87 replies to this topic

[Bors Mistral]

I have to say I have a thing for the Locust. It goes fast. Real fast!

There are, however, two things about it that drive me nuts:
- The Locust is a walking headshot... and that's fine, especially once actual role-warfare finally gets here.
- The Locust's legs are more brittle than chopsticks made of eggshells.

Now, for a mech who's only tool of survival is speed, the second point is a huge problem. At the moment, piloting a Locust, more often than not your legs will be yellow before you've crossed half the map. There was a similar problem with the Cicada, but that was pretty much sorted out. The Locust deserves the same treatment and more, considering the Cicada has 2.5 times the leg health.

Second on the same subject, the Locust seems to be the only mech that has less HP and armour on legs than on side torsos... Why, PGI, what gameplay sense does that make?

Third, installing Ferro-Fibrous on the Locust, though it mostly comes stock with it, give is a massive 0,41t to work it - pretty much useless, except to try to spread another 20 points on your measly papier mâché armour. That, again, underlines a problem with FF more than anything.

Last, there's no point about talking about the Locust in terms of heat. Fill it up with SHS and you still can't cool a single ML on Terra Therma. You can't count on DHS to cool well the only semi-combat capable variant, the 3M, either, as, unlike other lights, you only get 7 of them and the rest are the joke 1,4s.

That pretty much concludes my semi-rant about the Locust. In my opinion, PGI needs to perk-up that fun-to-drive mech, and make it fun-to-pilot. What do you think?

[BillyM]

I would like the locust to have a final "safeguard" wherein a single shot cannot reduce armor and internal to zero. So long as armor exists, only allow HP of internal components to be reduced to 1HP, but stop there for 0.25sec before allowing the mech to be killed.

...let the little buggers shrug off any one-shot, but leave them wide open with only 1hp on that component.

(I 2ppc'd a fresh locust straight through the rear torso at ~450m, and felt bad about it...) Instead of the pilot saying "GAAHH, 1shot killed!", I would have preferred him go "oh crud, I'm almost dead, better fall back and be super-careful".)

*I do not own a locust
*I do run jenners, HBK's, and cataphracts, and abuse locusts at all times

--billyM

Edited by BillyM, 01 November 2013 - 07:44 AM.

[xRatas]

Fix the heat sink requirement on locust. So the initial 10 heatsinks that can not fit inside engine use up extra critical space but not extra tonnage.

Edited by xRatas, 01 November 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Its fine the way it is.
Though The only thing that kept me from buying the phoenix package was that no locust came with jump jets. But thats a good thing. My fleas with have them.

[FupDup]

xRatas, on 01 November 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Fix the heat sink requirement on locust. So the initial 10 heatsinks that can not fit inside engine use up extra critical space but not extra tonnage.

I think it should be the other way around. The 10 base sinks should all be built into the engine so that you aren't stupidly taxed of 9 critical slots just because you had the audacity to pick the weakest mech in the game. This would open up a few more loadout options on each variant that aren't presently possible due to lacking slots, and let more loadouts carry FF to save more precious tonnage.

Edited by FupDup, 01 November 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[AC]

Where is the option to simply reduce the size. The thing is nearly the same size as a Jenner, which is nearly twice as heavy.

[Khobai]

1) Locust cockpit needs to be redone. This is the biggest problem with the Locust IMO because the damn cockpit obstructs half your view. As if piloting a locust wasnt vexing enough already, youre also forced to choose between playing with blinders or playing with binoculars.

2) Internal structure needs to be increased so Locusts no longer get one-shotted as easily. The Locust and Commando are the only two mechs in the game that get one-shotted regularly. Because these mechs still get one-shotted, they got ZERO benefit from double armor, while every other mech got a substantial survivability increase out of it. That's a major reason why these mechs are so bad.

3) 10 heatsink minimum requirement needs to be removed. Its an antiquated rule that accomplishes nothing other than hurting the Commando and Locust. It's quite frankly stupid that a Locust with 4 machine guns that generate 0 heat is forced to spend 3 tons on heatsinks.

