68 replies to this topic

[Satan n stuff]

3rdworld, on 04 November 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

I posted about this in July, when they first implemented heat scale. Even sent in a ticket support forum the whole nine yards.
Got nothing. The first shot is 2 PPCs per weapon group, both on Chainfire. It is impossible to get more than 2 PPCs in a .5 sec interval, yet it triggers Ghost heat every time.

It appears you're trying to manually fire two groups at once. Unless you're firing both groups at once using a macro you'll have a slight delay between shots from each fire group. This causes the second volley to fire before the ghost heat timer resets, resulting in lots of ghost heat. If you want to use PPCs like that it's best to avoid chainfire and just fire one group at a time, or use a macro of some sort.

[3rdworld]

***** n stuff, on 04 November 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

It appears you're trying to manually fire two groups at once. Unless you're firing both groups at once using a macro you'll have a slight delay between shots from each fire group. This causes the second volley to fire before the ghost heat timer resets, resulting in lots of ghost heat. If you want to use PPCs like that it's best to avoid chainfire and just fire one group at a time, or use a macro of some sort.

Avoiding Chainfire is the reason I posted it. The mechanic is supposed to shoot each weapon in the group .5 secs apart from each other.

So 2 groups of 2 weapons could never shoot more than 2 weapons in a .5 sec interval. Meaning they should never trigger ghost heat. But they clearly do.

[MustrumRidcully]

3rdworld, on 04 November 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

I posted about this in July, when they first implemented heat scale. Even sent in a ticket support forum the whole nine yards.
Got nothing. The first shot is 2 PPCs per weapon group, both on Chainfire. It is impossible to get more than 2 PPCs in a .5 sec interval, yet it triggers Ghost heat every time.

Do I understand this correctly:
You have 4 PPCs.
You have put 2 PPCs in one group and 2 PPCs in another group, and then set these groups to chain-fire.

You then fire both groups at once, which fires the first weapon in each group, and then you fire again to fire the second weapon in each group. Theoretically this gives you 2 PPCs followed by 2 PPCs in a 0.5 seconds.

But for some reason, it'S not counted as such.

My guess for "some reason" is that firing the two groups implicitely causes a tiny delay between the first PPC and the second PPC. So you fire PPC 1 at 0 seconds, and PPC 2 at 0+x seconds.
PPC 3 is available for fire 0.5 seconds after PPC 1. But, 0.5 seconds after PPC 1 is 0.5-x seconds after PPC 2. So the actual delay the ghost heat system registers is less than 0.5 seconds if x > 0, and thus it triggers ghost heat on PPC 3. Worse, now it resets the trigger to 0, so PPC 4 will also trigger ghost heat, even though PPC will fire at 0.5 + x seconds, because the ghost heat timer has been reset to 0 just x seconds before.

This could all be fixed if the actual ghost heat interval was set to 0.4 seconds, for example.

[Satan n stuff]

3rdworld, on 04 November 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Avoiding Chainfire is the reason I posted it. The mechanic is supposed to shoot each weapon in the group .5 secs apart from each other.

So 2 groups of 2 weapons could never shoot more than 2 weapons in a .5 sec interval. Meaning they should never trigger ghost heat. But they clearly do.

No, you get ghost heat because you're manually firing each group.
You're firing the first PPC of the first group, and then the first PPC of the second group shortly afterwards. Then you fire the second PPC of the first group 0.5 seconds after you fired the first and because your timing wasn't perfect the time between shots is less than 0.5 second, meaning this counts towards ghost heat as your third PPC shot. You get ghost heat on that one, followed by ghost heat on the second PPC of the second group, which counts as shot number four.
It's stupid I know, but you can't chainfire them that way unless you use a macro.
Just be glad you don't have a quad AC/2 jager, if you rapidfire macro that you're at 8 shots for ghost heat after 1.37 seconds, and it goes up by 8 every second from there.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 04 November 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Hah - I am faster than *****!

[3rdworld]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 November 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

Do I understand this correctly:
You have 4 PPCs.
You have put 2 PPCs in one group and 2 PPCs in another group, and then set these groups to chain-fire.

You then fire both groups at once, which fires the first weapon in each group, and then you fire again to fire the second weapon in each group. Theoretically this gives you 2 PPCs followed by 2 PPCs in a 0.5 seconds.

But for some reason, it'S not counted as such.

My guess for "some reason" is that firing the two groups implicitely causes a tiny delay between the first PPC and the second PPC. So you fire PPC 1 at 0 seconds, and PPC 2 at 0+x seconds.
PPC 3 is available for fire 0.5 seconds after PPC 1. But, 0.5 seconds after PPC 1 is 0.5-x seconds after PPC 2. So the actual delay the ghost heat system registers is less than 0.5 seconds if x > 0, and thus it triggers ghost heat on PPC 3. Worse, now it resets the trigger to 0, so PPC 4 will also trigger ghost heat, even though PPC will fire at 0.5 + x seconds, because the ghost heat timer has been reset to 0 just x seconds before.

This could all be fixed if the actual ghost heat interval was set to 0.4 seconds, for example.

2 groups, both on chain fire, each with 2 PPCs.

Press & hold fire on both groups to let all 4 weapons cycle. This causes ghost heat. Like you said likely because they include .5 in the timing, instead of timing < .5 sec. Which is comical because their suggestion to avoid ghost heat was to use chainfire, yet it triggers Ghost heat.

