Jump to content

"balanced" Mwo Has 75% Useless Weapons


106 replies to this topic

#81 focuspark

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Ardent
  • The Ardent
  • 3,180 posts

Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:46 AM

View PostBlack Lobo, on 27 October 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

I'd rather they made a game based on real life physics. If you want, I can bore the schumer out of everyone by talking about present day ordnance and how the things in MWO/BT Universe should measure up. I'm just saying, there was already a pretty damn good model drawn up, based on real life physics. Besides, this is all really just based on mid 80's and 90's tech, peppered with some futuristic (but attainable) tech that might be along in the next 50-100 years. Call me crazy, but I can say that physics should be my friend, not some made up BS to make life easier for the kids with little to no grasp of tactics.

If MWO were based on physics none of these 'mech would have legs.

#82 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:51 AM

View PostSandpit, on 27 October 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:


are you new here? lol This has been the state of the forums for 2 years

LOL try 11 years or more! Cause this behavior predates these forums by at least a decade.

#83 focuspark

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Ardent
  • The Ardent
  • 3,180 posts

Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:53 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 28 October 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

LOL try 11 years or more! Cause this behavior predates these forums by at least a decade.

11 years? Try 10,000,000; because the behavior began when the first two people began speaking to each other.

Humans, in general, assume themselves right and make blanket statements without actual facts to back them up as part of their nature.

#84 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:57 AM

View Postfocuspark, on 28 October 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

11 years? Try 10,000,000; because the behavior began when the first two people began speaking to each other.

Humans, in general, assume themselves right and make blanket statements without actual facts to back them up as part of their nature.

Nailed it!

#85 Tombstoner

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • Bridesmaid
  • 2,193 posts

Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:10 AM

75% usless weapons... not according to the devs and they make direct comparisons with Counter strike weapons usage in competitive play. 4 i be leave are used competitively. thus MWO weapons are much better balanced for competitive play then those in CS... just paraphrasing garth..... the original is burred in the forums but its 100% accurate.

He really did say this.

#86 A banana in the tailpipe

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 2,705 posts
  • Locationbehind your mech

Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:49 AM

View PostGalaxyBluestar, on 26 October 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

you can always trust the op to be wrong, every other thread he simply types in x mech with x weapons i regulary make 1000 dmg a match and now those weapons he uses are useless? just which side are you on the side where your skill makes many mechs and weapon systems good or are you really poor stuck with all these poor weapons? you can't be both.


You can't you refute the OP, attack his character. Boy that made you look intelligent.

#87 Wildstreak

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Civil Servant
  • Civil Servant
  • 5,154 posts

Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:01 AM

View Postfocuspark, on 28 October 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

11 years? Try 10,000,000; because the behavior began when the first two people began speaking to each other.

Humans, in general, assume themselves right and make blanket statements without actual facts to back them up as part of their nature.

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 28 October 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Nailed it!

Facts?
I don't need no stinkin' facts to be right! :)

#88 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:03 AM

View PostMerchant, on 28 October 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

Facts?
I don't need no stinkin' facts to be right! :)

Of course. This is the Interwebz!

#89 HBizzle

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 522 posts
  • LocationDC

Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:44 AM

Ghost heat is destroying play balance. Leads to boring same builds over and over. Need to do away with it and you will see more energy and missile weapons in use. Go watch some of the more elite 12 v 12 matches and it is people with heavy ballistics and maybe PPC's. Boring.

#90 Agent 0 Fortune

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 3,403 posts

Posted 28 October 2013 - 12:27 PM

View PostHBizzle, on 28 October 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Ghost heat is destroying play balance. Leads to boring same builds over and over. Need to do away with it and you will see more energy and missile weapons in use. Go watch some of the more elite 12 v 12 matches and it is people with heavy ballistics and maybe PPC's. Boring.


Do you remember what the game was like before the Ghost Heat Tax? It wasn't variety, it was people boating a single weapons system.

#91 Vodrin Thales

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 869 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 28 October 2013 - 12:35 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 28 October 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:


Do you remember what the game was like before the Ghost Heat Tax? It wasn't variety, it was people boating a single weapons system.


Multiple PPC's, or PPC's with gauss as I recall. Was little else around.

Currently it's mostly UAC5 or AC20 with PPC's. Light mechs use lasers and streaks. Cents us SRM's and lasers. That's about it from the competitive seen.

But lets not fool ourselves. Very few competitive games get enough balance that all of their weapons make a regular appearance on the competitive seen. By definition these players will always seek to use whatever is strongest, and this is rarely a mix of weapons.

#92 HBizzle

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 522 posts
  • LocationDC

Posted 28 October 2013 - 12:50 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 28 October 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:


Do you remember what the game was like before the Ghost Heat Tax? It wasn't variety, it was people boating a single weapons system.


And that actually makes more sense as far as how mechs would be built. Real world weapons systems focus on a few things and do it well. Same should be for mechs. Would change things from the ballistic heavy show we have now.

