44 replies to this topic

[Cerberias]

Read the rest of my replies and then try an actual arguement with some form of basis or backing, even theoretical is fine.

[Iron War]

the main reason they put this mechanic on the gauss was because of poptarts. charge up is just bad for all weapons and cooldown should be the correct way to go. But then the poptart issue would still be a problem. . . so we have to fix the main cause of the problem. Currently during JJ use there is the shake plus the weapon fire spread. This is wrong. The shake should still be during JJ use but the fire spread should be just during free fall. This would simulate the weightlessness on the actuators. Not to mention what would happen to the mech with the recoil?

vvv maybe not acturate but pretty cool idea vvv

[Deathz Jester]

Cerberias, on 22 October 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Read the rest of my replies and then try an actual arguement with some form of basis or backing, even theoretical is fine.

Theoretically all of your drivel aside, what would happen if you were to play the game, you know... for fun?

[Vulix]

Not this thread again...

If PPCs get a charge-up mechanic, they need to be buffed. They already take up the most slots and generate the most heat out of any energy weapon. They don't need more nerfs at this point, especially not with still-broken hit registration.

Gauss rifle is purposely intended to be a sniper weapon, which is why it has a charge-up mechanic, as stated by PGI over and over again.

Next time do a search before you post another whine thread as well

Edited by Vulix, 23 October 2013 - 12:01 AM.

[WonderSparks]

Without reading anything besides the name of this topic, I personally like the idea of the PPC being the one to charge due to my experience with charging PPCs in the old SNES MechWarrior 3050 (although in that game the Gauss Rifle also charged) and in MechAssault.
So yeah, PPC charge-ups instead of (or as well as) Gauss charge-ups. I would be okay with that.

[Cerberias]

Quote

Theoretically all of your drivel aside, what would happen if you were to play the game, you know... for fun?

If you're balancing things based on playing for fun, I cant honestly answer that without laughing hysterically. next.

Quote

Not this thread again...

If PPCs get a charge-up mechanic, they need to be buffed. They already take up the most slots and generate the most heat out of any energy weapon. They don't need more nerfs at this point, especially not with still-broken hit registration.

Gauss rifle is purposely intended to be a sniper weapon, which is why it has a charge-up mechanic, as stated by PGI over and over again.

Next time do a search before you post another whine thread as well

This isnt a whine thread, if youd read it youd understand that, I also show why the charge mechanic STOPS the gauss from being a sniper weapon. A sniper weapon isnt 'charge and fire' unless you're low elo. I also said in my post that PPC's should be buffed to make them a higher skill weapon than currently, as they'll be harder to use but better when you can work it properly. So once again, READ THE THREAD.

Edited by Cerberias, 22 October 2013 - 11:49 PM.

[Vulix]

Cerberias, on 22 October 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

This isnt a whine thread, if youd read it youd understand that, I also show why the charge mechanic STOPS the gauss from being a sniper weapon. A sniper weapon isnt 'charge and fire' unless you're low elo. I also said in my post that PPC's should be buffed to make them a higher skill weapon than currently, as they'll be harder to use but better when you can work it properly. So once again, READ THE THREAD.

If PPCs get a charge-up mechanic, they need to be buffed (which you admit as well), which is going to need a re-balancing of a bunch of other weapons as well to make it fair IMO. Good teams that get used to the charge-up will DOMINATE anyone else trying to use LLs and such if PPCs\ERPPCs are buffed.

Gauss rifle has a charge-up to purposely gimp it at close range. This is by design: http://mwomercs.com/...moving-forward/

PPCs do not need to be gimped at close range with a charge-up too. They are already disadvantageous at close range due to heat.

So my vote is no, leave it how it is. If anything, drop PPC\ERPPC heat by 1 until hit registration is fixed, and then reset it back to current values when my shots are actually registering accurately 10/10 times like they should be.

Edited by Vulix, 23 October 2013 - 12:04 AM.

