166 replies to this topic

[Barantor]

xhrit, on 27 October 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

Exactly. A scouts role is to find the enemy, then sow confusion, disrupt troop movements, seize high ground, destroy targets of opportunity, capture control points, exploit weaknesses in an enemy line, recover damaged mechs by bailing them out of a 1v1, or just straight up damage designated targets when the lance/company leader calls out what mech everyone should focus fire on.

I think I have discovered the issue here. The issue here is you are ignorant of actual real life military tactics, and or have zero imagination. A Jenner does not dig a spike pit for Atlases to fall in. They dig a kill box for Atlases to fall in.

I think part of the problem we see is that the maps we have are not the proper size to get the utility of the scout to it's proper context. Alpine comes close, but if you compare it to forest colony....

A scout needs to be able to sow confusion, or pull large portions of the enemy away from the main body so that your own main body can crush them, then move on to the tasty snack that the scout pulled away. With small maps this is impossible, since even if the scout pulls them away, with the slowest mechs still moving over 50kph they can get back in gun range if they figure out where the main body is.

Alpine helps because it has natural barriers that impede large mechs from going over (mountains) to help the main force. Good use of scouts and mediums can bait certain aspects away for the majority of the fight.

When you fight in a cardboard shoebox, the tactics become full aggression, not subversion, coercion or evasion. This is why many times in pugs you see a good push win. Might not be coordinated, but if one team uses full aggression and can down mechs in a timely manner they can win. Defense in pugs hardly ever works in my viewing, except on the larger maps.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 27 October 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

It also doesn't accelerate and turn like a scout. Yes, it's fast, but it doesn't get in and out of sticky situations with fluid grace like anything worthy of the title would.

The Awesome prances on the field... it does that because any predator that gets near it can't hear it run away.

You won't need grace for something that needs to jiggle and wiggle its way away from its enemies.

[aniviron]

Deathlike, on 27 October 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

The Awesome prances on the field... it does that because any predator that gets near it can't hear it run away.

You won't need grace for something that needs to jiggle and wiggle its way away from its enemies.

Awesomes, Hunchbacks... I like my mechs with a little armor plating on the endo steel, you dig me? A little less cushion, a little more pushin'. ;]

Edited by aniviron, 27 October 2013 - 07:13 AM.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 27 October 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Awesomes, Hunchbacks... I like my mechs with a little armor plating on the endo steel, you dig me? A little less cushion, a little more pushin'. ;]

Shouldn't you be all over the Kintaro then?

The Jolly Golden Boy has a lot of junk in that trunk.

[Foxfire]

Khobai, on 26 October 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

Your logic is just as bad. just because a raven costs 12.5 million doesnt mean it should be able to 1v1 anything that costs less. different weight classes should have different roles and the role of the raven should not be combat. ravens in particular should be sensor warfare experts.

The flaw in that logic is that only one of the Raven variants we have right now is dedicated to electronic warfare. The 2X and 4X were specific refits of the Raven to repurpose the chasis to a combat role.

If assaults and heavies didn't have to worry about lights, then what is the purpose of ever piloting anything lighter than a heavy? It is a different style of gameplay but shouldn't be any less deadly.

The only time it should be an issue is if you see a light wade directly into battle(and not hitting from the flanks and backs) without fear.. which is what is broken about the Spider.

[aniviron]

Deathlike, on 27 October 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Shouldn't you be all over the Kintaro then?

The Jolly Golden Boy has a lot of junk in that trunk.

Alas, he's too rich for my tastes- for that matter, they would all take MC (in the form of mech bays) that I'm just not willing to put in right now. Now, I ain't saying PGI are gold diggers, but they ain't messin' with no broke.

[Prezimonto]

Barantor, on 27 October 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

I think part of the problem we see is that the maps we have are not the proper size to get the utility of the scout to it's proper context. Alpine comes close, but if you compare it to forest colony....

A scout needs to be able to sow confusion, or pull large portions of the enemy away from the main body so that your own main body can crush them, then move on to the tasty snack that the scout pulled away. With small maps this is impossible, since even if the scout pulls them away, with the slowest mechs still moving over 50kph they can get back in gun range if they figure out where the main body is.

It's not the maps alone. Game modes with multiple objectives that need to attacked and/or defended, that had consequences in a series of matches, would give scouts something important to do. Changing how information is conveyed in the game would give scouts and faster mechs a lot more solid a role. Implementing targeting computers with synergies to support tools would give spotting a real place in the game. Finding ways to reward players for doing things in matches other than dealing damage/killing, in meaningful amounts so it can compete with damage/killing, would improve matters.

xhrit, on 26 October 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Brawler - heavy armor - up close damage
Fire Support - long range - far away damage
Scout - fast moving - flanking damage

Okay, I agree with your assessment of what roles exist in the game. It doesn't change the fact that they're all about dealing damage. That is the sole goal in the game, and that is totally contrary to everything I know about the mechwarrior setting.

