37 replies to this topic

[Kaling of Titans]

I used to roll with 4x Artemis LRM 15's, and tried lrm 15 x6, On paper I should do a **** ton of dmg, but mainly due to massive heat, slow missile speed and AMS, on AVG I tend to get about 100-300 dmg per match. I decided to switch it up to 6x lrm 5's with artemis, 'cuz hey, if I am only hitting 30% of the time, might as well cut to the chase, a troll build in my mind... all of sudden, 300-800 dmg is common, hell I jokenly tease my team to do more damage than my itty bitty lrm 5's.


One thing I noticed, is that if I chain fire them, they kill mechs FASTER than non-stop alpha, not much faster, but faster of course if they have AMS, alphaing the missiles is faster. Difference is about 1-2 seconds. On a stationary target at a distance of 320m, I clocked an Atlas kill 21.75 sec for chain, and 20.83 sec for alpha LRM 5's. I also tested the dmg on LRM 15's against the Atlas. Chaining took 18.75 seconds, and Alpha's took 19.61 seconds. longer due to 2x shutdowns.

All tests were done in Frozen city. I would test 6x lrm 15's, but I REALLY do not want to spend 1+million CB for this. The 4x LRM test tells me I will shut down more often thus longer kill time.

Heat was a major issue for the LRM 15's, both in chaining and alpha. I was at 90% from 100% by the time the Atlas died. Heat was NOT an issue at all for the LRM 5's. When chained, max it got was 17% by the time the Atlas died. , with Alpha's 33%.

Granted these timers and heat problems will change map to map, but it does show that even though the lrm 15's on paper should do more dmg, the lrm 5's are simply better.
But I guess this falls into pro's can cons really. lrm 5's do less upfront dmg, but make up for it in sustained dmg, while lrm 15's and 20's pack a punch, just not very often.

What are your guy's thoughts?

[Highlet]

Rate of fire is higher so sustained dps is higher.

[CouchDweller]

Well Lrm 10's and 5's pack more of a punch only when chain firing and they're all hitting in succession only because of their tighter grouping pattern. When all those missles are hitting more dead center, then less are going to miss. The LRM 15's and 20's having a larger grouping run the risk of maybe clipping a cliff on the way over to the target, or when they finally get there, if its a medium or small mech, most of the shots miss off to the side.

EDIT: P.S. Lrm 5's are a nightmare to me as a light mech.

Edited by CouchDweller, 30 October 2013 - 11:39 AM.

[KharnZor]

Love when i see lrm5's being chain fired. Draws a nice line back to the target. Then they die.
It sure is annoying tho when you don't have an ams sometimes.

[Oni Ralas]

LRM's are working as intended™

[A banana in the tailpipe]

LRMs are still worthless unless you boat them which is my main concern since I run mostly mediums and lights.

[Bagheera]

Kaling of Titans, on 30 October 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

What are your guy's thoughts?

5's have a tighter spread, and chaining them - for whatever reason - seems to aid in mitigating the spread of damage. Which is really counter-intuitive, but there ya go.

Also faster RoF as well.

[Krivvan]

lockwoodx, on 30 October 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

LRMs are still worthless unless you boat them which is my main concern since I run mostly mediums and lights.

Is it really wrong for a weapon to not be suited to a weight class though? That seems perfectly fine to me.

LRMs may be subpar, but not because you can't run them on lights.

[FinsT]

To OP.

All LRM systems except LRM5s form "LRM linked penalty group". This means, whenever you fire more than 2 LRM10s, or more than 2 LRM15s, or more than 2 LRM20s, or more than 2 in some combination (for example, when you alpha LRM10+LRM15+LRM20) - in all those cases you get ghost heat, which can be pretty large.

Soltuion: never fire more than a pair of "larger than LRM5" systems in any given 0.5s period.

Another thing is, different mechs have different number of tubes into them. For example, some stalkers have 2 missile slots each being 10 tubes max, and 2 missile slots being 6 tubes max. This can be used intentionally to produce LRM5-like tighter grouping while using larger LRM systems (like LRM20). For example, LRM20 installed in max-tubes=6 missile slot - will fire its missiles in 4 salvoes (automatically): 6+6+6+2.

