100 replies to this topic

[Adridos]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 13 November 2011 - 06:34 AM, said:

Then again, that's the quality that I expect from Bethesda these days.

At least it's partly real. You can't see he has stolen something with a bucket on your head.

[HIemfire]

I will give you that this is well written and accurate. I see one problem, we are not playing as actual House units (setting aside what people are planning on naming them for the moment) but loyal mercenary groups. The Clans despise anyone who fights for the highest bidder (mercs). Now how are they going to translate that over if they add the Clans? Are they going to allow people to join a Clan (Ghost Bear, Wolf, Jade Chicken.. lol Falcon, etc.) by Trial of Position ( I think that is the one that fits, not sure)? Or are the Clans just going to be a story line feed while the House hired mercs continue to bash each other's brains in and just enjoy the more expensive tech that is trickling in from the front line's battlefield salvage?

I still see them (the Clans) as wrongfully arrogant and hypocritical (the latter part applies to the Crusader Clans mainly) lunatics who have twisted Aleksandr's dream into a farce. Probably thanks to an unstable successor (Nicholas). You don't have to agree, its just the way I see them. Blood thirsty madmen bent on domination. Honor code or no, they still are targets. Get used to the opposition's mindset Tankborne, it will define interactions to come.

[Amechwarrior]

hiemfire, on 13 November 2011 - 06:54 AM, said:

The Clans despise anyone who fights for the highest bidder (mercs). Now how are they going to translate that over if they add the Clans? Are they going to allow people to join a Clan (Ghost Bear, Wolf, Jade Chicken.. lol Falcon, etc.) by Trial of Position ( I think that is the one that fits, not sure)? Or are the Clans just going to be a story line feed while the House hired mercs continue to bash each other's brains in and just enjoy the more expensive tech that is trickling in from the front line's battlefield salvage?

We honestly do not know. All we can do is speculate until we get real information. I would not be surprised if we were not able to play as Clans during the invasion, then we can all come together to join in the first massive in game event of Tukayyid, each house fighting one of the Comstar/Clan battles. Then once the invasion is stopped they could make the Clans join-able.

EDIT: This would explain the lack of a Comstar faction in the House Boards as well.

Edited by Amechwarrior, 13 November 2011 - 07:10 AM.

[Stormwolf]

hiemfire, on 13 November 2011 - 06:54 AM, said:

I still see them (the Clans) as wrongfully arrogant and hypocritical (the latter part applies to the Crusader Clans mainly) lunatics who have twisted Aleksandr's dream into a farce. Probably thanks to an unstable successor (Nicholas). You don't have to agree, its just the way I see them. Blood thirsty madmen bent on domination. Honor code or no, they still are targets. Get used to the opposition's mindset Tankborne, it will define interactions to come.

There is a lot more to the invasion then you'd expect. It essentially boiled down to the strife between Wardens and Crusaders, the Crusader cause got the upperhand when the Outbound Light showed up.

I view myself more as a Crusading Warden, I'm not shedding any tears that my Clan lost the Trial of Refusal for Operation Revival.
The Clans should establish a new Star League, but we shouldn't treat the people on the conquered worlds like ****.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Not too many mercs in House Kurita, I'd reckon.
It wasn't until after the Battle of Luthien that Takashi Kurita softened the "Death to Mercenaries" edict.
The only merc units that participated in that battle were the Wolf's Dragoons and the Kell Hounds.

Other merc companies that I can find (CGB and CSJ invasion corridors).
Blue Lightning (Kaesong), Sheliak Professional Football League (Sheliak), The Goldminers (Mannedorf), 7th Hell's Brigade (Virenlofta), The Dark Horns (Sawyer), ¿Colette's Crusaders? (Coudoux), Rolling Thunder (Savinsville), Wolf's Dragoons (Luthien), Kell Hounds (Luthien).

So that's 8 Merc Companies and 1 local planetary Football team.
With the Wolf's Dragoons and Kell Hounds in the service of the FedCom-to-be.
Leaving only six merc units in the DC's employment to face the clans.

Chances are much bigger to be part of a milita or district regulars than as a merc unit.

Oh, and in case of the Football team - they lost. 85 to 3.

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 13 November 2011 - 08:17 AM.

[feor]

Quote

Oh, and in case of the Football team - they lost. 85 to 3.

Best trial of possession during Operation Revival.

