158 replies to this topic

[Mudhutwarrior]

LordBraxton, on 08 November 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

The 4man premade boogieman is garbage, I almost exclusively PUG and I'm at 1,673 / 1,161


Elo actually does something

when I PUG I feel like an unstoppable god, fighting nubs who stand still to aim and don't torso twist

When I drop with 3 friends I fight elite players who remove my side torso in two shots if I poke an inch out of cover

It is easier to win when pugging, dropping in a 4 man = stiff competition

end of story

I dont beleive any of this.

[Roadbeer]

Mudhutwarrior, on 10 November 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I dont beleive any of this.

That's because it doesn't fit in with your "Evil Premade"/Victim/Martyr narrative.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Randalf Yorgen, on 09 November 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

But he's not wrong with his comments. You have a jaded, biased view and you take any and every opertunity to try and promote it even though you have been given the benifit of the doubt, even though people have in a non agressive way accepted your statements but have countered with the same fair handedness. Some even show the pros and cons of both sides but you chose to sit on your little hill and try to behave like something omnipotent, who can't be wrong and who allows for no chance that anyone else is right and you might be wrong. Time to get over yourself... what's the new catch phrase around here? oh ya, time for you to just "Move Along"

Far from true, a few balanced individuals on the forum have taught me a lot and changed my opinions on several matters.
Some things though defy logic like people giving me the teamplay argument about premades. Only a team on 12v because anywhere else you have pugs who are ignored on chat or in the fight. When I drop its with 12 players all on my team not 4 or 8 with the rest just fluff. If an argumetn is actually logical and reasoned I do take note of it and it will alter my opinions either right then or after I have examined it. The bully methods usually applied here only teach me resolve. Never been a go along to get along person.

Roadbeer, on 10 November 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

That's because it doesn't fit in with your "Evil Premade"/Victim/Martyr narrative.

Sorry, I will have to buy an RV and watch ESPN to understand pretty much anything you have to say. Give me some time to frie my brain and I may start to see where your coming from.

[Ghogiel]

Caspian111, on 10 November 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

here is the topic for your answers.

http://mwomercs.com/...ed-matchmaking/

Yeah you do need to make a far larger sample.

Also those predictors you think you found that sway odds in favor of one team over the other won't affect Elo ratings* in the long term as they will average out over time and trend to affect all players equally.

*only argument can be made for premades who stack 4 733cs or 4 light mechs to make tonage imbalances.

Edited by Ghogiel, 10 November 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[Deathlike]

Mudhutwarrior, on 10 November 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Far from true, a few balanced individuals on the forum have taught me a lot and changed my opinions on several matters.
Some things though defy logic like people giving me the teamplay argument about premades. Only a team on 12v because anywhere else you have pugs who are ignored on chat or in the fight. When I drop its with 12 players all on my team not 4 or 8 with the rest just fluff. If an argumetn is actually logical and reasoned I do take note of it and it will alter my opinions either right then or after I have examined it. The bully methods usually applied here only teach me resolve. Never been a go along to get along person.

I'll believe it when I see it.

I've tried to make a reasonable discussion and all you did was defer to what I put in my location, which tells me you have no interest in examining the issue and just pushing your opinion as actual fact.

Edited by Deathlike, 10 November 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Deathlike, on 10 November 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

I'll believe it when I see it.

I've tried to make a reasonable discussion and all you did was defer to what I put in my location, which tells me you have no interest in examining the issue and just pushing your opinion as actual fact.

Im from your location was born and raised there, I told you why I left it with a funny story. about them fitting trigger lock on a Musket not fired since the revolution You put in your location with the Boston Strong thing which is funny in itself. Not in the least strong when their considering passing a law to search gun owners homes for safety checks. More like Boston lies down for tyrants and busybodies.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 10 November 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I dont beleive any of this.

Why? Cause nobody is capable of having a winning record as a PUG? His teams have won 59% of their Matches. He has more games played then I do as Anton, but his win percentage is just as good as My PUG Alt.

Mudhutwarrior, on 10 November 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Far from true, a few balanced individuals on the forum have taught me a lot and changed my opinions on several matters.
Some things though defy logic like people giving me the teamplay argument about premades. Only a team on 12v because anywhere else you have pugs who are ignored on chat or in the fight. When I drop its with 12 players all on my team not 4 or 8 with the rest just fluff. If an argumetn is actually logical and reasoned I do take note of it and it will alter my opinions either right then or after I have examined it. The bully methods usually applied here only teach me resolve. Never been a go along to get along person.

I don't see a Bully method as much as I see an equal share of chest thumping. 'I want the game made this way' *THUMP THUMP* answered by 'You can play the game just like we do. If you really wanted to' *THUMP THUMP* Only thing I see wrong is that neither side is wrong.

Quote

Sorry, I will have to buy an RV and watch ESPN to understand pretty much anything you have to say. Give me some time to frie my brain and I may start to see where your coming from.

And you wonder why folks stoop when they answer your posts

[Blurry]

Except that it hurts the game.