4) Jenner needs to be balanced better with the other lights because right now its outright better than other lights in almost every category besides ECM. Its the Highlander of light mechs. Nerf the Highlander too while youre at it.

I can accept that the Locust will always be terrible. But it should not be so frustratingly terrible that nobody even wants to play it. It needs to at least get to the point where you can play a Locust and still be an asset to your team instead of just being a free kill.

Edited by Khobai, 01 November 2013 - 09:05 AM.

[Durant Carlyle]

Bors Mistral, on 01 November 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Second on the same subject, the Locust seems to be the only mech that has less HP and armour on legs than on side torsos... Why, PGI, what gameplay sense does that make?

It's called being a 20-ton 'Mech. All of them will be like that. It goes back to the internal structure and armor values in tabletop BattleTech.

BillyM, on 01 November 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

I would like the locust to have a final "safeguard" wherein a single shot cannot reduce armor and internal to zero. So long as armor exists, only allow HP of internal components to be reduced to 1HP, but stop there for 0.25sec before allowing the mech to be killed.

...let the little buggers shrug off any one-shot, but leave them wide open with only 1hp on that component.

How does that make any kind of sense? The extra damage gets magically absorbed? Negatory on this idea.

Khobai, on 01 November 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

1) Locust cockpit needs to be redone. This is the biggest problem with the Locust IMO because the damn cockpit obstructs half your view. As if piloting a locust wasnt vexing enough already, youre also forced to choose between playing with blinders or playing with binoculars.

This I agree with. Less obstruction, especially on the -1V. Also, make sure the cockpit frame doesn't glow in Heat vision mode. It's annoying.

Khobai, on 01 November 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

2) Internal structure needs to be increased so Locusts no longer get one-shotted as easily. The Locust and Commando are the only two mechs in the game that get one-shotted regularly. Because these mechs still get one-shotted, they got ZERO benefit from double armor, while every other mech got a substantial survivability increase out of it. That's a major reason why these mechs are so bad.

Negative. Play styles need adjusting, not the 'Mech stats.

Khobai, on 01 November 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

3) 10 heatsink minimum requirement needs to be removed. Its an antiquated rule that accomplishes nothing other than hurting the Commando and Locust. It's quite frankly stupid that a Locust with 4 machine guns that generate 0 heat is forced to spend 3 tons on heatsinks.

Remember, people ... you aren't actually spending three tons on heat sinks. The way the devs calculate engine tonnages makes it SEEM that way. But when calculated out, you still get 10 tonnage-free heat sinks with the engine, just like in tabletop BattleTech.

In tabletop BattleTech, you don't get to have a 190 engine with seven heat sinks and then have three tons to spend as you please. You get 10 heat sinks, three of which need to be put in critical slots. This game does work the same way, just in a convoluted manner.

Khobai, on 01 November 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

4) Jenner needs to be balanced better with the other lights because right now its outright better than other lights in almost every category besides ECM.

Jenner needs no adjustments. It's slow, and has no ECM. It's heavier and can carry more armor and weaponry than other lights. We can min-max it better than other lights right now, but that doesn't mean it needs adjustment.

Khobai, on 01 November 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

I can accept that the Locust will always be terrible. But it should not be so frustratingly terrible that nobody even wants to play it. It needs to at least get to the point where you can play a Locust and still be an asset to your team instead of just being a free kill.

It's not terrible. It's viable, but requires play style adjustments, as well as more skill and luck than other lights. When I first tried them, I thought they were terrible. I gave up on them for a few days. But I went back, and adjusted my thinking and play style. Now my K/D ratios are 1.25, 0.68, and 0.91 for the -1V, -3M, and -3S respectively ... and they have been getting better slowly but surely.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 01 November 2013 - 09:51 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Negative. Play styles need adjusting, not the 'Mech stats.