"Hey, these are weird alien people, they won't know anything about our customs or sports, lets challenge them to a football game!"
...
"What do you mean they brought a whole team of Elementals?!?"

And as I recall they took the kicker Bondsman after the game for actually getting the field goal in.

Edited by feor, 13 November 2011 - 10:00 AM.

[Kudzu]

Adridos, on 13 November 2011 - 03:01 AM, said:

Superior numbers were not the reason behind their deaths. Persian warriors almost could not touch them with their weapons. It was not more than trying to destroy a tank with wooden stick. But Persians got to them from behind, so other Greeks fled (still about 2 000 stayied along the 300 Spartans) and when the Greeks had to split up, they lost their precious advantage, their tactic was of no use anymore (phalang) and they slowly died 1 by 1. I would be really sad, if I could not even scratch the Clan mechs.

Had it been equal numbers you don't think that they could have shifted part of their phalanx around to cover their rear?


Oh, the football team and the fistfight with the big guy (I think it was one of the training academies but I could be wrong) are some of the best bids.

[zax]

Adridos, on 13 November 2011 - 05:51 AM, said:

OK, HAVE YOUR MECHASSAULT WITH COD PLAYERS WHO MADE A MISTAKE AND LEARNED ABOUT GAME WITH BIG GUNS AND LAZORS WHERE YOU SHOOOOOOOOOOOOOT. "pew, pew, pew.... I like this abomination"

People, you must understand that EVERY game has its limits and is made for different people. You can't just strip the game of all its features, because some ***** will like going with the biggest, talliest, most OP pice of ***** called mech and will pay 3 cents to have even bigger gun. That's why CS isn't arena game, so everyone will like it. That's why serious games don't have autoheal. That's why strategic games are about something more, than just A-moving. That's why you have to use the whole keyboard in simulators. That's what makes those games unique and appealing to everybody. Devs don't care if some 12-years play their game, because they will pirate it, or in the case of F2P won't support anything.

Sorry for my rage and bad language, but some people drive me mad.

Wow, overreact much? All I'm stating is common sense. You sound like one of those purists who believes that if the game does not strictly adhere to all tabletop conventions, it's an abomination and must be burned at the stake. Seriously, chill the **** out.

The clan philosophy of 1v1 combat DOES NOT WORK when you have any players in the game who do not know or agree to such rules. The only way you would enforce such a game-type is if you prevented players from doing damage to anybody else after they hit their first opponent. Penalize the player for not finishing a 1v1 fight? How does that work when an opponent decides to run away or relocate? That's right, it doesn't.

The only way you balance clan tech, which is superior to IS tech in all ways, is to have the clans outnumbered at all times. Forcing 2:1 odds (obviously the ratio can be balanced through game testing) is probably the only balance necessary.

The strange, arbitrary rules of clan honor only work in a private league where all players are on the same page and all players agree to adhere to those rules.

[feor]

zax, on 13 November 2011 - 11:05 AM, said:

The clan philosophy of 1v1 combat DOES NOT WORK when you have any players in the game who do not know or agree to such rules. The only way you would enforce such a game-type is if you prevented players from doing damage to anybody else after they hit their first opponent. Penalize the player for not finishing a 1v1 fight? How does that work when an opponent decides to run away or relocate? That's right, it doesn't.

The only way you balance clan tech, which is superior to IS tech in all ways, is to have the clans outnumbered at all times. Forcing 2:1 odds (obviously the ratio can be balanced through game testing) is probably the only balance necessary.

No, like I said, you just arrange a system by which the game tracks any violations of the dueling code (for or against the player in question) and if in the end the player has ends up having acted dishonourably, you curtail the rewards he gets for the mission.

So sure, yo can ignore honour and simply annihilate your enemies, but if they fought honorably and you didn't your commanding officer may be so disgusted by your performance that he refuses to allow you to claim any of the salvage taken as isorla during the battle, and you get severly reduced Experience for the mission.

[Adridos]

zax, on 13 November 2011 - 11:05 AM, said:

Wow, overreact much? All I'm stating is common sense. You sound like one of those purists who believes that if the game does not strictly adhere to all tabletop conventions, it's an abomination and must be burned at the stake. Seriously, chill the **** out.

I do not even know the rules, let alone decide about the fate of the game by them. I just do not like the idea of making the game for casual gamers. It will be making IS and Clan mechs equal. Restricting the controls from the keyboard to just mouse (turning torso, firing, zooming, ...) and after accepting those suggestions, we will get a game called Mechwarrior, but it will be just FPS with mech skins.

