166 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Khobai, on 27 October 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

Its true, sensors give way too much information by default, I made this suggestion in another thread to try and limit how easy information was to get and make sharing of information more tactical.

The way sensors should work is that each mech should have a network range and mechs should only be able to share sensor information with other allied mechs if their network ranges intersect. I've created a diagram below to illustrate this concept.

In the first example, A is the only mech that can see 1 directly, but because D's network range intersects with A's it allows D to also see 1. B and C cannot see anything.

In the second example, D acts as a bridge, conveying the sensor information from A to B which in turn also allows C to see 1.





So how does this help Light/Medium mechs? Well for one we can assume they have much better sensors/communication equipment than heavies/assaults. So their sensor and network ranges would be much larger. A Light mech like the Raven could have a network range 4 times larger than an Assault mech, which means a Raven would be one of the best information sharers to have on your team.

This is similar to Chromehounds' system, which was interesting.

[Deathlike]

Roland, on 27 October 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

This is similar to Chromehounds' system, which was interesting.

It does seem better, but it would also promote the mega-blob in matches.

[Khobai]

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It does seem better, but it would also promote the mega-blob in matches.

Yeah unfortunately the only real way to discourage deathballing is a gamemode which forces your team to split up. The ideal gamemode is actually a combination of assault and conquest.

1) heavies/assaults should have to defend or attack the enemy base as the primary objective
2) lights/mediums should have to capture resource nodes as the secondary objective

I thought of some other ways to prevent deathballing as well, like implementation of C3 computers, which could allow you to network over a much greater distance with other mechs on your team that also had C3 computers. Essentially C3 computers would be like the current sensor system, but youd have to spend tonnage and crit slots for that advantage, which seems fair to me.

Overall I think my idea for changing how sensors work would make scouting a much more important role. Because you wouldnt necessarily have all the information at your fingertips unless you were inside the network with the scouts. Scouts would important because not only would they be finding the enemy but they would also be relaying that information across the entire network.

Edited by Khobai, 27 October 2013 - 07:54 PM.

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 27 October 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Yeah unfortunately the only real way to discourage deathballing is a gamemode which forces your team to split up. The ideal gamemode is actually a combination of assault and conquest.

1) heavies/assaults should have to defend or attack the enemy base as the primary objective
2) lights/mediums should have to capture resource nodes as the secondary objective

I thought of some other ways to prevent deathballing as well, like implementation of C3 computers, which could allow you to network over a much greater distance with other mechs on your team that also had C3 computers.

Overall I think my idea for changing how sensors work would make scouting much more important though. Because you wouldnt necessarily have all the information at your fingertips unless you were inside the network with the scouts.

Well, I figure one way would require a light mech being some sort of lance commander and what the lance commander sees, the entire lance would see. Ideally there would be 3 lights per team and all of them would be designated lance commanders...

The rest of the lance would kinda share with their limited FOV and/or less range, but the light mech would have the greatest FOV and spotting range.

However, given preamades and team construction, this wouldn't work the way it should and heck not all light players would be good at it...

Whatever I guess.

[Khobai]

Quote

Well, I figure one way would require a light mech being some sort of lance commander and what the lance commander sees, the entire lance would see. Ideally there would be 3 lights per team and all of them would be designated lance commanders...

Could also have an assault mech as the command mech with a master C3 computer. So the lights could send information to the command mech which would in turn send information to everyone else with a C3 slave computer. While anyone without a C3 computer would have to be inside another mechs network range to receive any information. C3 could essentially allow you to ignore the normal networking rules and connect with other mechs with C3 over much longer distances.

The point is the acquistion and transmission of information across an entire team should require some tactics/strategy. It shouldnt just be automatic. And light/medium mechs should be the most important part of that system.

Edited by Khobai, 27 October 2013 - 08:03 PM.

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 27 October 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

Could also have an assault mech as the command mech with a master C3 computer. So the lights could send information to the command mech which would in turn send information to everyone else with a C3 slave computer. While anyone without a C3 computer would have to be inside another mechs network range to receive any information.