It already has a poor reputation online. Now by continuing to have premades in with pugs it continues to lower the standard further.
When you are getting stomped or have premades sayin how great they are in chat - well it turns off people.
I understand that the player pool is so small they cant seperate it. So dont worry you can continue to pug stomp but soon there wont be anyone else to stomp and what shall you do?

How about correct the issue and attack the poor reputation. Sort things out and seperate premades. Give everyone a fair chance and at the same time make a concerted PR blitz about it.
That would require work and all the premade QQ about not pug stomping would never stop. So no chance it will ever happen so might as well join everyone else and leave right?

What the hell ever happened to having fun?

Edited by Blurry, 11 November 2013 - 06:51 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Blurry, on 11 November 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Except that it hurts the game.

It already has a poor reputation online. Now by continuing to have premades in with pugs it continues to lower the standard further.
When you are getting stomped or have premades sayin how great they are in chat - well it turns off people.
I understand that the player pool is so small they cant seperate it. So dont worry you can continue to pug stomp but soon there wont be anyone else to stomp and what shall you do?

How about correct the issue and attack the poor reputation. Sort things out and seperate premades. Give everyone a fair chance and at the same time make a concerted PR blitz about it.
That would require work and all the premade QQ about not pug stomping would never stop. So no chance it will ever happen so might as well join everyone else and leave right?

Is there other games that separate PUGs and Pre Mades? Cause by my reading, it is something that all Online 'team' games suffer.

[ManaValkyrie]

I don't think I have come across any team based online game where you drop into a match/game/session where you don't run into a bunch of players from the same 'team/clan/unit' mixed in with random players. Most other games do at least have player lobbies that allow for private matches. Where private matches can be used to teach new players fundamentals of games, organize player based tournaments.etc.

I play both solo and group drops (4 mans), very rarely do I partake in 12 man drops, simply because of my available play times. I probably sit in the upper mid range of the ELO bands, seen as I see most of the names in here when I drop at certain times. The thing I will say is that MM will skew a teams composition to push you towards a 50/50 win ratio, its designed that way. And whether I am grouped or not it does push that way. I disagree that the system will try to push a loss/win streak on people as once you get close to the 50/50 mark it comes down to a -TEAMS- ability to then win the match.

Usually as stated before those matches are lost/won due to player made mistakes, the team not focusing on objectives (cap points in conquest, defending your base in assault.etc), the individual or couple of players going off from the main group and getting themselves focused down by the enemy. At close to the 50/50 mark it's going to be which team plays smartest.

No offense to the solo players, I do enjoy the odd drop or two solo, just for a change of pace or when I don't have time to get group drops in. But I would rather drop with my friends on a voice comms, who will help each other, work together towards winning the match, simply because I have a better time even when I lose the match.

As for the =evil premades= argument. My unit never gives people grief for being new, generally tries to work with the other 8 players in our drop to win the match. Secondly I got into a 4 man not to stomp all over random players, but to have fun, my biggest complaint right now is when there are more players than you can group with but not enough for a 12 man. Great fun =NOT= to not be able to play with your friends.

As an aside note:
If you are having a bad streak of matches the following things can help, take a break for a bit and that will help change who you que with. Change your weight class, as from what I can see by my solo pug/group drops and experimented synch drops, you have different ELO modifiers for each weight class. If you are still not having much luck, give the public TS's a try, grouping up will modify your ELO bracket for a set of matches.

[Shredhead]

Mudhutwarrior, on 10 November 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I dont beleive any of this.

Yeah, and that's your whole problem, boy. You don't understand that we as premades are matched against other premades every single match. I made the effort to look into it every game the last days. There was always at least one premade of 3 or 4 on the other side. I dare you to look out for it yourself!
Telltale signs of premades:
Pre match - One of them takes company command to prevent being shuffled around; same house icons in a lance
During match - One of them relays orders according to their plan, or something like "follow us" etc.; they move as a lance; greetings and announcements in chat
Post match - Around the same damage all over one lance and/or highest lance damage

Now, does a premade on your side prevent you from being beaten, even stomped? Nope. 3 or 4 guys, even the most skilled ones, can't make up for 8 bad players, or even 5 or 6. There are also enough really bad premades out there, and your 3 or 4 high skilled Lonewolves can't outplay the other team alone. Stuff your premade bogeyman and concentrate on becoming better. That's the way to go.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shredhead, on 11 November 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Yeah, and that's your whole problem, boy. You don't understand that we as premades are matched against other premades ALMOST every single match. I made the effort to look into it every game the last days. There was always at least one premade of 3 or 4 on the other side. I dare you to look out for it yourself!
Telltale signs of premades:
Pre match - One of them takes company command to prevent being shuffled around; same house icons in a lance
During match - One of them relays orders according to their plan, or something like "follow us" etc.; they move as a lance; greetings and announcements in chat
Post match - Around the same damage all over one lance and/or highest lance damage

Now, does a premade on your side prevent you from being beaten, even stomped? Nope. 3 or 4 guys, even the most skilled ones, can't make up for 8 bad players, or even 5 or 6. There are also enough really bad premades out there, and your 3 or 4 high skilled Lonewolves can't outplay the other team alone. Stuff your premade bogeyman and concentrate on becoming better. That's the way to go.

