging for these issues to happen, either you or them. As I have a very good connection, if you have a good connection you will have no trouble hitting me.


Solutions to Hit Registration Problems:


1. In the vein of "ban light mechs till their 'hitboxes' are fixed!" let's ban all high ping players with ping over 100 until they get their connections fixed. My game would vastly improve. Hit detection issues will disappear. Will probably cause a lot of whining. Lower server population, higher queue times, worse match making.


2. Create regional servers so that everyone has a server close to them reducing pings but also dividing up the already small player base hurting matchmaking and queue times. You thought tonnage and Elo matching was borked before, what happens when your player pool is 24 players. Might cost more money to manage remote servers (I think the servers might be very near the studio since the trace route seems to suggest they are in Toronto.)


3. Make the servers client authoratative so that ping times are not doubled while confirming everything with the server thus people with bad connections will only have it half as bad. This will also open the doors to insta kills, speed hacks, aim bots, wall hacks, spiked models, fluorescent enemies,no heat, invicibility, clipping, teleporting, infinite flying, etc cheats. They will be difficult to prevent since this is a Free to Play game where a cheater can just make a new account if they get caught and banned. Punkbuster only blocks last months hacks.


4. Set up your rig in your local internet backbone. Very noisy so you'll need an excellent noise cancellation headset for voice comms. No food or drink. Dry air chaps your lips. Cold/hot depending on where you're sitting. Excellent bandwidth and ping. Gotta know somebody or $$.
http://www.speedtest...sult/3021226262


5. Move to Toronto. Might be the easiest way to lower your ping. Significant cost associated. Very cold part of the year. Canadians are some of the meanest people in the world (kidding). You better like hockey. Bonus, all the Canadian bacon and maple syrup you can eat.


6. L2P. Acknowledge that everyone deals with the issue in some way, whether you have high ping or your target has high ping, or you both have high ping, hit registration problems happen to all mechs, light or heavy. Everyone learns that their lead depends on their ping plus their enemies ping and learns that the flashing red crosshair means precisely {Richard Cameron}.

Instead of whining on the forums for a nerf for anything that kills them, people spend their time fixing their internet connection and learning to aim.


A place with some utilities to optimize ping
http://www.speedguide.net/

Investigate your routing. Go to programs/accessories/command prompt
Type "tracert 70.42.29.75"
See if the servers your connection is going to make sense. Make sure you don't have an excessive number of hops. If something appears funky call your ISP and send them your trace route and explain that you need low ping for gaming. The last hop should time out, I believe because they have set the servers not to respond to ping to prevent DoS attacks.
How to cut and paste from the Command Prompt
http://www.howtogeek...command-prompt/

Check your ping or lost packets. Do a tracert and note the ip of the last hop before it starts timing out. This should be the node before the servers (which may vary depending on your routing).

Open up the Command Prompt as above. Type "ping -t (IP of last hop)"
Let it run for a little while. Hit CTRL <BREAK> or CTRL C to get your averages.
Any packet-loss is bad. Ping can be affected by bandwidth over-utilization. Also distance and route (see trace route), also if you are a big bandwidth user (torrents) certain companies will throttle your bandwidth and give your packets less priority. You'll have to call your ISP and see what they will do for you. Money talks.

Different kinds of connections generally have different ranges of pings with Fiber to the Premises being the best though cable may be more realistic for most people. If you are in a country with 100 year old copper lines (some parts of the US) and only DSL available see option #5. Sometimes changing the pair of copper you are using can give tremendous gains. T1, while slow bandwidth wise, sometimes has better ping as well.

Latency vs Bandwidth
http://services.gree...net/FAQs-T1.htm

[Mehlan]

Excellent Post Corwin. :-)

[Corwin Vickers]

Mycrus, on 21 October 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

I have 300mbps fibre connection... It is the physical distance and wonky routing tables you pompous dezgra..

Call your ISP and get your routing fixed. Fiber should be fast even with great distance.

xRatas, on 21 October 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

Yep it seems north america has bad connections, as they cannot respond in 20ms I should normally expect here in Finland... Even Germany is much better, at least they can respond in 60ms. I'm sure it's just bad connections at the third world, nothing to do with geological distances.

32% of the US users still only gets 56K or below. I over generalized.

However Finland has excellent internet.

I did a trace route to finland.fi and noticed this:
10 91 ms 93 ms 91 ms he-4-2-0-0-cr01.newyork.ny.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.88.137]
11 81 ms 80 ms 79 ms be-12-pe02.111eighthave.ny.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.82.74]
12 82 ms 113 ms 80 ms xe-4-2-0-0.nyk2nqp1.us.ip.tdc.net [195.215.109.149]
13 200 ms 200 ms 198 ms xe-0-0-0-0.fujdcmit-pe1.van.fi.ip.tdc.net [62.236.2.213]
14 202 ms 204 ms 200 ms cpe.ge-1-0-0-0.fujdcmit-pe1.van.fi.customer.tdc.net [62.237.154.87]
15 200 ms 200 ms 200 ms 213214179017.edelkey.net [213.214.179.17]

My ping jumps up 100ms between Denmark and Finland. My conclusion is that Denmark does not want you to do well in MWO. Not a distance issue though right?