Edited by Prezimonto, 27 October 2013 - 07:48 AM.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 27 October 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Alas, he's too rich for my tastes- for that matter, they would all take MC (in the form of mech bays) that I'm just not willing to put in right now. Now, I ain't saying PGI are gold diggers, but they ain't messin' with no broke.

I'll just work on making the Awesome dance to the Time Warp again.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 October 2013 - 07:48 AM.

[Xyuni]

Don't know about you, I play with a 300 ms ping and I can still occasionally shoot down a light with my heavy mech.

Of course, there are times where I missed every shot i made and got circled strafed to death.

Do I cry about it? No.... I laughed when I one shot a light, the light should have the right to laughed back at me at my occasional clumsiness.

[Khobai]

Quote

In the real world a Humvee is able to take out a tank just fine.

And in real life battlemechs would never exist. So any comparisons between real life and MWO get thrown out the window. What scouts do in real life consequently has zero bearing on MWO as well. All that matters is what players want the role of scouting to be in MWO. And whether or not PGI can reasonably pull that off.

Quote

It's not the maps alone. Game modes with multiple objectives that need to attacked and/or defended, that had consequences in a series of matches, would give scouts something important to do.

Agreed. the gamemodes need to force teams to split up more. the deathballing that occurs now largely makes scouting pointless because deathballs are so easy to find without dedicated scouts. Gamemodes need to force heavies/assaults to defend or attack stationary primary objectives while light/mediums have to split off to capture outlying secondary objectives.

Edited by Khobai, 27 October 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[Bagheera]

Khobai, on 27 October 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Instead of arguing about what scouting is in real life, what this thread should actually be discussing is what players want scouting to be in MWO. And how PGI can reasonably obtain that goal.

We tried that in another thread recently. From the sound of some of the responses, PGI isn't willing to sacrifice the "quick in, quick out" model enough to make scouting a viable role. Maps are too small with too much predictability (fixed objective locations, clearly defined pathing leading to a few choke/combat points, etc) and we get too much battlefield information by default for scouting to be useful.

[Khobai]

Bagheera, on 27 October 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

We tried that in another thread recently. From the sound of some of the responses, PGI isn't willing to sacrifice the "quick in, quick out" model enough to make scouting a viable role. Maps are too small with too much predictability (fixed objective locations, clearly defined pathing leading to a few choke/combat points, etc) and we get too much battlefield information by default for scouting to be useful.

Its true, sensors give way too much information by default, I made this suggestion in another thread to try and limit how easy information was to get and make sharing of information more tactical.

The way sensors should work is that each mech should have a network range and mechs should only be able to share sensor information with other allied mechs if their network ranges intersect. I've created a diagram below to illustrate this concept.

In the first example, A is the only mech that can see 1 directly, but because D's network range intersects with A's it allows D to also see 1. B and C cannot see anything.

In the second example, D acts as a bridge, conveying the sensor information from A to B which in turn also allows C to see 1.





So how does this help Light/Medium mechs? Well for one we can assume they have much better sensors/communication equipment than heavies/assaults. So their sensor and network ranges would be much larger. A Light mech like the Raven could have a network range 4 times larger than an Assault mech, which means a Raven would be one of the best information sharers to have on your team.

[Krivvan]

Julian Tifflor, on 27 October 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

what i do mind is lights rather go into the infight later in the game at conquest mode rather than capping points and i find myself with my jagermech sitting at cappoints since the lights left early cause they dont care to cap and often we do lose cause of it.

You shouldn't be sitting at cap points in a Jager. When Lights ignore a cap point to go into a fight, it is sometimes because they judged that they need to otherwise they'll lose the game. Conquest isn't just about capping points. If you just cap points and the other team has a huge mech advantage, you will lose. Sometimes you need to give up capping as a light in order to help the fight.

And you don't need to fully cap the point in order for it to count. You can leave the second it turns blue. Sometimes it's also more beneficial to uncap the point so the enemy doesn't get the score and it's a waste of time to cap it for your team.

Prezimonto, on 27 October 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Okay, I agree with your assessment of what roles exist in the game. It doesn't change the fact that they're all about dealing damage. That is the sole goal in the game, and that is totally contrary to everything I know about the mechwarrior setting.

Is it really? Every Mechwarrior that I've played has been about combat and dealing damage.

[xhrit]

Prezimonto, on 27 October 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

It's not the maps alone. Game modes with multiple objectives that need to attacked and/or defended, that had consequences in a series of matches, would give scouts something important to do. Changing how information is conveyed in the game would give scouts and faster mechs a lot more solid a role. Implementing targeting computers with synergies to support tools would give spotting a real place in the game. Finding ways to reward players for doing things in matches other than dealing damage/killing, in meaningful amounts so it can compete with damage/killing, would improve matters.

