78 replies to this topic

[MadTulip]

where you kept the chassis, engine weight and weapon weights compared to TT we here with the locust imo see for the first time that this one particular rule doesnt scale well at the lower weight border with 20t and 25t mechs. the commando was affected by the rule a bit and the 20t is not viable because of this issue i believe.

i do not see any positive effect of this rule. most mechs are not affected. there is no cheese build beeing prevented by this rule as heatsinks define youre DPS in most builds, so you want to max those out in almost all builds.

if you take a look at below 200 engine rating engines for very light mechs youll notice that the additional tonnage required by this rule effectivly overly increases the weight of those smaller engines. it off tips the scale or balance or proportion that was intended by TT by the ratio of engine rating, mech tonnage and resulting speed and payload.

i see that you decided on the 250 +-25 engine rating gives or removes one engine internal HS compared to TT which i believe is a good decision. the only bad thing about that is that it just doesnt make sense to enfore a minimum of 10 imo.

please consider removing the 10 heatsinks minimum requirement rule.

Edited by MadTulip, 18 October 2013 - 02:35 PM.

[Tokra]

MadTulip, on 18 October 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

if you take a look at below 200 engine rating engines for very light mechs youll notice that the additional tonnage required by this rule effectivly overly increases the weight of those smaller engines. it off tips the scale or balance or proportion that was intended by TT by the ratio of engine rating, mech tonnage and resulting speed and payload.

No, it does now. The engines under 250 weight less because of the less heat sinks.
The remove of the rule only help these mechs that have ballistic weapons. or do you really want a mech with large laser or PPC with only 6 heat sinks? In best case you can get one free ton from one heatsinks for mechs that dont have more than one laser.

[Modo44]

You are not supposed to mount multiple big weapons on a 20 ton scout mech, nor a stupid alphastrike without cooling on a big one. Deal with it.

Edited by Modo44, 18 October 2013 - 09:53 PM.

[Ironwithin]

You either go fast or you go heavily armed, that's the decision you have to make with every mech, 20tonners included.

And yes, running 5 medlas for example IS going heavily armed for the locust. You have to make do with lower speeds and dismal heat-efficency.

People are way too used to the ridiculous toughness of the spider or the firepower of jenners when it comes to lights. You are not supposed to singlehandedly take on anything above your tonnage in any light and expect to survive.


The real problem is not the heatsinks. The problem is not having any incentive to play a fast, almost unarmed scout compared to stomping around in a heavy or assault 'mech. In theory scouts should play a very important role but with the simple teamdeathmatch going on now they just don't.


Edit: Playing around with the Locust on smurfy I do not even get where these complaints are coming from... you can use every single hardpoint on all the Locusts with a 190xl engine, ferro, endo, 3 DHS and max armor. That thing is wicked.

-153.9 kph
-5mlas+1extra DHS OR 1medpuls+4mg+2tons of ammo OR 1mlas+4srm2+1ton of ammo

That's awesome firepower for that tiny thing ! If only the srms weren't so "weird" with hit-registration right now...

Edited by Ironwithin, 18 October 2013 - 10:22 PM.

[XiloTheOdd]

yeah the locust is by no means meant to take on things head on it smeant for hit and run tactics or scouting tactics not pure combat.

some builds its great for combat, others its a better support role like a AMS buddy or long range Tag friend, or a Streak missle opportunist. and teh fact most of its setups aren't heavy on your heat you can stay with single heat sinks making it a cheaper mech to build for as well, and with its tiny size its great for water combat due to its difficulty to spot and the fact its foot heatsinks are always submerged. the 10 HS rule should stay, its fine the way it is and it keeps larger mechs in check from doing something silly, like a quad PPC hunchback or something.

[42and19]

I second, third and fourth this.

The complaint lies in the fact that that there is no real reason to take a locust or commando over a spider or jenner. They are heavier the jenner is a better brawler/striker and the spider a better scout.

This is mainly because you HAVE to use 3 tons to strap on heatsinks no matter what you may WANT to do with the mech. It makes little sense and limits the variety of the builds available for the locust and commandos. Nothing is more infuriating that having a heat efficiency of 2.0 and not being able to take off a heatsink to drop in another weapon...or a tag....or baps....or ams....or something.

I'm not saying that the locust is supposed to be an alpha strike master. It's a scout and a hit and run mech but even in these roles it's limited by the need to drop in those heatsinks.

Edited by 42and19, 19 October 2013 - 05:18 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

Modo44, on 18 October 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

You are not supposed to mount multiple big weapons on a 20 ton scout mech, nor a stupid alphastrike without cooling on a big one. Deal with it.

You think taking 3 or 4 heatsinks off a locust means "multiple big weapons" ???

That's 3-4 tons, not even a large laser. 3-4 tons is going to give you ams or bap and possibly masc in the future or more mg/srm/ssrm/lrm/ams ammo.