You are wrong. The locust doesnt have the weapon options to allow players to adapt any other playstyles with it.

Quote

Remember, people ... you aren't actually spending three tons on heat sinks. The way the devs calculate engine tonnages makes it SEEM that way. But when calculated out, you still get 10 tonnage-free heat sinks with the engine, just like in tabletop BattleTech.

Wrong again. You're forced to spend 3 tons on heatsinks you shouldnt have to take. Tabletop is also flawed in forcing 20 ton mechs take 10 heatsinks minimum. It cuts into their available tonnage for no good reason.

Quote

Jenner needs no adjustments. It's slow, and has no ECM. It's heavier and can carry more armor and weaponry than other lights. We can min-max it better than other lights right now, but that doesn't mean it needs adjustment.

Umm Jenners are anything but slow. They go 151, they're in the best category for hill climbing, and unlike the Locust they have jumpjets. That puts them at least on par with the Locust for agility.

Quote

It's not terrible. It's viable,

Yes it is terrible. Period.

Edited by Khobai, 01 November 2013 - 10:45 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

BillyM, on 01 November 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

I would like the locust to have a final "safeguard" wherein a single shot cannot reduce armor and internal to zero. So long as armor exists, only allow HP of internal components to be reduced to 1HP, but stop there for 0.25sec before allowing the mech to be killed.

...let the little buggers shrug off any one-shot, but leave them wide open with only 1hp on that component.

(I 2ppc'd a fresh locust straight through the rear torso at ~450m, and felt bad about it...) Instead of the pilot saying "GAAHH, 1shot killed!", I would have preferred him go "oh crud, I'm almost dead, better fall back and be super-careful".)

*I do not own a locust
*I do run jenners, HBK's, and cataphracts, and abuse locusts at all times

--billyM

No! You take the lightest weakest least armored Mech in the game and you want to make it tough? Pulling arms and legs off a Locust has been/should be easy, if you hit it.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 01 November 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[Durant Carlyle]

Khobai, on 01 November 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

You are wrong. The locust doesnt have the weapon options to allow players to adapt any other playstyles with it.

No, YOU are wrong. You certainly CAN adapt to other play styles. What I mean specifically is being cautious about your piloting. Thinking before you rush out and get yourself killed. Hanging around behind your bigger buddies even more than you do in other lights, and waiting until enemies are FULLY engaged before firing on them from close range or hanging back and taking sniper potshots with ERLL. Piloting a Locust isn't rocket science. You just can't do what you do in other lights, because the Locust isn't tough enough to survive the hits -- which is exactly the way it SHOULD be.

Khobai, on 01 November 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Wrong again. You're forced to spend 3 tons on heatsinks you shouldnt have to take. Tabletop is also flawed in forcing 20 ton mechs take 10 heatsinks minimum. It cuts into their available tonnage for no good reason.

No, YOU are wrong. Again. Those 10 heatsinks come FREE with the engine in tabletop BattleTech, and they do in MW:O as well. You don't get the choice to not take them in BattleTech -- and even if you didn't take them, you don't save any tonnage by doing so because they are included in the engine tonnage. It's only because the extra heat sinks are a separate tonnage in MW:O weight calculations that this is even a concern. The total weight adds up to still getting 10 FREE heatsinks in MW:O. It has all been calculated to death by everyone and their mother since closed beta. You should know this.

Khobai, on 01 November 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Umm Jenners are anything but slow. They go 151, they're in the best category for hill climbing, and unlike the Locust they have jumpjets. That puts them at least on par with the Locust for agility.

Third time's the -- oh wait, you're wrong again. They are slow compared to the new top speeds on non-ECM lights, which can now run away from all Jenners. I know, as I run top-speed Jenners every single day I play MW:O, and they cannot keep up. With your reasoning, jump-capable heavier members of every class should be nerfed because they can jump and carry more armor and weaponry than the lighter members of their classes. That's just not the case. The Jenner is where it should be, as are the other 'Mechs.