I had to FTFY. We cannot be certain that it happens every single Match.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I really don't care about losing streaks because the cbill earnings are pathetic whether you win or not.

[Blurry]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 November 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

Is there other games that separate PUGs and Pre Mades? Cause by my reading, it is something that all Online 'team' games suffer.

you are kidding right?
i mean really?
mmos separate for sakes.

[Joseph Mallan]

Blurry, on 11 November 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

you are kidding right?
i mean really?
mmos separate for sakes.

Actually I have only played MW:O so Humor me. Cause as i read em most game forums show a segment that rants against Pre mades.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Blurry, on 11 November 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

What the hell ever happened to having fun?

I have fun, even when playing solo and getting rolfstomped, with occasional wafflestomp to break the monotony!

It's even more fun when I drop in a pre-made, as I have people to talk with. Sometimes we get all intarwebz robots iz srius bidness but mostly we just run the mechs we want to run or if I am leveling a Light others will pick fast mechs so we can all roll together. But unless it's a training session, the focus is on having fun. winning or losing is secondary. As long as we fight well, and the opfor does as well, GG!! and on to the next match.

I think the problem many PUGgers have is they act like it's a solo game, even when they complain no one works as a team. Follow the herd, even if they are doing the "wrong thing". If they all head to the center of the map, then either join them and hope to win the fight, or flank the enemy and try for some back shots. Or run cap the base in your faster than normal heavy and hope to gank some Lights that come to stop you.

Or as others have said, get on NGNG or a House server and have some fun!! Or find a good merc unit (hint hint)

[Vanguard319]

Mudhutwarrior, on 02 November 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

If you pug thats pretty normal. I know some will come in and say they win big. Except they you see them on the feild and that fantasy evaporates quickly. No one can survive under fast called coordinated fire. Past that you type you die so most matches have little or no communication.
Just get used to losing a lot and waiting for good matches. Somedays its good but most its bad.

This. I don't consider myself to be a bad pilot, but this is what almost always kills me. It wouldn't be bad if my team mates stood their ground and fought together, or assisted people being singled out. The only thing worse than pugs who won't help you are the ones who insist on humping your *** while you're clearly being ripped apart, and desperately trying to back into cover. Occasionally I get a team that actually can coordinate, and win because they used smart tactics and worked as a unit, but these are too few and far between.

[WarHippy]

Ghogiel, on 02 November 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Why people state fact that Elo was initially made to score players in chess, but forget the fact that it has found application in team sports and video games where it also works.
Oh and yes W/L is the single most important stat to use in a rating. Especially in this game. All the other stats are a really bad idea to adjust values from.

People talk about Chess because that is what Elo was made for. Yes, they use modified Elo in a lot of team sports, but with sports the team members remain predominately static allowing Elo rankings to work properly. As for video games there are indeed a number of them that use Elo, but I wouldn't exactly call it a success because you get these same complaints in those games as you do here.

[Taemien]

ELO is never going to be perfect. It's a dynamic system designed to revolve around a dynamic player base. Which means while it isn't perfect, its going to be as close as any other system could be.

Here's whats happening to new players:

Their ELO is set to a base level. Over time, this base level fluctuates based on players around that score winning 50% of the time. This could mean eventually the base ELO scored players could end up better then the noobs that start the game. When this happens, noobs that start the game lose most of their first games and their ELO drops until they are with other noobs. Then they end up in a sort of ELO hell while they climb over each other.

Effectively it means the system is working. But no one likes to be bad at something. And there is one issue I see with this. These players are getting better then one another, but not actually learning the ropes as they should.

See lets rewind back to prior to ELO.

Instead of playing against other noobs, newer players would play against everyone. We called this the baptism by fire. New players would get toasted, literally. But the thing with this was, they would learn the ropes from the best. Ok that guy utterly destroyed me, why is that? Vs in a ELO, it was just two poor fools figuring the game out.

In my opinion, ELO makes it harder for people to learn to be true vets. You become a Vet by playing against Vets.

However.. the majority of you don't wish to be matched against those hardcore players. And sadly, I don't believe you will be a great player as quickly as you could be. Eventually you'll crawl up their, but it would be much quicker without ELO.

There IS a way around that. Join a unit and play in premades. Yeah.. you'll suck, but you'll have great people to help you along, teach you the ropes, and you'll be learning against real opponents. If you want to be the best you can be, join a unit. This will have the side effect of artificially inflating your ELO, so you will be playing against harder opponents when you solo queue. But you'll be the better player for it.

Don't let being casual be an excuse not to do this. Units seldom require more then a few hours per week for activity. And most are very accommodating for RL stuff.

Edited by Taemien, 11 November 2013 - 12:17 PM.