Stop talking nonsense the locust will never fall under the alphastriking crowd, even 2 LL is half its tonnage.

Also this debate should ONLY be for the locust and possibly the commandos, I havent seen anyone ask for the 10 minimum heatsinks to be removed on larger mechs.

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 19 October 2013 - 05:19 PM.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Exactly. The PGI version of BT and the TT game cannot be compared in this regard. The locust, and soon the fea, simply do not need 10+dhs on several models. Releasing this tonnage will bring these sub-par mechs into line with the other mechs available.

Do I regularly break 300 with the 3S? Sure. I've even broken 550, but that required a fuckton of effort and concentration, and a good bit of luck thrown in. If you make even a single piloting error with them, they pop like a full tick.

The V and S especially need to have this requirement taken away to meet their real potential, and the Flea is going to be exactly the same.

[Deathlike]

I don't necessarily have a problem with this for Light mechs, but making this change more global may cause newbies to try out the engines < 200 on various other mechs and complain how every map they play is like Mordor Terra Therma.

There will be really silly unintended consequences to this change.

[Ironwithin]

Removing the 10HS requirement for the LCT or any light is like trying to fix a broken arm by getting a haircut.

The 'mech itself is perfectly fine and working as intended with it's limited options for weapons. The real problem is there is absolutely no incentive to using any light except spiders or jenners because the only thing we have right now is deathmatch.
You don't need agile but fragile scouts in deathmatch, you need firepower and survivability. You have to be mentally ill to take a Locust out on the field for anything other than it's fun-value. Every other 'mech is better suited for deathmatch.

As long as cost, weight limits, actual reconnaisance and speedy achievement of mission objectives play no role at all in MWO all you can do is keep fumbling around with things that are inherently broken, risking to break even more stuff OR take the "pro-gamer" approach and min/max your highlanders and spiders.

[Mahws]

I'm really not seeing the dreaded <250 engine ballistic boat being an issue. If players want to field a horrendously slow, unmaneuverable death trap that should be their own problem. Slow engine speeds and less heatsinks are enough of a penalty already. The fact that no one seriously takes a 50km/h Jager already suggests that no one ever will.

Deathlike, on 19 October 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

I don't necessarily have a problem with this for Light mechs, but making this change more global may cause newbies to try out the engines < 200 on various other mechs and complain how every map they play is like Mordor Terra Therma.

There will be really silly unintended consequences to this change.

PPC don't do damage <90m. LRM don't under 180m. Streaks can't be fired without a lock. uAC5 jam. Ghost heat is a thing. Command Consoles do nothing. C.A.S.E. is useless for XL engines. Flamers don't really do anything.

New players have a thousand traps to fall into when it comes to designing their own builds. I honestly don't think taking 7HS instead of 10 even counts as one. It actually says, right there in the mechlab how many heatsinks your mech has. I don't think it'll take a lot of effort to figure out that less HS = more heat.

Edited by Mahws, 19 October 2013 - 07:19 PM.

[Modo44]

MonkeyCheese, on 19 October 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

You think taking 3 or 4 heatsinks off a locust means "multiple big weapons" ???

Yes. It would mean SRM16, multiple MPLs, or an AC2. Serious weapons for a 20 ton mech.

[Deathlike]

Mahws, on 19 October 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

I'm really not seeing the dreaded <250 engine ballistic boat being an issue. If players want to field a horrendously slow, unmaneuverable death trap that should be their own problem. Slow engine speeds and less heatsinks are enough of a penalty already. The fact that no one seriously takes a 50km/h Jager already suggests that no one ever will.


PPC don't do damage <90m. LRM don't under 180m. Streaks can't be fired without a lock. uAC5 jam. Ghost heat is a thing. Command Consoles do nothing. C.A.S.E. is useless for XL engines. Flamers don't really do anything.

New players have a thousand traps to fall into when it comes to designing their own builds. I honestly don't think taking 7HS instead of 10 even counts as one. It actually says, right there in the mechlab how many heatsinks your mech has. I don't think it'll take a lot of effort to figure out that less HS = more heat.

You don't want to be in a situation where a certain hot map (now or someday) will immediately stun-heatlock your mech. That's what I've been told by those in closed beta with regards to the hot point in the middle of Caustic before that requirement was instituted.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 October 2013 - 11:43 PM.

[Nonsequitur]

I don't mind the removal of 10 HS requirement for light mechs. They can fit more weapons using less heat sinks = more heat = more over heat shutdown = more easy light kills.

[ShadowSpirit]

Remove heat sink rule so you can put more guns on a mech? lawl

Hawken.

[Mahws]

Deathlike, on 19 October 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:

You don't want to be in a situation where a certain hot map (now or someday) will immediately stun-heatlock your mech. That's what I've been told by those in closed beta with regards to the hot point in the middle of Caustic before that requirement was instituted.