Another thing is, LRM5 definitely has its benefits, but so do larger LRM systems. Let's compare 6xLRM5 to 3xLRM20:
DPS (damage per second), max: 10.14 vs 13.89
HPS (heat per second): 3.72 vs 3.78 // assuming pilot avoids to alpha 3xLRM20s and gets no ghost heat
Tonnage, without ammo, with Artemis: 18 vs 33
Slots, with Artemis: 12 vs 18

So you see, with LRM20s, for almost double tonnage (without ammo), and for 1.5 more occupied slots, one can get almost 40% higher max DPS for practically same heat per second. Truth that many mechs can't equip 3xLRM20s due to missile slots placements and/or tonnage limits; but it's also true quite few mechs in the game can use 6xLRM5s, too.

Assault-class missile boats, which have plenty of tonnage and no massive need for endosteel structure, - are definitely ones to be interested in LRM20s. Lighter heavies and mediums are mechs which can indeed overall benefit more out of LRM5s.

Edited by FinsT, 31 October 2013 - 12:19 AM.

[Komagn]

lockwoodx, on 30 October 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

LRMs are still worthless unless you boat them which is my main concern since I run mostly mediums and lights.

I use them in "some" mediums and they work out ok. HBJK-4J with 2xLRM10s. I soften them up at distance before they get in close to deal with lasers. Of course ECM heavy opponents makes it dead weight. You take the good with the bad. I also use LRMs on one of my Trebuchets as well. Also (don't laugh), my HBK-4SP has 5xML 1xSRM6 1xLRM15. Again, soften them up before they get in close.

[Jon Gotham]

FinsT, on 31 October 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

To OP.

All LRM systems except LRM5s form "LRM linked penalty group". This means, whenever you fire more than 2 LRM10s, or more than 2 LRM15s, or more than 2 LRM20s, or more than 2 in some combination (for example, when you alpha LRM10+LRM15+LRM20) - in all those cases you get ghost heat, which can be pretty large.

Soltuion: never fire more than a pair of "larger than LRM5" systems in any given 0.5s period.

Another thing is, different mechs have different number of tubes into them. For example, some stalkers have 2 missile slots each being 10 tubes max, and 2 missile slots being 6 tubes max. This can be used intentionally to produce LRM5-like tighter grouping while using larger LRM systems (like LRM20). For example, LRM20 installed in max-tubes=6 missile slot - will fire its missiles in 4 salvoes (automatically): 6+6+6+2.

Another thing is, LRM5 definitely has its benefits, but so do larger LRM systems. Let's compare 6xLRM5 to 3xLRM20:
DPS (damage per second), max: 10.14 vs 13.89
HPS (heat per second): 3.72 vs 3.78 // assuming pilot avoids to alpha 3xLRM20s and gets no ghost heat
Tonnage, without ammo, with Artemis: 18 vs 33
Slots, with Artemis: 12 vs 18

So you see, with LRM20s, for almost double tonnage (without ammo), and for 1.5 more occupied slots, one can get almost 40% higher max DPS for practically same heat per second. Truth that many mechs can't equip 3xLRM20s due to missile slots placements and/or tonnage limits; but it's also true quite few mechs in the game can use 6xLRM5s, too.

Assault-class missile boats, which have plenty of tonnage and no massive need for endosteel structure, - are definitely ones to be interested in LRM20s. Lighter heavies and mediums are mechs which can indeed overall benefit more out of LRM5s.

Thanks for posting this, very insightful+1

[Zyllos]

For some reason, LRM launcher sizes act different. A LRM/5 is MUCH more accurate than all the other launchers, which shouldn't be the case. LRM/5s basically only hit torso sections.

What needs to happen is that when LRMs are fired, chunks of LRMs should act in the same manner, differing only in the number of chunks that each launcher fires.

Swarms, or 5 LRMs, should fire in patterns just like LRM/5 does now, but each swarm targets a specific bone, just like SSRMs.

Then, the accuracy/damage for each LRM launcher wouldn't matter. Instead, the overall DPS should change in relation to the tonnage and ability for the single launcher to bypass AMS.

