100 replies to this topic

[garrett]

Ratwedge, on 13 November 2011 - 03:53 PM, said:

I'll just play Clan Wolf so when an enemy IS does anything approaching a violation of Zellbriggen, ill break it quick as and get on with the killing.

Or maybe you could accept the reality that Zellbriggen won't exist outside of private tournaments unless the developers implement it mechanically.

Don't get me wrong, Zellbriggen is a great idea on paper, but you cannot expect the average player to adhere to rules that simply don't exist within the game itself.

[Amechwarrior]

Ratwedge, on 13 November 2011 - 04:40 PM, said:

Incorrect. The only time they changed from liberal was after the Refusal War and that was because the Wardens left the Crusaders in charge and fled with all the smart people to Morges and Arc-Royal.

Warden Wolves were notoriously terrible Zellbriggen participants unless it favored them in anyway. Its half the reason they kicked the **** out of everyone.

You are right, in Total Warfare they are listed as "Opportunistic" in the pre-invasion interpretation. I do not remember them like that in the initial invasion. Were they like that in the Blood of Kerensky? It has been too long and memory is fading.

[Ratwedge]

garrett, on 13 November 2011 - 05:27 PM, said:

Or maybe you could accept the reality that Zellbriggen won't exist outside of private tournaments unless the developers implement it mechanically.

Don't get me wrong, Zellbriggen is a great idea on paper, but you cannot expect the average player to adhere to rules that simply don't exist within the game itself.

lolwut

Amechwarrior, on 13 November 2011 - 05:30 PM, said:

You are right, in Total Warfare they are listed as "Opportunistic" in the pre-invasion interpretation. I do not remember them like that in the initial invasion. Were they like that in the Blood of Kerensky? It has been too long and memory is fading.

Wolves understood that the Inner Sphere wasn't going to play by their rules. They would use Zellbriggen but soon as any part of it was violated, they tended to drop it and get the job done, throw in some arty and then bomb them with aerospace forces. Individual warriors might try to adhere as much to the spirit of it as possible but this is a Clan who uses Artillery, advance logistics and plan around fighting drawn battles which is polar oppsites of how Clans should fight.

[Apophis X]

Zellbriggen requires players to follow roleplaying aspects of BT and many players simply do not. In fact, it only takes a few to throw it off for everyone which always happens and the game finds a balance near something like a free for all with best tech possible.

If you want Zellbriggen then there needs to be a league of clans (like league of nations) that all agree to a static set of rules and fight only under those rules. If you get enough clans to agree and patrol themselves you have half the equation. Then you need to host games or battles where all players are aware that Zell is in effect. All who participate, clan or not, must either respect it or face the wrath of clan justice. Non clanners would be put down, dezgra clanners would be annihilated.

I think its worth doing if clan tech is brought into game, if clanners can form a body of players who all agree to Zell, and if they can hold matches where all players know its a Zell match and play along.

[Amechwarrior]

Ratwedge, on 13 November 2011 - 08:20 PM, said:

Wolves understood that the Inner Sphere wasn't going to play by their rules. They would use Zellbriggen but soon as any part of it was violated, they tended to drop it and get the job done, throw in some arty and then bomb them with aerospace forces. Individual warriors might try to adhere as much to the spirit of it as possible but this is a Clan who uses Artillery, advance logistics and plan around fighting drawn battles which is polar oppsites of how Clans should fight.

Thanks for the refresh. Do you think this change in tactics should be transferred into MWO or should they be forced to follow the same limits of the Honor Point system we have outlined above?