Khobai, on 01 November 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Yes it is terrible. Period.

Wow, you ended up being wrong on all points. That's a new record. The Locust is challenging, takes some getting used to, and requires play style changes ... but is decidedly not terrible.

If you think about it, the Locust is how lights are SUPPOSED to be. They are vulnerable to pretty much any weapon, including machine guns. They can be used offensively, but the MechWarrior must be very careful doing so. They are best used against other lights, or when bigger adversaries are concentrating on your teammates. They are definitely not "solo any 'Mech in the game" mode like other lights -- and that's a good thing.

[dario03]

I would add a couple of module slots. make it have more than another mech like 5 or 6 slots. Wouldn't make it great by any means but could help and actually be something that it has over the other mechs. Let more armor be added to the legs and maybe adjust the hitboxes of the legs. Would probably make every light able to fall more before taking leg damage.

Durant Carlyle, on 02 November 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

No, YOU are wrong. You certainly CAN adapt to other play styles. What I mean specifically is being cautious about your piloting. Thinking before you rush out and get yourself killed. Hanging around behind your bigger buddies even more than you do in other lights, and waiting until enemies are FULLY engaged before firing on them from close range or hanging back and taking sniper potshots with ERLL. Piloting a Locust isn't rocket science. You just can't do what you do in other lights, because the Locust isn't tough enough to survive the hits -- which is exactly the way it SHOULD be.


No, YOU are wrong. Again. Those 10 heatsinks come FREE with the engine in tabletop BattleTech, and they do in MW:O as well. You don't get the choice to not take them in BattleTech -- and even if you didn't take them, you don't save any tonnage by doing so because they are included in the engine tonnage. It's only because the extra heat sinks are a separate tonnage in MW:O weight calculations that this is even a concern. The total weight adds up to still getting 10 FREE heatsinks in MW:O. It has all been calculated to death by everyone and their mother since closed beta. You should know this.


Third time's the -- oh wait, you're wrong again. They are slow compared to the new top speeds on non-ECM lights, which can now run away from all Jenners. I know, as I run top-speed Jenners every single day I play MW:O, and they cannot keep up. With your reasoning, jump-capable heavier members of every class should be nerfed because they can jump and carry more armor and weaponry than the lighter members of their classes. That's just not the case. The Jenner is where it should be, as are the other 'Mechs.


Wow, you ended up being wrong on all points. That's a new record. The Locust is challenging, takes some getting used to, and requires play style changes ... but is decidedly not terrible.

If you think about it, the Locust is how lights are SUPPOSED to be. They are vulnerable to pretty much any weapon, including machine guns. They can be used offensively, but the MechWarrior must be very careful doing so. They are best used against other lights, or when bigger adversaries are concentrating on your teammates. They are definitely not "solo any 'Mech in the game" mode like other lights -- and that's a good thing.

Tonnage doesn't have to be used for the 10 engine heatsinks but you do have to use crit slots. Not a huge deal on the locust but I did have a build that I couldn't do because of it. And a couple builds on other mechs. But I'm curious, what is your definition of terrible? Because basically anything a locust can do another light can do better so how is it not terrible? All of this play style changes you mention basically equal out to being more cautious, hiding, and capping which can be done in the other lights while having more of everything.

Edited by dario03, 02 November 2013 - 02:37 AM.

[Durant Carlyle]

Locust and Commando are easy to kill. Spider will be fairly easy to kill (a bit harder because of jump jets) when its hit boxes get fixed.

The Jenner and Raven are really the only lights that should be a danger to larger 'Mechs, as they have the tonnage to have decent speed, decent firepower, and decent armor all in one package. Most 35-tonners will be like this.

There are far more heavy and assault pilots than there are light pilots. Right now, there really isn't any advantage to using a Locust versus the other lights. But when CW is fully online, they will have weight limits. They may even have special contracts/missions with extremely low weight limits. Locust will bring the advantage of allowing heavier heavies and assaults on the field, and that will be very valuable indeed.