[Grimnar]

Alright the main thing here is that Cerb is trying to balance for comp games. I can only assume most of these replies are based off of pug experience or casual 12s. The game you play in comp 12 in no way resembles the game you play when you drop on your own or in a 4 man.

Obviously a balance needs to be struck to suit as many players as possible and this thread is from a competitive player's perspective. Comp 12s are all about front loaded pinpoint alpha whilst being exposed for the shortest amount of time possible, very rarely will you see Atlai striding across open ground in a comp game

As it stands in a comp game, most shots you take you will have less than a second to acquire and fire and you will not know where the enemy will come from. Obviously there is only so many places the enemy can appear, especially pop tarts as low cover will allow for the jump smoke to be spotted before they are visible. So unfortunately unless you pre-charge before spotting your intended target you won't be able to return fire with a Gauss rifle in a snipe war currently (again, assuming comp level pilots here ).

I like the mechanic, I'd like it more if the Gauss and PPC were switched as it would allow the 2 weapons to fill their respective roles more accurately.

[Vulix]

Grimnar, on 23 October 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

Alright the main thing here is that Cerb is trying to balance for comp games. I can only assume most of these replies are based off of pug experience or casual 12s. The game you play in comp 12 in no way resembles the game you play when you drop on your own or in a 4 man.

Please tuck the e-peen back in. Stop "assuming" everyone else participating within this thread is lesser in some manner; that would be a good start friend

I'll explain this to you again since you didn't understand my last post - PPCs and ERPPCs already are penalized enough in terms of heat generation and fitting requirements to necessitate a charge-up as well. The regular PPC has roughly the same range as an ERLL, so I don't know if I would call it a sniping weapon that needs to be balanced with a charge-up mechanic. The ERPPC can be considered a true sniping weapon, but it's hot as heck and has a slower projectile speed than the gauss. You can easily rush an ERPPC user and slay him with brawling weapons. Again, why does this weapon need a charge-up? You can buff them and add the charge-up, but why? That solves nothing, and in fact just moves ERPPCs back closer towards being the one-step solution to every scenario again. LLs would likely become marginalized\outclassed, and weapon balancing would be thrown off once again.

Reading the OP again, it still reads like a whine for an easier gauss rifle. Hush hush my dear - I still use the gauss just fine on plenty of my personal mechs, ESPECIALLY for ones I use for competitive 12-man drops. It can be done, trust me. Adding a longer cool-down to the gauss rifle instead of the charge-up is nothing but an excuse for people who are too lazy to learn how to handle the charge-up mechanic.

"I can only assume your replies are based off of pug experience or casual 12s"

tl;dr Just lol @ this inane thread. OP & friends, you have no clue what you are talking about, sorry to tell you but someone has too.

Edited by Vulix, 23 October 2013 - 01:03 AM.

[Cerberias]

Mate, ive been playing 12's with players in some of the best clans in the game, ran a team that came second in the last LMS tournament (and beat SJR, the team that was undefeated in the previous one.. twice). Which tournaments have you played in? Please don't count proxis as competitive because the mech/weapon restrictions stop people from running 'optimal' builds often.

The charge mechanic is NOT EFFECTIVE AGAINST ENEMY POPTARTS. Lets just get it straight, once and for all.. a weapon with a charge up mechanic, is NEVER going to be as effective as one that does not. NEVER. NOT EVEN SITUATIONALLY, ITS NOT POSSIBLE THAT SOMETHING WITH A DRAWBACK COULD BE AS GOOD AS SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T HAVE A DRAWBACK. Now that we've gotten that drilled into your head.. back on track.

Thats why I want to put it on the PPC to make it a lot harder for anyone running this high alpha build to play against enemy poptarts.. it would make them into a much heavier fire support role. They'd be less of the supermechs that we see today (hgn733c, ctf3D as the main two) that can do almost anything very well. If you can name me an effective jumpsniper build that doesnt use PPC's.. well.. you cant actually.. so dont bother. Nobody in comp drops runs ERPPC's either, so that point is moot - dude, do you even run comp drops? And then you go on to say that you can 'rush the ERPPC'.. does he have nobody around him? Is their entire team running it also? You make so many rediculously poor points, backed up by terrible non-realistic situations, and then try to tell me that I have no clue? Mate, you're a joke.