At first glance, I would say we might have to give the canon lax behavior the boot and make them play like the other Clans for uniformity and faction balance. They are already the fan favorite Clan and not having to play by the rules all the time when other Clans must would ensure all the powergamers flock to the Wolves just so they can be cheap. But then, we do not know how different the IS factions may be. For all we know, Davion RCT get AI vehicle support while the Steiners get dirt cheap assaults

[Steadfast]

Just asking, you do know that we do not even know if clans will be implemented as a playable faction, yes? Don't tell me, "But they must do it!" - no, they do not have to. Just saying.
So before you plan on special rules for certain clans - which sure would be cool for the players, how about we pour that energy into the known game that is availbal ye... wait!
Seriously, do not build to much hopes up, you will only be frustrated. Trust me on that one, the human mind works frustratingly like that, at first you just toss around a few ideas, than you get feedback, positive for instance and you think, see, others think alike, this will be great! - and than the game releases and all it can do is fail you, as it most probably won't pick your ideas - out of a felt thousand that is quite probable.
So, if you do not get frustrated if the devs do not choose your idea or anything like it, go ahead, go on and toss around those ideas!
But if you tend to be that kind of grumpy old/ angry young men - for your sake, throttle down

Take care all and fight on.
~B~
Daniel

Edited by Steadfast, 14 November 2011 - 01:43 AM.

[garrett]

The FAQ confirms that players will be able to form mercenary companies but says nothing about how Houses or Clans will work.

[Amechwarrior]

Steadfast, on 13 November 2011 - 09:37 PM, said:

So, if you do not get frustrated if the devs do not choose your idea or anything like it, go ahead, go on and toss around those ideas!
But if you tend to be that kind of grumpy old/ angry young men - for your sake, throttle down

You are right. Just we need something to talk about and we know nothing about the game. Last week it was targeting and cones of fire, this week it is the Clans. I bet next weeks hot topic of blind speculation will be how missiles are handled.

[jojobear]

If this thread is any indication, I'm going to have endless fun trolling all the butthurt clanners in this game.

[Apophis X]

@Steadfast So, regardless of what you think your trying to say, you are implying that players shouldnt even be talking about these ideas, discussing what-ifs, or enjoying some clanner discussion because, dogonnit, its just raising hopes and the human brain is apt to be frustrated. lol.. really?

Will there be a clan appearance in this game? It would be a silly head-in-the-sand point of view to say there wouldn't be. They already posted news about the Outbound Light. The time period of this game takes place is exactly the cusp of clan appearance. But, Im not getting my hopes up or coming down with a case of brain frustration because that would be bad..lol

[Steadfast]

Apophis_X, on 14 November 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:

@Steadfast So, regardless of what you think your trying to say, you are implying that players shouldnt even be talking about these ideas, discussing what-ifs, or enjoying some clanner discussion because, dogonnit, its just raising hopes and the human brain is apt to be frustrated. lol.. really?

Will there be a clan appearance in this game? It would be a silly head-in-the-sand point of view to say there wouldn't be. They already posted news about the Outbound Light. The time period of this game takes place is exactly the cusp of clan appearance. But, Im not getting my hopes up or coming down with a case of brain frustration because that would be bad..lol

No. Iam saying that you should not get your hopes to high. Thats all. Anything else would be stupid.
~lb~
Daniel

[Hangfire]

zax, on 13 November 2011 - 11:05 AM, said:

The clan philosophy of 1v1 combat DOES NOT WORK when you have any players in the game who do not know or agree to such rules. The only way you would enforce such a game-type is if you prevented players from doing damage to anybody else after they hit their first opponent. Penalize the player for not finishing a 1v1 fight? How does that work when an opponent decides to run away or relocate? That's right, it doesn't.

There IS a way to enforce one on one combat in multiplayer, if you've ever played Jedi academy (JK2) in multiplayer you can challenge another player to a duel, when the player accepts the two combatants are unable to cause damage to anyone but each other, and are unable to be damaged by anyone trying to break up the duel,, This of course is rank rotten for realism but does help duellers to duel in peace.

I'm not saying it should be done, just pointing out that it can be done.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

The game is to be set shortly before the Clans hit the nearby periphery worlds.
So its possible we'll see Phelan Kell disappearing with his unit.

So the time-frame is, imo, quite well picked from a developer's point of view, since it allows for plenty of advancement without having a huge leap in years.