You are right it is not the maps alone - it is the overall engagement size. The role of scouting is just not that important at a lance or company level. It is not until battalion or regiment size encounters that scouting becomes essential.

sarna.net said:

Scouts operate in the dangerous role of reconnaissance for the main force, utilizing their speed advantage to complete the intelligence mission and avoid hostile weapons fire. Generally not used at the lowest lance levels, but reserved by larger tactical formations, they may also be sent on other specific-criteria missions.

Prezimonto, on 27 October 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Okay, I agree with your assessment of what roles exist in the game. It doesn't change the fact that they're all about dealing damage. That is the sole goal in the game, and that is totally contrary to everything I know about the mechwarrior setting.

Krivvan, on 27 October 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Is it really? Every Mechwarrior that I've played has been about combat and dealing damage.

lol? It is not like there has ever been a healer role in mechwarrior, or a crowd control role, or even a dedicated spotter role. Every battlemech has guns mounted on it, and those guns are on the mech to do damage. Every mech, no matter what role, is a damage dealer.

[Bagheera]

Khobai, on 27 October 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

So how does this help Light/Medium mechs? Well for one we can assume they have much better sensors/communication equipment than heavies/assaults. So their sensor and network ranges would be much larger. A Light mech like the Raven could have a network range 4 times larger than an Assault mech, which means a Raven would be one of the best information sharers to have on your team.

Love it. Much easier for them to fiddle with than sweeping changes to maps.

Krivvan, on 27 October 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

You shouldn't be sitting at cap points in a Jager. When Lights ignore a cap point to go into a fight, it is sometimes because they judged that they need to otherwise they'll lose the game. Conquest isn't just about capping points. If you just cap points and the other team has a huge mech advantage, you will lose. Sometimes you need to give up capping as a light in order to help the fight.

And you don't need to fully cap the point in order for it to count. You can leave the second it turns blue. Sometimes it's also more beneficial to uncap the point so the enemy doesn't get the score and it's a waste of time to cap it for your team.

MOG, why do more people not understand this?

[Khobai]

Quote

Is it really? Every Mechwarrior that I've played has been about combat and dealing damage.

and every mechwarrior ive played has always had the same problem with role warfare. its time to redefine what a mechwarrior game is.

[Krivvan]

Khobai, on 27 October 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

and every mechwarrior ive played has always had the same problem with role warfare. its time to redefine what a mechwarrior game is.

From my experience, every other Mechwarrior has had lighter classes be almost useless with the game revolving around the race to the Assault mechs.

MWO is the first Mechwarrior I've ever played where Lights and (to a small extent) Mediums can actually have a place and a reason to be piloted instead of an Assault. Even without tonnage limits, teams tend to need around 2-3 Lights.

It's by no means close to perfect, but I'd say that there already is significantly more role warfare in MWO than in previous Mechwarrior titles. All those roles having combat as a part of their role shouldn't be a bad thing.

[xhrit]

Khobai, on 27 October 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

and every mechwarrior ive played has always had the same problem with role warfare. its time to redefine what a mechwarrior game is.

Well if you look at past studios that have made Mechwarrior games, generally the very next game they make after Mechwarrior, is a mech game, using the Mechwarrior code, that attempts to fix every issue they had with Mechwarrior.

Mechwarrior 1 by Dynamix Studios became Metaltech: EarthSiege (and then Starsiege, and then Tribes)

Earthsiege gave mechs dedicated tank, support, and healer roles via regenerating shields, energy draining emp weapons, and nanotech repair pods. You could build a shield HERC for all your missile HERCs to hide behind, with a repair HERC keeping all of their internals topped off. Of course all that was ruined with Tribes, Metaltech's answer to Clans, when Metaltech became a first person shooter using elemental and protomech style combat suits.

Mechwarrior 2 by Activision Studios became HeavyGear I and II.

Heavy Gear had a complex system of information warfare with multiple sensor types with different weights and ranges, multiple stances and stealth modes, and the ability to put your radar into active or passive mode for better radar detection or evasion.

Mechwarrior 3 by Microsoft Game Studios became.... Mechwarrior 4.

Mechwarrior 4 added hardpoints.

Edited by xhrit, 27 October 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[Capt Sternn]

Go to Animal Planet and watch a pack of wolves take down an elk.

[Ghost_19Hz]

Role warfare lulz. I don't need a scout, i have a little drone that farts outta my back and peeks over hills. Yea they see him, whoop dee doo. i see what mechs they are and where they're going and two noobs just got baited into my team b/c they saw Flashy, the ******** butt drone.