Alright, I'm over trying to reply to someone who has kept his pug mentality. I will honestly reply with proper poise and grace to someone who actually makes a legitimate point.. but these half cocked replies with no substance push my stupid-o-meter into overdrive which turns me into a *******. Sorry.

Edited by Cerberias, 23 October 2013 - 01:31 AM.

[Grimnar]

Vulix, on 23 October 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

Please tuck the e-peen back in. Stop "assuming" everyone else participating within this thread is lesser in some manner; that would be a good start friend

I don't see how playing in pugs and casuals is "lesser"? Nor do I see how e-peen has any bearing on this thread or the subject it covers.

Vulix, on 23 October 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

I'll explain this to you again since you didn't understand my last post - PPCs and ERPPCs already are penalized enough in terms of heat generation and fitting requirements to necessitate a charge-up as well.

I can't speak for everyone else however personally I understood your view the first time, I simply do not agree with it. As with all opinions I can only attest to my personal experience and as such I see limiting the twitch shooting potential of the PPC as advantageous. With the exception of the BJ and Jager no mech can mount a Gauss as high as a Stalker can mount it's PPCs and Lasers so in reality what we would be "nerfing" is the ability for mid to long range builds to simply sit back and not have to worry overly about incoming fire.

As a member of a competitive clan yourself I'm sure you've seen the problems we had with the instant damage PPG and PPPG configs we had and now the PP10/20 builds. This suggestion is only an attempt to diminish the near stranglehold that these mid range weapons working in concert have on competitive play.

Vulix, on 23 October 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

tl;dr Just lol @ this inane thread. OP & friends, you have no clue what you are talking about, sorry to tell you but someone has too.

You are entitled to your opinion, myself and the OP clearly do not agree and that is fine however if you do not see any purpose to this discussion perhaps leaving would be the more apt choice?

[Lumpy Gash]

Vulix, on 23 October 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

Please tuck the e-peen back in. Stop "assuming" everyone else participating within this thread is lesser in some manner; that would be a good start friend

Well I'm going to flop my e-gash out and say, get bent, the Gauss charge time is ******** to begin with and has nothing to do with BT or any other Mech game ever, why people are content with just letting PGI plow their arses with what ever mechanics they want is beyond me now.

In short, yes you're right, I hope you have lube for all those "competitive 12 mans"

Edited by Lumpy Gash, 23 October 2013 - 01:59 AM.

[FinsT]

Cerberias, on 22 October 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Alrighty, where do I start Fin. Firstly, at high ELO the only shots people will generally be taking outside of a brawl, will be either jumpjet sniping or stalker popping, which is very hard to counterfire at the best of times, and even if you do they have a good chance of doing the same to you - only they'll be hitting you with a 30-40 point alpha to the exact same location - most of the time. ...

Jumpjet sniping - be my guest, this is easy. While they still go up, they can't aim any good. So if i see one going up, i know i'm safe and can melt 'em with lasers. If it's sniping, then there is good distance. So once they turn off jump jets to get a good aim and make a shot, there is still some more time before their projectiles would arrive to hit me (projectile travel time, some 0.3...0.6 seconds). Thing is, i can start melting their face before they turn their jumpjets off, if i knew where to expect 'em. Another thing is, noone said i need to melt their face while being stationary. Even tiny movement makes their alpha miss much of the time - and i definitely can keep lasers on them while doing a slight move.

Stalker popping, - much the same thing. In sniping, generally, it's quite easy to feel whether they can get a quick aim at ya, or not. If i see a stalker popping out whos torso is some 15 degrees or more away from staring directly at me, - i know i have quite ample time to melt their face with lasers. And, do not forget, i am not talking aobut laser-ONLY build; my own projectiles, for example UAC/5 ones, - whenever i hit, are more than enough to severe their aim much - thus severing their return fire much for the second i need to melt their face with lasers.