#93 Sir Wulfrick

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 872 posts
  • LocationIn a warship, over your planet :-)

Posted 28 October 2013 - 01:14 PM

I certainly wouldn't say that 75% of weapons are useless. This being said, I probably have an expanded 'favourites' selection. By means of some general observations, entirely my own opinion and as always YMMV:

ER-LL: By far my favourite weapon. I would personally marry one if I could :blink:

LB10X-AC: Very useful. My AS7-D mounts 2. If I can survive until the pivotal ~5 minute point, having an effective LB20X can brutally tear through entire teams of damaged mechs.

AC-20: A staple ballistic weapon for my Atlases.

U/AC-5: Good, and is absolutely brutal when it doesn't jam. I'm not sure where the balance point should lay with this weapon. I've used them to excellent effect, to the point where I've actually felt sorry for the pilot on the receiving end. Then again, they can be very frustrating when a pair of them both instantly jam after the first shot. Possibly the jam rate should be somewhere between 18-22%.

LPL: As a single weapon on a particular Spider build apparently it can be very effective. Personally, I've tried them a few times and have always gravitated back to the LL or ER-LL.

AC/10: Very effective in the right circumstaces but for my Atlases I always seem to find the -20 to be better.

MG: Don't use them. They appear to be effective late-game when used in numbers. Not sure I like the random crit chance mechanic, but there it is.

Flamer: ....??? I once fought a 1 x MG, 1 x Flamer Spider. I felt deeply sorry for the pilot and ignored the mech until the flamer became annoying as it obscured my vision. Not sure what the pilot was trying to do by flaming my Atlas in the face. It soon ended when his cockpit ate an AC20 round & 2 ER-LL beams. I've never seen them used competitively, not even once.

SRM's: Having used them on and off, as an empirical observation I'd say that the spread is too large when used with Artemis, and the hit detection is off. I'd also say that they appear to generate too much heat for what they usually achieve.

Anyway, just some random thoughts.

#94 Agent 0 Fortune

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 3,403 posts

Posted 28 October 2013 - 01:17 PM

This thread has prompted to review the weapons I feel are most effective (and least effective). Presented below are my opinions, and why I prefer one weapon system over another.

Autocannons: Overall, autocannons benefit from longer range, lower heat, and faster rates of fire (DPS) than their Energy counterparts. They also produce significant cockpit shake as well as blinding the target with smoke and explosions.

***** AC5 - mid weight, low heat, long range, and good DPS make the AC5 my favorite weapon. I generally run 2-4 of these weapons (in most cases 2xAC5 is a better choice than a single Gauss for similar tonnage).

**** AC10 – this weapon loses a point for weight and cooldown. The 2.5 second cooldown makes this weapon difficult to fit into a firing sequence without sacrificing its fast cooldown. Additionally its high weight makes it default to “boat”, but I have had some success with 2xAC10 + 2xPPC on Cataphract, Catapult, and Jagermechs.

*** AC20 – the critical slot requirement is the only real downside to the AC20. Otherwise the 4.0 second cooldown fits perfectly in any firing rotation. SRM, PPC, Lasers are all good combinations with the AC20.

*** Gauss Rifle - I didn't use these much before, they were too delicate and slow, and now they have a new firing delay, which also equates to a cooldown penalty. At 15 tons and 3.15 DPS they are a tough sell. However despite some of the negative aspects of this weapon, they are by far the best sniping weapon, capable of delivering 10 damage at 1100m, which is beyond visual range, targeting range, and most other weapons.

** AC2 – This weapon is too difficult to use without a Macro, primarily due to a bug were the weapon can generate too muich Ghost Heat Tax because of the Fast Fire pilot skill (which lowers its rate of fire to less than .5 seconds). In addition to this problem, even without the Heat Tax, this weapon generates a lot of heat, especially when boated.

** UAC5 – Once king of the Autocannons, the inability to fire this weapon in standard mode without a Macro has relegated it to specialty use only.

** MG – These do good DPS for their weight, but lack the ability to focus fire. They also have such a short range that it is easy to be drawn into the open just to add a couple of DPS; I tend to avoid them on Medium and heavier mechs for that reason alone.

* LB10x – This weapons suffers the same issues as the AC10, and a large damage spread. Every time I have tried to incorporate this into a build I end up going back to the AC10.

Energy:
***** ER Large Laser – This is my preferred energy weapon. It is light weight, and only produces 20% more heat than a Large Laser for 50% more range.

**** PPC – Even with the heat increase and Ghost Heat Tax, it is still very easy to run 2 of these and remain heat efficient. Additionally the 4 second cooldown standardizes with many other weapons.

**** Large Laser – Only slightly behind the ER Large Laser on my weapon list and only because the ER LL is that good.

**** Medium Laser – The generous Ghost Heat Tax allowance on this weapon, its light weight, and the proliferation of Energy hardpoints make the Md Laser standard equipment on many mechs.

** Small Laser – In almost every instance it better to take 1 Md Laser than 2 Sm Lasers; you are sacrificing 1 damage for 300% range increase. Which means if you fire at greater than 100m 1 Md Las is already a better weapon. I think this could be corrected with a slightly longer range and reduce heat to 1.0.