C3 could basically let you ignore the normal networking rules and connect with other mechs with C3 over much longer distances.

The point is the acquistion and transmission of information across an entire team should require some tactics/strategy. It shouldnt just be automatic.

I'm not too big on C3... I just remember it being totally useless in MW3. I'm sure if looked into it further, maybe it'll change my mind. I kinda rather have it built in or at least reasonably tonnage/crit viable w/o sacrificing too much.

[Khobai]

Yeah there is a certain appeal to C3 just being built-in. But I do think the whole sensor system needs to be revamped so information is less easily available.

[Black Lobo]

Part of "Role Warfare" needs to be that there should be more roles to fill, other than "let's go kill the other team". Part of that would be to make missions longer, more diverse, more in depth, and less about killing and more about the objective. But I digress. Right now, the whole role of this game is one deathmatch after another.

[Khobai]

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Part of "Role Warfare" needs to be that there should be more roles to fill

Battletech has about 6 distinct roles. Command, Assault, Striker, Recon, Pursuit, and Support. Some of the roles are weight class specific like an Assault role is almost always an Assault or a Heavy. While a Recon role is almost always a Medium or Light.

[WM Jeri]

xhrit, on 25 October 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

Tonnage is not the balancing factor in Mechwarrior, nor is it the balancing factor in battletech. C-Bills or BV is. My raven cost 12.5 million c-bills. It should be able to kill any mech in 1v1 that costs less, up to and including any 100 ton assault that costs less then 12 million cbills, such as any variant of the stock Atlas.

The system is working as intended.

Think of it this way:

The Hindenburg weighs 100 tons.

The F-35 weighs 25 tons.

By your logic, the F-35 should not be able to shoot down the Hindenburg, because the Hindenburg weighs more. You are ignoring the fact that the F-35 costs way more.





100 tons v.s. 25 tons.

And your forgetting one very important fact. What happens to your F-35 if you say come out of the clouds and suddenly fly it through the Hindenburg? Bring back collision and lets have an honest debate. There is currently no risk to lights running right up to heavier mechs from collision. Physics is a law you cannot ignore but the game does ignore it so this example does not support your argument as it is a straw argument.

Edited by WM Jeri, 27 October 2013 - 09:55 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

aniviron, on 27 October 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Alas, he's too rich for my tastes- for that matter, they would all take MC (in the form of mech bays) that I'm just not willing to put in right now. Now, I ain't saying PGI are gold diggers, but they ain't messin' with no broke.

[Corbon Zackery]

Lights don't engage we hit our target, and flee.

As a example I use the popular Jenner.

I will fit my Jenner with a max weapon package of 4 m. lasers and a SRM 6 for a full 32 points of damage. I can run this on 14 single heat sinks. I can do this because I making one or two passes and then fleeing to my next target. I'm running a XL, Endo, and FF to keep weight down. 132KPH with speed tweak. This gives me plenty of speed, and cuts down on splash damage. Now all I need is a nice juicy target like a atlas moving at 43 to 53kph. Bye the time you figure out what's going on I will be gone. You might get a few lucky splash shots with your lasers. But you will have about 64 damage on your mech. That's 64 less armor point when you meet my buddies on the battlefield. Don't worry I get back to you after I put 32-64 points into one of your buddies. I will keep doing this until your combat ineffective or I die a horrible death. If I die well its only a 35ton mech so I'm expendable your atlas is not.

This has nothing to do with invincibility. The people who pilot light mechs know what there doing. It's no mystery or phantom abilities you just got strafed by a mech going 82 mph. At 50kph that's normal for a assault mech your going 30mph because your SLOW EASY TARGET!!

Edited by Corbon Zackery, 27 October 2013 - 11:38 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

KhanHeir, on 25 October 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

t-the records guys! And the numbers we cannot see for ourselves!

Search Alistair Winter. He has the numbers thanks to a select group of players who provided Match stats to him. You can see for yourself.

