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Mech Scaling


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#1 Swervedriver

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:45 AM

There have been a few threads about the sizes of different classes of mechs, but they all seem to rotate around the idea of making mechs smaller.

My idea for a solution: Heavy & Assault mechs should be bigger!

When I launch matches and start roaming around places like Crimson Straights & River City and see cars and excavators (bulldozers if you prefer) and size them up to my mech I realize that mechs, especially the 60-100 tonners, need to be much larger.

Even in a dystopian future such as the world of BattleTech, you would certainly have lighter materials for vehicle construction: special lightweight alloys for internal structure, composite armor plating, etc.
The weapons systems also do not appear to be scaling to what they actually weigh. LRMs are an excellent example.

I believe the mismatch in scaling is what's making a Centurion & Shadowhawk virtually the same height and volume as most of the Heavy & Assault class mechs.

The solution isn't to make things smaller, especially in regard to the objects around the maps, but to make the mechs larger.

When you compare the Locust to an Atlas, you don't get the impression that the Atlas has 5 times the volume. The Atlas appears to be roughly 3 times the volume when stood next to each other.. Even comparing 50 ton mechs to a 100 ton Atlas leaves something to be desired from a volume standpoint. You need room for 2 cockpits, twice the internals, twice the armor, etc.

If you make the lighter and medium mechs smaller compared to the heavy and assaults, the various structures and vehicles on the ground in maps would seem outrageously large in comparison.

The most obvious offender to he whole scaling system is the Jagermech. Stood next to a Centurion, the Jagermech looks virtually the same weight. The Thunderbolt, at 5 tons lighter, looks almost 15 tons heavier compared to the Jager. Compared to an Atlas, the Jager at 70 tons looks nearly half the weight of the 100 tonner.

The second most obvious offender of the scaling system is the Spider. From a volume perspective, the Spider appears to be virtually the same weight as the Commando, which is 10 tons ligher.

In my opinion the entire scaling system needs a programming and graphic pass. Each class of mechs (Light, Med, Heavy, Assault) should be scaled within their classes. And then, each class should be scaled within the entire system.

20-30 ton Light mechs should be roughly half the size of the 50-55 tonners. Medium mechs should be roughly half the size of the 90-100 tonners. Thus, boosting the size of the Heavy & Assault class mechs would achieve this and properly scale the entire canon of mechs to what the various structures and vehicles in the maps show.

Edited by Swervedriver, 01 November 2013 - 09:47 AM.


#2 FupDup

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:58 AM

Most heavies, assaults, and lights have their size pretty close to just right. Most of the scaling issues are exhibited by mediums, all of which are a tad too large compared to lights (even the smaller mediums). The heavies that need shrinking include the Catapult, Dragon, and Quickdraw. The only assault that could use a rescaling is the Stalker, which should probably be slightly larger than it is now. The Spider might need a slight size increase (we should fix HSR and stuff and check the results before proceeding).

#3 Funkadelic Mayhem

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:16 PM

Frankly iv never given it a thought tell I saw this thread.
That being said. I am happy with the look of the game and the mechs. The LAST thing I want the devs to have to do is go back and re size the mechs. The good news is THEY WILL NEVER RE SIZE THE MECHS. So please stop wasting you and our time posting this in GAMEPLAY BALANCE!
*reported because this does not belong here* look 4 this in suggestions....

#4 FupDup

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:20 PM

View PostFunkadelic Mayhem, on 01 November 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

The LAST thing I want the devs to have to do is go back and re size the mechs.

Many people respectfully disagree.


View PostFunkadelic Mayhem, on 01 November 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

The good news is THEY WILL NEVER RE SIZE THE MECHS.

Actually that's awful news.


View PostFunkadelic Mayhem, on 01 November 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

So please stop wasting you and our time posting this in GAMEPLAY BALANCE!
*reported because this does not belong here* look 4 this in suggestions....

Mech size has a direct impact on balance. If you make a mech too big for its armor and weapon capacity, then it has lowered effectiveness than it *should* have. Conversely, making a mech too small for the payload they can pack can have the opposite effect (however, this is less of an issue because very few if any mechs are sized too small).

#5 Funkadelic Mayhem

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:23 PM

View PostFupDup, on 01 November 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

Many people respectfully disagree.

wait..... you disagree that.....