195.215.109.149
IP Location
dkDenmark

62.236.2.213
IP Location
fiFinland

[Zordicron]

Last week, I was in a match with my A1 lulz streakapult. I use it to keep lights off our base, to keep them away from our team so we dont squirrel chase, and to confound and annoy bigger mechs while my team pummels them.

Anyway, enter: Spider. it comes around a sort of mid range flank from below some bluffs. I am watching specifically along the firnges for lights, so I see him coming. I position between him and the team, with a track to run on towards base if he is headed that way. he doesnt, he is trying to get in behind ranks and do some squirrelly chaos tactics. Nope, I have him targeted. he runs almost right at me, and eats a full salvo of 6 SSRM2's from under 100M. He gets yellow armor on one arm. Wait what?

So he turns, probably from instinct at the huge thud he probably heard hit his mech, and begins to run along the inside edge of a bluff towards base. (this is all on caustic BTW, somewhere halfway down 3 line between the hills and the caldera) He is trying to get to the end of it so he can get around the hill behind the ridge. I fire again. He is at 120M. Hit him in the back. Red crosshair. ZERO DMG DEALT. Again, 160M. ZERO DMG DEALT. At this point, he has seen what is going on, and halts his escape, turning instead to the inside of the bluff edge to strike me with his single LL. I start to chainfire SSRM, thinking maybe it was the full salvo en masse that was causing wierdness. It is more successful, but not really much so. I fired off rounds at him until my heat was almost at the shutdown mark(in chainfire mind you) and managed to get orange armor on an arm and yellow on other places.


I mean, C'MON MAN. Its factory built in aim-bot streaks with like autohit on LOS enemy, and it doesnt hit?

I dont care what all you "spiders arent that broken" people say. I have never seen ever any other mech not see hit detection from a SSRM, ever. Rediculous. HSR will turn spidey's world on it's head. If and when they ever decide it is time to work on it.

[Xeno Phalcon]

WTB some "well design" for my locusts and orions, why im at it may as well fork up the cbills to have that treatment for the poor pilots of Awesomes.

[OneEyed Jack]

"It's what it's made of. Back in the 22nd Century aerospace engineers discovered that after a plane crash, the only thing that always survives intact is a cute little doll, so they made Starbug Spiders out of the same stuff. "

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 22 October 2013 - 06:43 PM.

[Tesunie]

Eldagore, on 22 October 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

I mean, C'MON MAN. Its factory built in aim-bot streaks with like autohit on LOS enemy, and it doesnt hit?

To be honest, I've had things like this happen with any fast light mech. The problem I've noticed is that sometimes, the missiles (any of them) explode on contact! Well, then hit registry takes effect, makes your explosion happen in one place (where your target was when they got hit), but then applies damage after your target has already moved from the spot where they got hit. This tends to result with targets not taking teh full hit, and only getting hit with just the splash damage of the attack, and not the full damage of the attack. (Basically, they "out run" the explosion somehow and don't get hit when they did get hit.)

This isn't a problem I've seen with just the Spider, but with just about any fast mech. Heck, I've seen larger (slower) mechs do this effect with LRMs, where I shoot tons of LRMs at them, only for them to dance in the rain like nothing is happening. Only a fraction of the damage actually hit, which was just the splash damage. It's like your missiles hit, and then HSR rewinds where they didn't hit, so sometimes they didn't hit where you saw them hit... Just a theory here. I've seen this effect not just with the Spider, which is the point of this thread.

Fix overall hit registry, then look into the Spider. Right now, we don't know what the problem is. Any fix now will only mess up the spider when other fixes come into play. This problem isn't JUST a spider problem, just it seems to be most noticeable on a spider for some reason that we do not yet know.

[Dugra Dugrasson]

Hello AC20 round, watch as you do no point damage to me and spread out all over my body.

/thread

[kongman]

spider is broken , end of story ...only people defending the mech are the people using , and exploiting it .

[Tesunie]

kongman, on 22 October 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

spider is broken , end of story ...only people defending the mech are the people using , and exploiting it .

I think most of us aren't saying if it is, or isn't. I think we can't properly tell unless all of the hit reg problems are fixed first. Also, not all of us are "exploiting" the "problem". Some of us just like the mech, or play it only on occasion. (Personally, I only own one Spider, and I don't play it all that often.)

Spider is not the only thing broken, and many of the problems seen with the spider are seen with other mechs as well, just it seems more noticeable with them. Also, has anything been tested since the last patch? Most evidence I see against the spider are several patches old...

[MrMadguy]

Sounds similar to "Paladins are fine" from Wow at WotLK time. 4LL+2ML alpha should literally blow Spider up, but all you see is a little bit yellow armor. One alpha, two, three... Even Atlas would be already melted, but Spider is still running under fire of 3-4 mechs.