[Roland]

Quote

I will fit my Jenner with a max weapon package of 4 m. lasers and a SRM 6 for a full 32 points of damage. I can run this on 14 single heat sinks.

Derp?

[Krivvan]

Black Lobo, on 27 October 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

Part of "Role Warfare" needs to be that there should be more roles to fill, other than "let's go kill the other team".

"Let's go kill the other team" isn't a single role. There are many games with very clearly delineated roles that the game forces upon you that all revolve around killing the other team.

[Joseph Mallan]

Why use 14 singles when the base 10 doubles are more effective?

[WM Jeri]

Corbon Zackery, on 27 October 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

Lights don't engage we hit our target, and flee.

As a example I use the popular Jenner.

I will fit my Jenner with a max weapon package of 4 m. lasers and a SRM 6 for a full 32 points of damage. I can run this on 14 single heat sinks. I can do this because I making one or two passes and then fleeing to my next target. I'm running a XL, Endo, and FF to keep weight down. 132KPH with speed tweak. This gives me plenty of speed, and cuts down on splash damage. Now all I need is a nice juicy target like a atlas moving at 43 to 53kph. Bye the time you figure out what's going on I will be gone. You might get a few lucky splash shots with your lasers. But you will have about 64 damage on your mech. That's 64 less armor point when you meet my buddies on the battlefield. Don't worry I get back to you after I put 32-64 points into one of your buddies. I will keep doing this until your combat ineffective or I die a horrible death. If I die well its only a 35ton mech so I'm expendable your atlas is not.

This has nothing to do with invincibility. The people who pilot light mechs know what there doing. It's no mystery or phantom abilities you just got strafed by a mech going 82 mph. At 50kph that's normal for a assault mech your going 30mph because your SLOW EASY TARGET!!

Don' t think the OP it talking about your piloting style which is exactly what lights should do but rather the light that runs into the fray and spend 1-2 minutes outright brawling, mainly the spiders. They will even run right up on you directly under you trying to get under you gun depression and suffer no consequence from collision for me thats the biggest issue I see, don't really pilot assaults unless they are faster or have JJ's but thats what I see when I am shooting at them.

I have no issues at all otherwise with the working as intended. Just bring back knockdown then we will see the truly talented light pilots in my opinion.

Edited by WM Jeri, 28 October 2013 - 06:20 AM.

[Artgathan]

WM Jeri, on 28 October 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

I have no issues at all otherwise with the working as intended. Just bring back knockdown then we will see the truly talented light pilots in my opinion.

We'll see the extinction of lights mechs. No one will want to pilot something that is toast the second they accidentally clip another mech.

As others have pointed out, the primary role in MWO is destroying the enemy team. This comes in a few flavours (Brawler, Fire Support, Flanker) but the utility of mobility is limited. Capturing the enemy base can sometimes be an option, but due to the long capture times it's not feasible on anything except the largest maps (since on something like River City, the enemy Assault mechs can RTB before a pair of lights can capture it).

[Roland]

Artgathan, on 28 October 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

We'll see the extinction of lights mechs. No one will want to pilot something that is toast the second they accidentally clip another mech.

Well, we actually used to pilot light mechs back in closed beta, when everything knocked you over.

[FupDup]

Artgathan, on 28 October 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

We'll see the extinction of lights mechs. No one will want to pilot something that is toast the second they accidentally clip another mech.

A lot of the clippings aren't even the fault of the light. One thing I notice a lot when I drive my Lolcust is that when I play peekaboo with enemy mechs, my teammates sometimes forget that I'm there and thus ram into my butt at maximum speed, and stay there for several moments so I can't retreat from enemy view. I know that the Locust is a very cute and sexy mech, but that's no excuse to dryhump them when they're on your own team! So my teammates strip my already thin leg armor, and prevent me from running away. The last thing I need is for my team to also lock me to the ground.

Edited by FupDup, 28 October 2013 - 07:41 AM.