23 replies to this topic

[CrashieJ]

Battletech is a complex game full of equations and math and all that other smart-guy basement-Dwelling-Nerd type stuff we all love.

Mechwarrior (and it's short-lived sisters MechCommander and Mechassault) is a sub-section that is a bit easier on the mind made for a "semi-realtime" environment (IE. VIDEOGAMES) and takes some liberties in the holy names of "FUN", "Challenging", and "Balanced"

it was a little less complex, but it wasn't complicated. You had set goals, you had reasonable objectives, and a plethora of tools to get there and when properly used could benefit the player IMMENSELY.

This Brings me to Living Legends and MPBT:3025. Both followed a simple mantra that helped the former keep it's playerbase ad the latter latch on to our memory like a cool summer day.

KEEP IT ENGAGING, KEEP IT SIMPLE, KEEP IT COMPLEX.*

*

Spoiler

"but Gavi, Simple and Complex are different words... you make no sense"

in the reality as we see it yes, you are right, but in both Mathematics and Computer Science, those two words are VERY, VERY SIMILAR, in fact a complex equation can be (if done correctly) parceled out into more simple mathematics.

yes they had their faults with some chassis being crazy overused than others, but it was fine because they had multiple ways of being defeated, and it was accepted by the community as tactics/strategy.
---

Lets flip the page over to MWO.

As part of the Closed Beta crowd given the right to play thanks to a FUBAR in emailing...

"OH MY GOD WAS IT AWESOME. PEW PEW PEW BANG BANG WOOSH."

we were given the ability to choose and build our mechs to our liking and I played Rock-em sock-em RoMechs until the sun went down. It was Complex, but it was simple to understand.

then it started to slowly become less fun, as time went on more complicated mechanics started to come into play... (mind you not Complex, but Complicated).

the biggest thing that comes to people's minds is "Ghost Heat" (OH GOD HERE WE GO AGAIN)

it's complicated, it's not complex, there is no "set" equation where going over the amount would lead to a predictable result other than "Dead"; and if there were, plugging in another weapon's numbers would lead to a wild variation from both the (thankfully we have Smurfy's Mechlab, Thanks Smurfy)

either retool it, or get rid of it. I can even help you with that
---

BattleTech's BV value was and still is complex, but it is pretty much accepted by the community due to the ease of picking it up and the ability to get reliable results.

can you pick it up?
can you understand it?
can you get reliable results?
can you use it in different scenarios?

if you said yes to all of the above, you my friend just created a good game mechanic.
If you said no to any or all of the above, it may be too complicated and may defeat game-balance
---
I hope I've enlightened you on the different meanings of "Complex", "Simple" and "Complicated"

some of the best games are complex yet simple to understand, EUROPA UNIVERSALIS is a great example for anyone who needs a fun "crash-course" and a TL:DR,IWG (Too Long; Didn't Read, I Wanna Game).

this may be lost in the fit of rage and whine, but I hope somebody will be enlightened (PGI) and take the initiative on their part to make the game feel like a game again.

Edited by gavilatius, 21 October 2013 - 08:43 PM.

[Macster16]

Wouldn't Chess be the ultimate example of simple yet complex? It's braindead easy to understand, yet it has almost limitless depth.

[Wispsy]

Macster16, on 21 October 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

Wouldn't Chess be the ultimate example of simple yet complex? It's braindead easy to understand, yet it has almost limitless depth.

The depth is very limited...there are not so many different moves one can make and it is mostly decided very early...

[Roland]

Quote

in the reality as we see it yes, you are right, but in both Mathematics and Computer Science, those two words are VERY, VERY SIMILAR, in fact a complex equation can be (if done correctly) parceled out into more simple mathematics

As a computer scientist, I feel that I must point out that this statement is nonsense.
Simple and complex mean the opposite in math and CS, just like they do in every other interpretation of the english language.

[culverin]

Ghost heat = arbitrary.



I'm a hard-core table top player.
I'd be fine if they just redid all the weapon heats from scratch.
But if they kept the heat scale, then you don't end up with pin-point damage (as much), and they don't need to invent arbitrary game mechanics.

Make a ppc, 12 heat?
Fine.
But make it 12 heat no matter how many I fire.
At least keep the damned thing predictable.

[FinsT]

Roland, on 21 October 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

As a computer scientist, I feel that I must point out that this statement is nonsense.
Simple and complex mean the opposite in math and CS, just like they do in every other interpretation of the english language.