I prefer it being more hardcore and made for only about 100 000 people, than being a game for everyone, with noone playing.

[feor]

Adridos, on 13 November 2011 - 11:51 AM, said:

I do not even know the rules, let alone decide about the fate of the game by them. I just do not like the idea of making the game for casual gamers. It will be making IS and Clan mechs equal. Restricting the controls from the keyboard to just mouse (turning torso, firing, zooming, ...) and after accepting those suggestions, we will get a game called Mechwarrior, but it will be just FPS with mech skins.

I prefer it being more hardcore and made for only about 100 000 people, than being a game for everyone, with noone playing.

The problem is that a F2P game with 100,000 people playing will very quickly go out of business, and then there still won't be anyone playing.

[Adridos]

feor, on 13 November 2011 - 11:55 AM, said:

The problem is that a F2P game with 100,000 people playing will very quickly go out of business, and then there still won't be anyone playing.

Normal F2P. This is the only game from the popular franchise after 10 years and players are mostly 30-50. They do not have problems with paying for their favorite game. Normal F2P has mostly 10-15 year olds and they have very big problem paying for something / convincing their parents.

[Steadfast]

But those 30-50ish players will most certainly ***** and moan much more than the usual f2p crowd, BECAUSE they pay to play Anyhow, lets hope this will be as much fun as I expect it to be. Just pure and simple. And Iam reaching here, be it claner or IS.
~B~
Daniel

[zax]

feor, on 13 November 2011 - 11:35 AM, said:

No, like I said, you just arrange a system by which the game tracks any violations of the dueling code (for or against the player in question) and if in the end the player has ends up having acted dishonourably, you curtail the rewards he gets for the mission.

So sure, yo can ignore honour and simply annihilate your enemies, but if they fought honorably and you didn't your commanding officer may be so disgusted by your performance that he refuses to allow you to claim any of the salvage taken as isorla during the battle, and you get severly reduced Experience for the mission.

Which, as I pointed out, does not work. There is nothing that prevents a player from simply walking away after being shot and the other user taking a penalty for shooting another player because their "correct" target is now in an unknown location. The clan philosophy of 1v1 combat requires both pilots to participate openly, whereas common sense and intelligence tells a good player in any game to provide minimal exposure while maximizing damage.

All public information about F2P games shows that only about 10% of the users pay and only 1-2 dollars are generated per user. In order for a F2P game to remain viable, it needs a large userbase. Mechwarrior is not some unique snowflake that will somehow defy all conventions established by every other F2P game over the past 10 years.

[Amechwarrior]

zax, on 13 November 2011 - 11:05 AM, said:

The clan philosophy of 1v1 combat DOES NOT WORK when you have any players in the game who do not know or agree to such rules. The only way you would enforce such a game-type is if you prevented players from doing damage to anybody else after they hit their first opponent. Penalize the player for not finishing a 1v1 fight? How does that work when an opponent decides to run away or relocate? That's right, it doesn't.

Oddly, the Honor Rules to have clauses for one opponent staying out of LOS or just plain running away, the duel gets declared null. To put this into the context of the Honor Points concept posted above, if one of the contenders is moving out of range (arbitrarily say 1000m, MW4s engagement/radar range) and stays out of it for 10 seconds the duel is declared null. The one whos movement vector is the most "running away" would be at fault, if this is a Clan pilot, he loses Honor Points. Both contenders become undeclared combatants and the Clan pilot can pick a new target.

This would force the Clan player to chase the IS 'mech if he wanted the Honor for the kill, yet would not lose him honor unless he was the one running away. This is necessary to prevent Clan warriors from being effectively aggroed into a trap if they see it coming and also works in Clan on Clan duels. It gives Clan players incentives to close in to finish the kill, gives IS pilots a method to bait situational unaware Clanners, still works in a Clan on Clan situation and mimics the dueling rules found in the table top.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Amechwarrior, on 13 November 2011 - 06:18 AM, said:

You know, you might be right about the real person trails, but this has down sides. What if the player is a light 'mech specialist whose character is speced out for the communication role(these things being core gameplay mechanics we know the developers are putting high value on). He has no chance against brawler speced pilots in heavy and assaults in a Clan trail by combat. He could be a better scout and more useful to the clan as a whole then the mediocre brawlers he is put up against, but his electronic based skills are his eulogy in the pit.