If i see they are likely to take a good shot at me before i could take a good shot at them, - say i was aiming at quite different location initially, and that stalker just pops out facing me directly, - i'd most likely be hurt no matter whether i'd try to shoot them with PPCs or lasers; not an issue. In such situation, the 1st thing to do is to move (either strafe or into cover); returning fire might be possible, and based on the distance and the stalker's behaviour, PPCs or lasers both can have an advantage, as i described in my previous post in this topic.

Spreading damage can be done by them, sure. But just the same, it can be done by me - since, again, turning the torso is not the only way to spread damage, because even a tiny move does it also. Even if we talk about a single alpha, - since projectiles have different speed, so, for example, PPC projectiles "land" a split second earlier than, say, AC/5 projectiles. This of course requires that i'd have legs of the mech not directly facing the attacker, - but this is easy to do even when sniping; just approach sniping spot "diagonally", so to say.

Bottom line? Some folks hate the need to keep one's reticule on the target for a full second, and love instant-shot weapons. Other folks hate delays between firing instant-shot weapons - and actual hit (projectile travel time), and love lasers' good features (less heat per point of damage, less tonnage, good range of ERLLs, infinite travel time, etc). Me, i see points of both, and use both types of weapons. Whenever i see one type claimed as superior, i come defending the other type. Should you try to say that lasers are "the" guns, - superior to any projectile-based weapons, - i'd come to defense of projectile-based weapons just the same. In my opinion, both types are "best" - one or other, depends on a situation; and high ELO people are ones who are expected to know this well, i suspect.

[Cerberias]

You can spread damage slightly, but its a lot harder to do it with weapons that hit instantly as opposed to weapons that take an entire second to do their full damage. Also, I think you've been playing against some seriously amateur poptarts, they only need to be in view for that 'click' any more and they've messed up, you aim during the cockpit shake, as you know where your crosshair is, and then as soon as you let go at the right height to just sneak your weapons over the cover you're behind, you're already lined up and boom, chestshot. Generally a good pop won't take more than half a second, tops. You're also assuming in all these examples that you know where they are, something you probably won't get from a good poptart, or at least not as often.. and youve got to assume if you know where they are, that they know where you are. To be in a position to shoot them they need to be in a position to hit you. I'd take a smattering of UAC's in the air (good luck hitting centre mass on a proper sideways pop) for a full alpha to the chest.. probably going to hit you side torso as you'll be staring at me waiting for your lasers to finish.. not to mention firing lasers at the same time as UACS on a moving target and you're going to miss with one or the other, or at the very least have some serious spread (lasers hitting on arm uacs hitting the other?).

Also, with stalkers, if you can see anything more than the top of their cockpit and their arms, they've done it wrong. Should put up your popping video grim, I don't think you're in view for more than a split second at the best of times. Also, 'moving' without torso twisting (i.e. moving and firing) will get you capped against a good player exactly the same way that standing still would, but that being said an XL jager and torso twisting just... no Oh and PPC/Ac5 have a very similar projectile speed, youd have to be moving fast to spread that damage between two locations, and even still, youve just traded 20 damage ct/10 damage st or 20 st/10ct for a 30 damage spread all over the mech (because the poptart isn't just moving in one direction, they're also moving up and down meaning you're more likely to hit legs and spread damage). Hitting legs almost never happens against an enemy without JJ"s. Oh and remember that shield side on the highlander, soon as he's taken his shot you're looking straight at it, and thats ~130ish armor you need to chew through before you even get to the parts that matter, you cant do due to your XL.

Overall, youve made the best counterpoint so far (even if it had almost nothing to do with the topic), and I do appreciate that. But youve got to stop assuming bad enemies, watch some of the SJR guys play in their poptarts on their livestream and you'll understand.

Edited by Cerberias, 23 October 2013 - 02:55 AM.