[Red squirrel]

My single biggest issue with the Locust is the aweful cockpit.
I cant see any thing in this thing.

[MonkeyCheese]

I think its fine outside of the 10heatsink topic, u gotta hide and strike at the perfect times when mechs are weak and distracted, but an extra module would be nice.

I was terrible as I was driving it as i was stuck in raven/Jenner mode but the more I drive them and adjust to their unique style the better I am getting, and I'm finally getting closer to speed tweaking them the traditional non gxp way.

As for deaths, it is more from st/ct than it is legs for me.

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 03 November 2013 - 03:29 AM.

[Malleus011]

It desperately needs a safe fall distance increase.

I'm for extra module slots - preferably quite a few of them. A locust with 4-5 module slots would be an interesting ride, and the lack of weapons would matter less.

The cockpit could use some love.

Finally, it needs an ECM option. Of all the mechs in MWO, only the Raven 3L had ECM in canon. The Commando, Spider, Atlas and Cicada were all bestowed the boon of ECM by the Devs, there's no reason the Locust can't have it too.

(Yes, ECM is too good and SHS are utter trash ... not that we haven't asked for them to be fixed over and over again. But everything is 'working as intended' ...)

[Dayuhan]

Quote

It is the rare MechWarrior who enjoys piloting a Locust for any length of time. It is currently the smallest of all 'Mechs used and thus is outclassed by just about every other 'Mech on the field. Lacking the jump jets and hands of other smaller 'Mechs, the Locust is limited in close firefights or in 'Mech-to-'Mech combat.

As a direct hit by almost any weapon on the battlefield can destroy or quickly cripple a Locust, it is usually deployed in groups of three, which then have the ability to encircle opposing 'Mechs. Many large 'Mechs that wander off in battle have fallen to such an attack.

- Battletech: Technical Readout 3025

The Locust as it currently is configured fits with the historical documentation on the survivability in such a 'mech. Its only defense is its speed, but there are many light 'mechs that can match even this. Even when fully armoured, which most Locust's cannot do if they want to carry any useful weaponry, most heavy weapons will go internal on a Locust with a direct hit.

Only in the hands of an exceptional pilot can a Locust go one-on-one with other 'mechs, this is the reason Locusts pilots should learn from the pages of history and run in packs. Pack hunting increases the suvivability of each 'mech and allow them to take down 'mechs that would destroy them in a one-on-one fight. Use a scavenger mentality, if the 'mech you are fighting is able to divert its sole attention to you then you need to find a more distracted target. Use your one asset, speed, to find the weaklings, the isolated, the damaged, and then use encircle, hit-and-run, and strafing tactics to take it down.

That being said, I agree that the 'mech should follow the same internal structure and armor rules as all the others and not be intentionally made weaker than it already is. I think an extra module slot on at least one of the variants would make it a useful Scout-lance command 'mech.

[Toothless]

I love my Locusts, they made MWO fun for me again. My only complaint is the engine/heatsink silliness.

[ApolloKaras]

Durant is correct in respect to the engine tonnage vs battletech. The only thing MWO did is made the engines lighter to accommodate the fact that you have to add more heat sinks to meet the 10 requirement.

I'm not for removing that requirement at all. Now you can introduce troll builds - Ilya with 3 Gauss Rifles xl170 and near max armor w/ more ammo :| lol

[Deathlike]

#1 problem with the Locust is that it's slow... so no engine upgrades and/or increased speed through MASC = Worse than the Commando and Spider = Locust is bottom of the food chain.

You can't fix a system that has the lowest tier of a mech ever to be capable at the same speed of the mechs above it.

You could say the same thing for the Commando and Spider vs the Jenner and Raven when they all have similar top speeds.

Anyone who doesn't get this fundamental issue is complaining about generally the wrong issues (weapon loadouts, and to a lesser extent, the 10 HS rule).