True but based on the system I suggested (I will have to edit this post later & update it with a link to that post) it would take a long time to get to an assault mech. Things happen. I know the game will not be the same but I can only base it off of what we know is operational right now. Take MW4 for example, a light mech can brawl with a bigger chassis & run circles around it or it can use the hills as cover & jump snipe the heavier mech. These things happen. In a Dark Age novel (please do not throw objects at your monitor for my referencing this timeline, I am only using it as a reference. I apologize in advance) a Khan used a Stormcrow (this a 55 ton medium mech). Surely a Khan would have access to heavy or assault mechs but this is what she felt comfortable in. No doubt the mech is used effectively dispatching enemies of all chassis types.

We will have to roll with it & see. Of course at this point we have no idea what is going to happen; the devs may have a plan already set in motion or they actually read some of the suggestion we, the players of the BT universe, have offered. All we can do is make suggestions & wait.

hiemfire, on 13 November 2011 - 06:54 AM, said:

I will give you that this is well written and accurate. I see one problem, we are not playing as actual House units (setting aside what people are planning on naming them for the moment) but loyal mercenary groups. The Clans despise anyone who fights for the highest bidder (mercs). Now how are they going to translate that over if they add the Clans? Are they going to allow people to join a Clan (Ghost Bear, Wolf, Jade Chicken.. lol Falcon, etc.) by Trial of Position ( I think that is the one that fits, not sure)? Or are the Clans just going to be a story line feed while the House hired mercs continue to bash each other's brains in and just enjoy the more expensive tech that is trickling in from the front line's battlefield salvage?

I still see them (the Clans) as wrongfully arrogant and hypocritical (the latter part applies to the Crusader Clans mainly) lunatics who have twisted Aleksandr's dream into a farce. Probably thanks to an unstable successor (Nicholas). You don't have to agree, its just the way I see them. Blood thirsty madmen bent on domination. Honor code or no, they still are targets. Get used to the opposition's mindset Tankborne, it will define interactions to come.

Oh I cannot wait to meet you on the battlefield, surat!

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 13 November 2011 - 04:13 PM.

[Ratwedge]

Meh.

I'll just play Clan Wolf so when an enemy IS does anything approaching a violation of Zellbriggen, ill break it quick as and get on with the killing. Its the best part of playing in a Clan with a liberal (aka IS don't get Zellbriggen) interpretation of Clan RoE.

[Amechwarrior]

Ratwedge, on 13 November 2011 - 03:53 PM, said:

Meh.

I'll just play Clan Wolf so when an enemy IS does anything approaching a violation of Zellbriggen, ill break it quick as and get on with the killing. Its the best part of playing in a Clan with a liberal (aka IS don't get Zellbriggen) interpretation of Clan RoE.

While true in 3067, this was not the attitude during the invasion. Also, this was while the Wardens Wolfs were in power, you know, the ones who systematically sabotaged the entire Crusader driven invasion plan from conception of the Wolfs Dragoons to Tukayyid.

Edit: got my Ys and Ks mixed up in Tukayyid.

Edited by Amechwarrior, 13 November 2011 - 04:17 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Stormwolf, on 13 November 2011 - 07:52 AM, said:

There is a lot more to the invasion then you'd expect. It essentially boiled down to the strife between Wardens and Crusaders, the Crusader cause got the upperhand when the Outbound Light showed up.

I view myself more as a Crusading Warden, I'm not shedding any tears that my Clan lost the Trial of Refusal for Operation Revival.
The Clans should establish a new Star League, but we shouldn't treat the people on the conquered worlds like ****.

Are you referring to the Wolves?

[Ratwedge]

Amechwarrior, on 13 November 2011 - 04:16 PM, said:

While true in 3067, this was not the attitude during the invasion.

Incorrect. The only time they changed from liberal was after the Refusal War and that was because the Wardens left the Crusaders in charge and fled with all the smart people to Morges and Arc-Royal.

Quote

Also, this was while the Wardens Wolfs were in power, you know, the ones who systematically sabotaged the entire Crusader driven invasion plan from conception of the Wolfs Dragoons to Tukayyid.

Warden Wolves were notoriously terrible Zellbriggen participants unless it favored them in anyway. Its half the reason they kicked the **** out of everyone.

Edited by Ratwedge, 13 November 2011 - 04:41 PM.