[FinsT]

Watching poptarts do their thing the way they do it does not make me to believe that it is the only possible, or the only effective, way to do it. YMMV, you know. If they prefer to do it the one way only, - or if they _can_ only do it one way only, even, - well, their choice (or, problem). I explained why and how lasers have their part - reasons are many. Doesn't matter how many poptarts i'd watch - the only way to convince me that lasers have no place in end-game, top-skill MWO play, - is to demonstrate, rationally, that most or all of my arguments for lasers - are incorrect. Some of my agruments were indeed demonstrated partially incorrect by your posts, Cerberias (for which i am mightily grateful, by the way!), - but far from all. So in general, i stand by my above opinion: lasers can be a backbone of some builds' alphas, and are not to be automatically discarded.

Thank you for the discussion, and best of luck in the field.

o7

Edited by FinsT, 23 October 2013 - 03:16 AM.

[Grimnar]

FinsT, on 23 October 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

- the only way to convince me that lasers have no place in end-game, top-skill MWO play, -

Just to clarify, Lasers do indeed have a place however the people that do use them accept that they will in all likelihood be less effective than a front loaded alpha of comparable damage. When it comes to playing against some of those really good players you simply can't afford to "waste" even 1/3 of your beam duration hitting that shield side on the HGN (for example) or the legs of any JJ mech.

I personally run ERLL on a couple of mechs however I understand that my raw damage would be far more effective if it were comprised entirely of front loaded damage (ballistics, PPCs) however for the role I play I have accepted the trade-off.

It's nice to see someone actively contributing to this discussion and I guess the main thing to remember is that everyone has a different experience and as such there will be a lot of unique points of view

[Deathz Jester]

Cerberias, on 23 October 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

Mate, ive been playing 12's with players in some of the best clans in the game, ran a team that came second in the last LMS tournament (and beat SJR, the team that was undefeated in the previous one.. twice). Which tournaments have you played in? Please don't count proxis as competitive because the mech/weapon restrictions stop people from running 'optimal' builds often.

The charge mechanic is NOT EFFECTIVE AGAINST ENEMY POPTARTS. Lets just get it straight, once and for all.. a weapon with a charge up mechanic, is NEVER going to be as effective as one that does not. NEVER. NOT EVEN SITUATIONALLY, ITS NOT POSSIBLE THAT SOMETHING WITH A DRAWBACK COULD BE AS GOOD AS SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T HAVE A DRAWBACK. Now that we've gotten that drilled into your head.. back on track.

Thats why I want to put it on the PPC to make it a lot harder for anyone running this high alpha build to play against enemy poptarts.. it would make them into a much heavier fire support role. They'd be less of the supermechs that we see today (hgn733c, ctf3D as the main two) that can do almost anything very well. If you can name me an effective jumpsniper build that doesnt use PPC's.. well.. you cant actually.. so dont bother. Nobody in comp drops runs ERPPC's either, so that point is moot - dude, do you even run comp drops? And then you go on to say that you can 'rush the ERPPC'.. does he have nobody around him? Is their entire team running it also? You make so many rediculously poor points, backed up by terrible non-realistic situations, and then try to tell me that I have no clue? Mate, you're a joke.

Alright, I'm over trying to reply to someone who has kept his pug mentality. I will honestly reply with proper poise and grace to someone who actually makes a legitimate point.. but these half cocked replies with no substance push my stupid-o-meter into overdrive which turns me into a *******. Sorry.

I hear MLG is recruiting, they like tryhards overthere.

[Cerberias]

Thankyou Finst for a great reply. You're right also, lasers are a great way to easily and cheaply (tonnage/space) boost an alpha of a mech. Used primarily in either close range fire support, or as a brawler, the medium laser is an incredible choice to pump that alpha damage up - but I also think they're much harder to use effectively than the burst fire weapons. (personally I like 2ac5/ac2/4medlas std engine jagers or similar) I do believe that a Jager has its place, and that you want to use meds to increase the potential burst damage of a mech in the right position. Personally, I don't often use my lasers on these sorts of mechs unless I need that fast injection of damage, simply because the damage to heat ratio compared to ballistics is lower, and these mechs I generally build around ballistics or missiles (or on the DDC, both). I just don't see lasers as an equally effective damage dealer at range, unless you're in cover and can outrange your enemy enough so you won't be hit (and popping effectively and sporadically), you're likely to simply lose the trade.