That had nothing to do with the 10 HS requirement. That was because in closed better there weren't any double heatsinks and the overheat mechanics worked differently. Overheating was far more of a thing back then, not the minor inconvenience it is now. Also the age of the super flamers when you could overheat people to death. And overheating cooking off your ammo and exploding you. Good times.

Back in the current day and age where things aren't even remotely the same though, I don't see that being a problem. A DHS build with only 5 in engine heatsinks would have the exact same heat efficiency as the same build with 10 single heatsinks. I run my commandos with 10 single heatsinks because there isn't enough room in them for the required doubles. Have yet to spontaneously explode (from heat, I spontaneously explode from AC/20 rounds all the time).

Modo44, on 19 October 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

Yes. It would mean SRM16, multiple MPLs, or an AC2. Serious weapons for a 20 ton mech.

Serious weapons it wouldn't have the heat dissipation/capacity to take full advantage of. Being able to fit the weapons doesn't mean you'd be able to use them.

A locust with SRM16 would play completely differently to a heavier light with the same missile load. Instead of being able to fire those missiles as often as they like it'd have to hit and run, disengaging to shed its heat load before coming back in. It wouldn't suddenly become OP or even really competitive, it'd just give ultra-light mech players more choices in how they'll be handicapped.

Edited by Mahws, 20 October 2013 - 12:15 AM.

[JD R]

You are ignoring the main problem. Locust sucks because of his armor. Less HS wont work laserbuild will get grilled like ssrm builds . You will only generate a lot overheating and dient push the locust.

[MonkeyCheese]

Modo44, on 19 October 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

Yes. It would mean SRM16, multiple MPLs, or an AC2. Serious weapons for a 20 ton mech.

So you mean this http://mwo.smurfy-ne...116b6c25f4b5cc6 because please tell me your joking right? That thing would pop from the pitiful normal armor as a locust anyway and 2 tons of srm ammo is not going to last long at all with 16 srms.
As for the engine personally for a 20ton locust anything slower than a xl 170 is seriously suicidal when more heavily armed and armored commandos, spiders, ravens, jenners and cicadas can all reach 150kph.

The 3m locust can already boat 5 medium lasers so that augment is pointless.

As for an ac2. Yes it is without backup weapons but I could already run that with a 170xl engine if I chose to http://mwo.smurfy-ne...17fcb5a80398273

I use to run a 145kph AC2 spider, trust me even with a back up medium laser and plenty of ammo to last a round it was not any kind of serious alpha meta style mech, A 4x raven or a cicada 3c are always going to outclass the spider and locust in the area of an AC2.

Your acting like the locust will become the new 3L ECM craven if we have another 3-4 tons to play with...

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 20 October 2013 - 12:38 AM.

[Modo44]

MonkeyCheese, on 20 October 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

So you mean this http://mwo.smurfy-ne...116b6c25f4b5cc6 because please tell me your joking right?

Yes. 4 less heatsinks would give it full armor, a laser, and 2 tons of ammo. Plenty scary for only 20 tons. In a similar fashion, the half viable ballistic heavy buids with no armor/no backup weapons/low ammo would suddenly be completely viable by just removing some (otherwise "unnecessary") heatsinks. Please quit whining already.

[MonkeyCheese]

Modo44, on 20 October 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

Please quit whining already.

Says the person afraid of a mech with 138 maximum armor and keep in mind after stuffing in 16 srms a volley with a full 12.5 full volleys aka 2 tons of ammo a match and this mech runs at a maximum of 150kph and as I said before the more heavily armed and armored commandos, spiders, ravens, jenners and cicadas can all reach THE SAME MAX SPEED of 150kph for your build and they can all hold more armor and damage potential .

Your proposed SCARY build here http://mwo.smurfy-ne...03b044bcd241f35

Please troll me harder unless you can come up with any serious reasons why this mech that is matched in speed with the commandos and outclassed in armor and potential by the other fast mechs I listed is not allowed to have any real build variety or allowed to carry any serious amounts of ammo outside of machinegun ammo.

Those 4 tons of heatsinks on a 20ton mech a quarter of its total weight is like having 25tons of heatsinks on a 100ton Atlas http://mwo.smurfy-ne...01ff1139b765357 because that is my main complaint about the locust, I have accepted the size of the mech and the fact that its armor is weak.

Not everything in a PC game has to carry over perfectly from the tabletop rules.

Modo44, on 20 October 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

In a similar fashion, the half viable ballistic heavy buids with no armor/no backup weapons/low ammo would suddenly be completely viable by just removing some (otherwise "unnecessary") heatsinks. Please quit whining already.

If you actually read the posts on the forums we are all discussing this idea for the 20 ton locust and possibly the 25 ton commando NOT HEAVIER MECHS... and if that quote means the AC2 Locust then im just gonna LOL because a single AC2 even at 170kph is not a threat with 12 points of armor on the ballistic arms.

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 20 October 2013 - 01:56 AM.