Thus, smaller launchers are tonnage efficient and good in DPS but are terrible against AMS while larger launchers are less tonnage efficient and DPS but extremely good in bypassing AMS and applying a lot of damage up front.

Edited by Zyllos, 31 October 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

I'd consider trying 4 LRM5s, and 2 larger launchers in a Cat A1, this way you can get the bigger punch of large launches combined with no ghost heat.

[aniviron]

Komagn, on 31 October 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

I use them in "some" mediums and they work out ok. HBJK-4J with 2xLRM10s.

You pilot a HBK-4J? Are you... are you a unicorn?

[Ngamok]

aniviron, on 31 October 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

You pilot a HBK-4J? Are you... are you a unicorn?

I mastered all 5 Hunchbacks because I love 'em. Bring on the Hero one in December. Also, my Founder's mech I picked is the HBK-4G.

[HC Harlequin]

FinsT, on 31 October 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

To OP.

Another thing is, LRM5 definitely has its benefits, but so do larger LRM systems. Let's compare 6xLRM5 to 3xLRM20:
DPS (damage per second), max: 10.14 vs 13.89
HPS (heat per second): 3.72 vs 3.78 // assuming pilot avoids to alpha 3xLRM20s and gets no ghost heat
Tonnage, without ammo, with Artemis: 18 vs 33
Slots, with Artemis: 12 vs 18

So you see, with LRM20s, for almost double tonnage (without ammo), and for 1.5 more occupied slots, one can get almost 40% higher max DPS for practically same heat per second. Truth that many mechs can't equip 3xLRM20s due to missile slots placements and/or tonnage limits; but it's also true quite few mechs in the game can use 6xLRM5s, too.

You obviously haven't bothered to actually test what you "think" is happening.
The reality is LRM15/20 racks, especially out of a true 15/20 missile tube arrangement have ALWAYS at least between 5 and 7 missiles miss to either side of the mech because even on a stationary Awesome the spread, even with Artemis, is larger than the targetted mech. It's so broken that an Atlas can dodge just by moving normal speed over 90% of an LRM15/20 rack shot. LRM5's on the other hand always track the full spread to the dead center of the mech. This means an alpha of 4 LRM5's with a faster cooldown, tighter spread and 3 tons less (because you dont' need artemis) is a better LRM20 than an LRM20 will ever be.

kamiko kross, on 31 October 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Thanks for posting this, very insightful+1

Insightful and so very very wrong.

[Taemien]

MWO has to be the first MW game where LRM5s were actually useful.

[Shifty Eyes]

So I bought a CAT C-4 (I know, everyone laugh at me) for the sole purpose of being able to sling a pair of LRM-20s in one volley, thinking it would be awesome.

Although I've been able to **** some serious face with artemis and at optimum range (300m or so, which is really medium range...) on occasion, it's a lot of wasted tonnage when using it for indirect fire because of the massive spread.

I think this is ridiculously silly, as more missile tubes should be a huge plus in a chassis, not a detriment. There are very few mechs with 20-tube missile slots.

Just one of the many oversights in this game I guess.

[JimboFBX]

as it stands right now, you want to use lrm 5s unless you are lacking in hardpoints.

my issue is that lrm20s are only marginally more effective than lrm 5s but have the longer cooldown and higher tonnage. it makes more sense to stick your tonnage elsewhere than to upgrade your missile sizes.

[Taemien]

JimboFBX, on 13 November 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

as it stands right now, you want to use lrm 5s unless you are lacking in hardpoints.

my issue is that lrm20s are only marginally more effective than lrm 5s but have the longer cooldown and higher tonnage. it makes more sense to stick your tonnage elsewhere than to upgrade your missile sizes.

I dunno, I kinda like it that way. Its like an AC20 is used when you have limited ballistic hardpoints. But if you can throw on a bunch of AC5s instead, go for it.

I'm going to have to give LRM5s a shot. I'm usually using LRM10s or 15s when I go with LRMs. After seeing a few threads pop up about LRM5s being OP, I'm going to have to wager they are actually worth using for once.

Now if we can get a purpose to SRM2s, we'll be golden.