View PostFunkadelic Mayhem, on 01 November 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

The LAST thing I want the devs to have to do is go back and re size the mechs.

how can you disagree on "the last thing I want? You may want the opposite or something different but you cant disagree that its what I want. Unless you can read minds and its not what I want. Which it is. so.... humph?

#6 Otto Cannon

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:26 PM

View PostFunkadelic Mayhem, on 01 November 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Frankly iv never given it a thought tell I saw this thread.
That being said. I am happy with the look of the game and the mechs. The LAST thing I want the devs to have to do is go back and re size the mechs. The good news is THEY WILL NEVER RE SIZE THE MECHS. So please stop wasting you and our time posting this in GAMEPLAY BALANCE!
*reported because this does not belong here* look 4 this in suggestions....


Not sure if lame troll attempt or just a bit 'special'.

#7 FupDup

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:27 PM

View PostFunkadelic Mayhem, on 01 November 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

wait..... you disagree that.....

how can you disagree on "the last thing I want? You may want the opposite or something different but you cant disagree that its what I want. Unless you can read minds and its not what I want. Which it is. so.... humph?

When somebody says "the last thing I want is X," it is usually implied that the person saying it doesn't want X to happen at all.

The meaning of my post, therefore, was that many people do want mech rescaling done in a timely fashion.

Edited by FupDup, 01 November 2013 - 12:30 PM.


#8 AC

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:45 PM

I think there are a number of mechs that need to be looked at

1) The whole medium class (minus Cicadas)
2) Stalker compared to Catapult (WTF is going on here??)
3) Spider is way too small for its mass. It is commando sized when it should be more Jenner sized.
4) Locust is probably a little large. It doesn't have armor, so size is its only advantage and PGI seemed to take that away.

#9 Funkadelic Mayhem

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:49 PM

View PostFupDup, on 01 November 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

Many people respectfully disagree.



Actually that's awful news.



Mech size has a direct impact on balance. If you make a mech too big for its armor and weapon capacity, then it has lowered effectiveness than it *should* have. Conversely, making a mech too small for the payload they can pack can have the opposite effect (however, this is less of an issue because very few if any mechs are sized too small).

forgive me. I dont understand how cosmetics effects balance.

#10 FupDup

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:52 PM

View PostFunkadelic Mayhem, on 01 November 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

forgive me. I dont understand how cosmetics effects balance.

Mech size is not just cosmetic. Aiming at enemy robots is a core component to gameplay, and larger targets are by definition easier to aim at. If something it easier to aim at, it receives more damage than it would if it were reduced in size. If it receives more damage, it dies faster. If it dies faster, it is less useful to its team. If it is less useful to its team...I think you get the idea.

Edited by FupDup, 01 November 2013 - 01:53 PM.


#11 Accursed Richards

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:55 PM

View PostFunkadelic Mayhem, on 01 November 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

forgive me. I dont understand how cosmetics effects balance.


Because it isn't cosmetic. If you've got a medium that can take half the punishment of an assault but is inexplicably the same height, which one will die faster?

Of course, none of the designers quite seem to grasp the effect that ginormous CT's have on survivability either, so you're in good company in not getting this.

#12 Funkadelic Mayhem

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:07 PM

so whats the solution. Increase Assaults or lower mediums? the lights cant get much smaller. I can just imagine the spider QQ if it was made smaller.

#13 FupDup

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:09 PM

View PostFunkadelic Mayhem, on 01 November 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

so whats the solution. Increase Assaults or lower mediums? the lights cant get much smaller. I can just imagine the spider QQ if it was made smaller.

Lower the mediums. Lights don't need to get smaller, except *maybe* the Locust (Spider might even be able to use a tiny size increase).

#14 Deathlike

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:16 PM

If the Urbie was introduced and was the size of an Atlas, would you be OK with that?

That's the discussion in a nutshell.

#15 wolf74

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:27 PM

Build a VR water Tank. When a Mech is placed in it we will have the mech's volume. Use a Mechs Weight/Volume Displacement to resize all mechs to the same Weight to Volume ratio. This way to accout for the shape of the mechs (Aka the stalkers Long Nose, Or how Wide the Awesome is.)

MW / VD = MWVD ratio.

#16 M4NTiC0R3X

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:31 PM

I'm not sure what it would take but I am sure that I dislike a lot of this games proportions. It makes one wonder if these proportions are intentional, and yes, balance is a very big issue.