Indeed.

[stjobe]

Wispsy, on 21 October 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

The depth is very limited...there are not so many different moves one can make and it is mostly decided very early...

Quote

there are 318,979,564,000 possible ways to play the first four moves of chess. In addition, America's Foundation for Chess found that there were 169,518,829,100,544,000,000,000,000,000 ways to play the first ten moves of chess.

http://ezinearticles...hess&id=1717732

The Shannon number - the mathematical estimate of the game-tree complexity of chess - is 10¹²⁰. As a comparison, the number of atoms in the observable universe is estimated to be roughly 10⁸⁹.

In short, I wouldn't say chess is shallow.

[Wispsy]

stjobe, on 21 October 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

http://ezinearticles...hess&id=1717732

The Shannon number - the mathematical estimate of the game-tree complexity of chess - is 10¹²⁰. As a comparison, the number of atoms in the observable universe is estimated to be roughly 10⁸⁹.

In short, I wouldn't say chess is shallow.

Yes but play and win?

[stjobe]

Wispsy, on 21 October 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

Yes but play and win?

Quote

The number of possible chess positions after White’s first ply move is 20 (16 pawn moves and 4 knight moves).
There are 400 possible chess positions after two ply moves (first ply move for White followed by first ply move for Black).
There are 5,362 possible positions (White’s second ply move) or 8,902 total positions after two ply moves each.
There are 71,852 possible positions or 197,742 total positions after four moves.
There are 809,896 possible positions or 4,897,256 total positions after 5 moves.
There are 9,132,484 total positions after 6 moves.
From move 7 the possible positions stabilize as chess lines end, even from move 2 some chess lines end.
There are +-10,921,506 total possible positions after 7 moves.

http://www.chess.com...atics-and-chess

Still not really seeing the shallowness.

[Wispsy]

stjobe, on 21 October 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

http://www.chess.com...atics-and-chess

Still not really seeing the shallowness.

Yeah there are loads of positions but most of them are bad...

look no worries I will leave you to it. Difference in life philosophies and all that.

[stjobe]

Wispsy, on 22 October 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

Yeah there are loads of positions but most of them are bad...

look no worries I will leave you to it. Difference in life philosophies and all that.

I don't even play chess, so it's not a matter of pride or philosophy or anything. I just think you were a bit off saying its depth was limited - compared to most other games I don't think it is.

No biggie, and good luck out there

[Frankdark]

Roland, on 21 October 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

As a computer scientist, I feel that I must point out that this statement is nonsense.
Simple and complex mean the opposite in math and CS, just like they do in every other interpretation of the english language.

It´s not nonsense it´s not very clear.

Complex
Can mean difficult to use or/and much variable

Simple
Can mean easy to and/or plain and boring


He want´s a Complex System witch is Simple to understand and use.

[Treye Snow]

I personally dont think any amount of cajoling will get them to simplify the Heat system or the hardpoint system. (I'm sorry but I'll never accept a Cicada being able to wield 2x AC/20's.)

I can sum it up to you in one word too.

Pride.

They're going to play it exactly like Star Wars Galaxies (SOE) and run it into the ground until the servers come down for a final goodbye.

[Karl Streiger]

Ghost Heat became necessary when other mechanics failed. Same with Gauss Charge and other things.
As long as some game mechanics - like pinpoint accuracy are modified I'm pretty sure we will see a lot of other "complicated" things to fix things that are not broken.
Maybe the Ghost Heat will effect AC 5s, UAC 5s too - and the time between shots is increased towards 1sec.
For example: Ghost Ammunition Reduction
For example: Ghost Armor Addition

Mr Terribad, on 22 October 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

Pride.

That little ****** that keep you playing a Mech that is complex and not really efficient TDR-5S Stock

Edited by Karl Streiger, 22 October 2013 - 12:52 AM.

[SirLANsalot]

Explains Depth vs Complexity far better then any one of us here could.











Edit: When he refers to "rules" for us that translates into Mech Lab, aka what you can take to the battlefield. Like in LoL, its the choice of what champ to take and how well it works against what your opponents take.

Edited by SirLANsalot, 22 October 2013 - 01:13 AM.

[Mycrus]

So chess has a gajillion opening moves on a flat plane of something by something squares...