There are some builds that use lasers in comp play, I will admit, but these generally are on lighter builds, where the tonnage/space is more limited, or where there is a brawler focus on the build and therefore a large, standard engine is usually required. Such as;
The DDC 'warlord' uses ac20/3srm6w/arti/2medlas.
Centurion 9A - 2medlas 3srm6w/arti
Jenner - 5/6medlas (depending on build)
and there are a few more, such as the dual ERlarge light builds, or the dual ERlarge stalker build that is used more by the Australian teams, but used very effectively.

Once again, thankyou for a thoughtful and well written reply.

[Grimnar]

The thing to remember as well is that any damage that doesn't hit an engine covering torso section, or even damage that hits the less damaged engine covering torso section is in effect wasted. I realize it isn't that simple however when the goal is drop the enemy mech before he even damages you (Highlanders/Stalkers and to a lesser extent Victors) you are going to want every last bit of damage landing on the same section with the possible result of a kill.

So everyone shooting a PPCLander knows that whilst the CT is the desired target, damage to that right side torso is extremely valuable. However, any and all damage to the left side torso is wasted heat/ammunition. Unfortunately if you can hold a beam on a Highlander's CT or even RST he screwed up, the time he is "looking at you" just simply isn't enough to put 100% of your Large Laser into the same section. Add to that the fact he is travelling not only laterally but vertically as well and you begin to waste a lot of potential damage.

BTW I am of course referring to LRDF or Sniper fights here. Most lights won't be too fussed if their beam isn't effective (against the heavier targets at least) as they aren't on the field for their raw damage but the added versatility they bring.

Iron Harlequin, on 23 October 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

I hear MLG is recruiting, they like tryhards overthere.

Yes, great contribution there sport.

[Deathz Jester]

Grimnar, on 23 October 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

The thing to remember as well is that any damage that doesn't hit an engine covering torso section, or even damage that hits the less damaged engine covering torso section is in effect wasted. I realize it isn't that simple however when the goal is drop the enemy mech before he even damages you (Highlanders/Stalkers and to a lesser extent Victors) you are going to want every last bit of damage landing on the same section with the possible result of a kill.

So everyone shooting a PPCLander knows that whilst the CT is the desired target, damage to that right side torso is extremely valuable. However, any and all damage to the left side torso is wasted heat/ammunition. Unfortunately if you can hold a beam on a Highlander's CT or even RST he screwed up, the time he is "looking at you" just simply isn't enough to put 100% of your Large Laser into the same section. Add to that the fact he is travelling not only laterally but vertically as well and you begin to waste a lot of potential damage.

BTW I am of course referring to LRDF or Sniper fights here. Most lights won't be too fussed if their beam isn't effective (against the heavier targets at least) as they aren't on the field for their raw damage but the added versatility they bring.



Yes, great contribution there sport.

I wasn't talking to you, nor do I care about your or anyone else's extensive and utterly irrelevant gaming resume, you two can go touch epeens elsewhere.


Now to get back on topic, the gauss rifle is a viable weapon, not for everyone, and not for certain mechs, but it is a viable weapon. The PPC doesn't need a charge mechanic, that would further gimp the weapon. You'd need to reduce the heat, buff the projectile speed, and then get rid of ghost heat all together.


The debate however is all theoretical and irrelevant seeing as none of us are lucky enough to have the nifty little PGI nametag that would get the idea looked at. So just like the countless other "X needs to happen because of Y", "X is OP because of Y", "X should be whatever because of Y" threads it'll be casually archived and payed no heed by the ever listening [insert sarcasm] devs.