#17 Pale Jackal

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:32 PM

As someone else observed, PGI has said re-scaling is too much work.

As clunky as it is, I think we're going to require 'mech specific buffs or specialities.

Maybe if they ever re-work the pilot trees, they will give you the option of spending XP to give your Awesome Prime +10% to PPC damage... or maybe they'll just give the variant a bonus to PPC damage... or maybe the ability to fire 3 PPCs without triggering ghost heat. Similarly, you could give Hunchbacks a damage reduction bonus for their hunch, or maybe in the case of the 9P, it gets a bonus to laser damage, or can boat 9 medium lasers without ghost heat.

Clunky, yes, but no more clunky than ghost heat. I'd rather have them do something like this than relegate certain 'mechs to inferior status due to hit boxes. I've already stopped piloting my X-5 because it's too damn fat.

#18 AC

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 03:12 PM

View PostFupDup, on 01 November 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

Lower the mediums. Lights don't need to get smaller, except *maybe* the Locust (Spider might even be able to use a tiny size increase).



The spider could indeed use a size increase. It is 25 tons size and it needs to be 30 tons size. The Locust looks 30 tons size and needs to be 20 tons size.

View PostPale Jackal, on 01 November 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

As someone else observed, PGI has said re-scaling is too much work.

As clunky as it is, I think we're going to require 'mech specific buffs or specialities.

Maybe if they ever re-work the pilot trees, they will give you the option of spending XP to give your Awesome Prime +10% to PPC damage... or maybe they'll just give the variant a bonus to PPC damage... or maybe the ability to fire 3 PPCs without triggering ghost heat. Similarly, you could give Hunchbacks a damage reduction bonus for their hunch, or maybe in the case of the 9P, it gets a bonus to laser damage, or can boat 9 medium lasers without ghost heat.

Clunky, yes, but no more clunky than ghost heat. I'd rather have them do something like this than relegate certain 'mechs to inferior status due to hit boxes. I've already stopped piloting my X-5 because it's too damn fat.



Rescaling is NOT clunky! In every CAD program I have used it only takes a few moments. I understand that this is a bit more involved as there are texture maps etc to worry about, but it is not a terrible amount of work like everyone thinks it is. It would probably take a talented designer about a day to complete.

The thing that frustrates me the most is that they didn't pay attention to this stuff up front. And even after people complained they STILL don't seem to pay attention to scale.

#19 sC4r

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 03:29 PM

View PostFunkadelic Mayhem, on 01 November 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

forgive me. I dont understand how cosmetics effects balance.


to demonstrate what you think a cosmetic
this is to some degree FPS game in which size of target makes HUGE impact on the gameplay so here it is

i have no idea whats so ever about this game or franchise and someone spits on me these 3 images
https://static.mwome...957EDFAA4B4.jpg
https://static.mwome...492DEE82C6B.jpg
http://static.mwomer...8053B3932A2.jpg

if i take a look which one is biggest in your opinion?
hard pick right? same background the mechs stand on same spot... to be honest i would pick jager as biggest, and locust as smallest but the difference wouldnt be by a lot from those pictures

and if this isnt going to kick you sane consider this
imagine locust running at 150km/h
now imagine atlas running at 150km/h

okay stop laughing and say which one will be eazier to hit from same distance

#20 Strum Wealh

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 03:45 PM

View PostsC4r, on 01 November 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:


to demonstrate what you think a cosmetic
this is to some degree FPS game in which size of target makes HUGE impact on the gameplay so here it is

i have no idea whats so ever about this game or franchise and someone spits on me these 3 images
https://static.mwome...957EDFAA4B4.jpg
https://static.mwome...492DEE82C6B.jpg
http://static.mwomer...8053B3932A2.jpg

if i take a look which one is biggest in your opinion?
hard pick right? same background the mechs stand on same spot... to be honest i would pick jager as biggest, and locust as smallest but the difference wouldnt be by a lot from those pictures

and if this isnt going to kick you sane consider this
imagine locust running at 150km/h
now imagine atlas running at 150km/h

okay stop laughing and say which one will be eazier to hit from same distance

Those images aren't to scale - they're promotional art, meant to show off detail. :ph34r:

Edited by Strum Wealh, 01 November 2013 - 03:45 PM.






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