Mwo haz terrain and yet we have go left, right, or center...

[Nik Van Rhijn]

In most PUGs its go right

[FinsT]

Frankdark, on 22 October 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

It´s not nonsense it´s not very clear.

Complex
Can mean difficult to use or/and much variable

Simple
Can mean easy to and/or plain and boring


He want´s a Complex System witch is Simple to understand and use.

The quote Roland was referring to - is nonsense indeed. Words "simple" and "complex" can not be similar in any given context, because these two words are to describe opposite things.

Simple may describe an "easy thing" sometimes, but is any "easy" thing also always "simple"? Nope. Example. For highly talented and well trained nuclear physicist, it's very "easy" to calculate - in their mind, near instantly, - things which are NOT simple, but very complex for an average Joe. For this physicist, it's not difficult at all to use needed equations and calculations - he does it most of his life. For average Joe, however, it'd be ultimately difficult to do the same thing.

"Simple" and "Complex" can also be relative by themselves, of course. If the context is, say, discussion of Formula-1 gearbox designs, then a gearbox schematics of some general-population stock Ford car of 1970s - should indeed be named "simple". Because in compare to modern Formula-1 gearboxes, these schematics _are_ simple. However, if the context is, say, discussion of 1st generation of gearboxes Ford company made (i wonder whan it was - 1920s?), - then same schematics of 1970s gearbox should indeed be named "complex".

In other words, complexity (and simplicity) is relative both objectively and subjectively.

But when used together and in the same context, "simple" and "complex" may never refer to a same thing. It'd be like saying 2+2=1000: a nonsense.

What OP meant is, i guess, an illusion of simplicity. This is well known method many great games indeed implement. It serves to attract more people, - both those who hate "too much" complexity, and those who enjoy it. So in the end, it earns game's creators more money and fame. Still, it's an illusion, nothing more. When the game _is_ complex enough to be named complex (in any fit context), then it can't _be_ simple; all it can do - is to "appeal" simple, to create an "impression" it is simple - while in fact being complex. Take WoW for a good example of this. New players find it extremely very simple game: talk with a guy with "!" over his head, do what he says by clicking on enemies and see 'em killed, rinse repeat. But is WoW a simple game? Nope. Even at early levels, one can do amazingly much, especially if using various addons available. Between all the existing good addons, all the content in the game, and all possible social interactions (guilds, auction houses, solo and team PvP, etc), WoW is extremely very complex game. But it maintains the illusion of simplicity as much as it can even through end-game content. One can indeed keep doing same old "talk with a guy with a "!" over his head, do what he says by clicking enemies and see them die, rinse and repeat" - with little variations, - for almost an eternity in WoW (that's how many quests there are nowadays). It doesn't make WoW a simple game; it makes it a complex game which has, among many other options, some forms of very simple gameplay possible to do in it.

All imho, of course.

Edited by FinsT, 22 October 2013 - 02:12 AM.

[TychoTheItinerant]

Why did this get moved into JetCom? It's a pretty damn good discussion.

EDIT: nevermind, JetCom is the new General Discussion apparently.

Edited by TychoTheItinerant, 22 October 2013 - 05:18 AM.

[Stalephreak]

Seeing as how we have all these elitist CS guys here, I'll throw this out. Take the fundamental theorem of calculus. It's brain-dead easy to use! You spend the whole blasted semester (or more depending on how your school treats integrated, differential...) just proving the darned thing. The actual explanation of how you arrive at it can be complicated as can be, but the actual theorem is simple to use despite its' innate complexity. Why? It's predictable! Ghost heat is only predictable if you RTFM and know about it prior to playing. That just makes it as straight-forward as a bunch of girls trying to get ready for prom when there is only one dress to choose from. You end up with a bunch of stupid solutions that seem totally random and arbitrary (must wear a shoe that has a sparkle three cm to the left of the heel on the left foot, unless the 9th hair follicle sprouted on a Thursday, in which...) One is an elegant solution, the other is bat-schtick crazy...Kind of like ghost heat (the ac 20 is okay if fired in rapid succession unless the mouse is pointed at a dev, in which case it must only be used in groups of one which the zero may be used against you in the court of law, and gauss cannot remember to stay charged unless the energy systems cannot charge on the third blartlesday of the 15th month of zorph)

Edited by Stalephreak, 23 October 2013 - 05:16 PM.