As for the Outbound Light.
The ship (Merchant-class JumpShip) left with two DropShips (the Knox, a Union-class, and the Golden Hind, a Buccaneer-class) from Bone-Norman in June 3046 for a standard 3-year exploration survey with a crew of 46 and a 7-person survey team. On September the 27th 3048, the ship jumped into the Huntress system, the capital of Clan Smoke Jaguar. Khan Leo Showers used this fact to break a deadlock in the Great Debate (which had been raging since 2980), causing the majority of clans to vote in favour of the invasion (only Clan Wolf voted against). Leo Showers took advantage of the moment, and got elected ilKhan (Khan of Khans, or supreme leader of the clans). Final fate of the vessels and their crew is unknown.

[HIemfire]

Outbound Light jumped into Smoke Jag space? Safe to say they are probably toast. The Jags are not Star Adder or Cloud Cobra as evinced by their later dealings with the Draconis Combine.

[Tannhauser Gate]

It CAN be done and it HAS been done. It requires mature players who form a circle of clans and they simply follow Zell no matter what. It happened in MW2, MW3, and MW4. Is there a way for ALL players to follow it? No. Should ALL players follow it? No. Let the clanners who want to carry that torch enforce Zellbriggen in their battles. It just adds to the depth of the game. all good

[Jaroth Corbett]

hiemfire, on 14 November 2011 - 01:57 PM, said:

Outbound Light jumped into Smoke Jag space? Safe to say they are probably toast. The Jags are not Star Adder or Cloud Cobra as evinced by their later dealings with the Draconis Combine.

Neg they did not get toasted. Leo Showers used the information the crew gave him to push for & finally receive the green light for the invasion. The Smoke Jaguars wiped the memories of the crew then sent them back on their way.

[HIemfire]

Jaroth Winson, on 14 November 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

Neg they did not get toasted. Leo Showers used the information the crew gave him to push for & finally receive the green light for the invasion. The Smoke Jaguars wiped the memories of the crew then sent them back on their way.

I am going to need your source, apparently who ever set up the Sarna page for the Outbound Light decided to be sloppy and didn't actually put in references. If that is your source, then there may be a slight issue due to the fact it cites the possibility of them not having been "sent on their way" but possibly taken as bondsmen (not as bad a case as I would expect from Smoke Jaguar, but not the best thing for non-warriors to have happen).

[Jaroth Corbett]

Yeah that is the thing with Sarna; it is like Wikipedia where anybody can type anything without a proper source.

Jade Falcon Sourcebook Pg.5

[Stormwolf]

hiemfire, on 14 November 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:

I am going to need your source, apparently who ever set up the Sarna page for the Outbound Light decided to be sloppy and didn't actually put in references. If that is your source, then there may be a slight issue due to the fact it cites the possibility of them not having been "sent on their way" but possibly taken as bondsmen (not as bad a case as I would expect from Smoke Jaguar, but not the best thing for non-warriors to have happen).

Like Jaroth said, that page is wrong. There is also mention of this in the Clan Wolf sourcebook, I don't have access to my books right now, so I can't give a pagenumber.

IIRC, there is also mention somewhere that Comstar tried to reconstruct the memories of the Outbound Light crew to figure out the location of the Clan homeworlds (this didn't work though).

[Alexander Grave]

No offense, but jeez Steadfast, you're such a downer. It's just discussion, no need to get hyped up about harmless speculation and group thinking.


IMO, an honor system would balance most of the issue. A separate server/mode would facilitate those who /want/ Zellbrigen, but I can see it getting ignored by the disgustingly high number of small children who join and foul up the server with cries of "n00bs!" and "F*****'s!" all over the place, and end up teamkilling at the first sign of trouble with team mates saying anything about rules or honour.

While I can really agree with the Clanner view, I'm between Wolf and Merc, really, but personally, I'm from that finer time when even on MMO's, I'd try to go one-on-one. Hell, in Space Marine, I still go one-on-one until bullets come my way. But then people say I'm just Griefing them (which makes me wonder if they know what Griefing is).

In short, I'm on the fence. It could go either way with Zell, if we /can/ play Clanners. I really hope we can. I want me my Mad Cat~

~Grave