* ER PPC – The main benefit to this weapon is the 810/1620m range, however the projectile speed makes it inaccurate at that range. Additionally the heat load on this weapon makes it difficult to field more than 1, making this weapon more popular with lighter mechs. At this point Autocannons are far superior to the ER PPC in terms of ballistic speed, range, heat, and even tonnage (when factoring heat), while a standard PPC is equal everywhere else.

* Flamer – This weapons is useful only in specialized roles, it may see more traction if we get deformable terrain. The ability set trees/builds on fire to hide behind (IR and smoke) would make this a much more useful counter intelligence device.

* Pulse Lasers – These weapons are much less effective for the tonnage than their standard counterparts. I don’t know if my ideas will be more or less useful. I would like to see Pulse weapons turned into heavy brawling weapons. They would generate 1.5 more heat and do 1.5-2.0x more damage. Basically
Sm Pulse 6 damage 4 heat (4 max Ghost Heat Tax)
Md Pulse 9 damage 7.5 heat (4 max Ghost Heat Tax)
Lg Pulse 15 damage 13 heat (2 max Ghost Heat Tax)

Missiles:
*** SSRM2 – This is only weapon I use that reliably hits light mechs. Before HSR, at least I knew to lead an enemy with my lasers, now it is a crapshoot; sometimes you want to aim directly at them, sometimes ahead, sometime behind, most of the time it is best to just ignore them and find an ally who can scrape them off.

** LRMs – I have all but given up on LRMs, they currently require a spotter to be effective (another dedicated role, not frequently seen in PUG games), and spotting/TAG your own targets leaves you exposed to return fire for too long. Additionally ECM is the hard counter to LRMs and AMS is the soft counter, making LRMs an ineffective use of tonnage in most cases. Furthermore the reliance on additional equipment (ARTEMIS, TAG/NARC, targeting modules, etc) make them cost ineffective to purchase as a supplemental weapon; meaning that when players take LRMs they generally boat LRMs because of all the peripheral cost. LRMs are a vicious circle, and a weapon system that needs to be reevaluated from the ground up.

* SRMs – As a medium pilot I used to really enjoy SRMs (CN9-A and HBK-4SP), a lot of punch for low tonnage and heat, however the last couple times I used them I found them utterly ineffective. They didn’t appear to do their listed damage, or possibly missed or spread too far. I have gradually phazed them out of my builds in favor of Streak missiles or lasers.

#95 The Justicar

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 197 posts

Posted 28 October 2013 - 05:39 PM

View PostMadCat02, on 26 October 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Keep ghost heat


Stopped reading, opinion solidified.

NOPE.

#96 The Wee Baby Seamus

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 78 posts
  • LocationR'lyeh

Posted 29 October 2013 - 04:12 AM

All this thread proves is that there are a lot of different opinions and almost any weapon finds at least a small following of people who like it.

If anything this proves a good balance more than the opposite. If the weapons were truly unbalanced you wouldn't find people defending specific set ups that work for them.

It's beautiful that the customisation aspect of MWO allows for such a diversity of opinions. Arguing over these opinions as if they were facts however is nonsensical.


PS: on a personal note; if you dont like the LBX, try running a 3xLBX Ilya and close brawl with it. you'll have the time of your life.

#97 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 29 October 2013 - 04:21 AM

You actually nailed it Seamus. Well said too. :)

#98 HBizzle

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 522 posts
  • LocationDC

Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:55 AM

View PostThe Wee Baby Seamus, on 29 October 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

All this thread proves is that there are a lot of different opinions and almost any weapon finds at least a small following of people who like it.

If anything this proves a good balance more than the opposite. If the weapons were truly unbalanced you wouldn't find people defending specific set ups that work for them.

It's beautiful that the customisation aspect of MWO allows for such a diversity of opinions. Arguing over these opinions as if they were facts however is nonsensical.


PS: on a personal note; if you dont like the LBX, try running a 3xLBX Ilya and close brawl with it. you'll have the time of your life.


I would love a stand off in my 3UAC ilya and see how that works out for yah. :-o

#99 KharnZor

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 3,584 posts
  • LocationBrisbane, Queensland

Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:35 PM

Posted Image

#100 Stormyblade

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 187 posts
  • LocationSomewhere around Portland, OR

Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:45 PM

View PostThe Wee Baby Seamus, on 29 October 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

All this thread proves is that there are a lot of different opinions and almost any weapon finds at least a small following of people who like it.

If anything this proves a good balance more than the opposite. If the weapons were truly unbalanced you wouldn't find people defending specific set ups that work for them.

It's beautiful that the customisation aspect of MWO allows for such a diversity of opinions. Arguing over these opinions as if they were facts however is nonsensical.


PS: on a personal note; if you dont like the LBX, try running a 3xLBX Ilya and close brawl with it. you'll have the time of your life.


So much truth in this post...it's almost as though the poster actually gave his response some thought instead of simply whipping out e-peen KDR comments as many others did. ;) On a personal note, I enjoy firing my Gauss-equipped 'mechs. I do not enjoy taking 2 hits in the location and having my Gauss destroyed with > 80% of my ammo left. :)





9 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 9 guests, 0 anonymous users