How it works:

• We set a threshold of the number of weapons fired simultaneously. By simultaneously fired, we mean weapons of the exact same type being fired in under a 0.5 second time range. This 0.5 second time comes from the amount of time between weapon switches when Chain Fire is engaged. Chain Fire is a mechanism meant to help MechWarriors manage their heat and we do not want to punish those who use this mechanic.

Edited by 3rdworld, 04 November 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

3rdworld, on 04 November 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

2 groups, both on chain fire, each with 2 PPCs.

Press & hold fire on both groups to let all 4 weapons cycle. This causes ghost heat. Like you said likely because they include .5 in the timing, instead of timing < .5 sec. Which is comical because their suggestion to avoid ghost heat was to use chainfire, yet it triggers Ghost heat.

How it works:

• We set a threshold of the number of weapons fired simultaneously. By simultaneously fired, we mean weapons of the exact same type being fired in under a 0.5 second time range. This 0.5 second time comes from the amount of time between weapon switches when Chain Fire is engaged. Chain Fire is a mechanism meant to help MechWarriors manage their heat and we do not want to punish those who use this mechanic.

I know how it works, sad thing is, the guys at PGI apparently don't. While I personally detest the system I think it's ridiculous that they never bothered to fix such an obvious bug. The thing is that if this had been done by someone competent there would never have been a bug in the first place, as it's one of the obvious things to watch out for when building or testing such a system.

[MustrumRidcully]

You're just not playing the game how it is supposed to be played. You shouldn't chain-fire only with half-measures. Either full group-fire, or full chain-fire. None of this fancy mixing, that's just wrong.

[Bront]

OneEyed Jack, on 03 November 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

No it didn't.

Fast Fire (or Quick fire) elite skill no longer works. If it did, the AC2 would fire fast enough to create ghost heat regardless, and I've seen video evidence that it does not work on other weapons at all. Making 2 of 4 that don't work.

[Bront]

3rdworld, on 04 November 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

So 2 groups of 2 weapons could never shoot more than 2 weapons in a .5 sec interval. Meaning they should never trigger ghost heat. But they clearly do.

Except it's extremely hard to trigger both at the exact same time. if you're .01 seconds off, you're in ghost heat teritory.

[3rdworld]

Bront, on 05 November 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Except it's extremely hard to trigger both at the exact same time. if you're .01 seconds off, you're in ghost heat teritory.

How? weapons are grouped 1&3, 2&4.

at 0 sec, weapon 1 fires. at .1sec weapon 2 fires. at .5sec weapon 3 shoots, at .6 weapon 4 shoots.

In an exclusive .5 sec range, weapons 1&3 can never be in the same range, likewise weapons 2 & 4 can never be in the same range.

Timing makes no difference, as soon as weapon 3 is fired, it is outside the range of weapon 1, and when weapon 4 is shot, it is outside the range of weapon 2. If the timing is true as a exclusive range of .5sec, and chainfire shoots at .5sec it is totally impossible regardless of how close or far the weapon groups are triggered.

[Phromethius]

3rdworld, on 05 November 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

How? weapons are grouped 1&3, 2&4.

at 0 sec, weapon 1 fires. at .1sec weapon 2 fires. at .5sec weapon 3 shoots, at .6 weapon 4 shoots.

In an exclusive .5 sec range, weapons 1&3 can never be in the same range, likewise weapons 2 & 4 can never be in the same range.

Timing makes no difference, as soon as weapon 3 is fired, it is outside the range of weapon 1, and when weapon 4 is shot, it is outside the range of weapon 2. If the timing is true as a exclusive range of .5sec, and chainfire shoots at .5sec it is totally impossible regardless of how close or far the weapon groups are triggered.

You are mistaken how the weapon groups are. They are grouped for the purposes of firing only, not for ghost heat. Your Mech as a whole is firing within the ghost heat time because when you fire weapon 1 group 1 and weapon 2 group 2 that is already two PPCs within the .5 timer. In your own example as soon as weapon 3 is fired it IS within range not of 1 but of 2 within the other grouping. Thus causing the ghost heat. Its near impossible to get the fraction of a second calculated without macros. Thats why your setup with a macro works but with human judgement and synapse response speed it forces you into Ghost heat.

EDIT: TLDR Weapon 2 fires at .1 and weapon 3 fires at .5 only .4 seconds apart, causing ghost heat. doesnt matter how it was toggled into a grouping, the mech still fired too many times "simultaneously"

Edited by Phromethius, 05 November 2013 - 08:23 AM.

[Bront]

3rdworld, on 05 November 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

How? weapons are grouped 1&3, 2&4.

at 0 sec, weapon 1 fires. at .1sec weapon 2 fires. at .5sec weapon 3 shoots, at .6 weapon 4 shoots.

In an exclusive .5 sec range, weapons 1&3 can never be in the same range, likewise weapons 2 & 4 can never be in the same range.

Timing makes no difference, as soon as weapon 3 is fired, it is outside the range of weapon 1, and when weapon 4 is shot, it is outside the range of weapon 2. If the timing is true as a exclusive range of .5sec, and chainfire shoots at .5sec it is totally impossible regardless of how close or far the weapon groups are triggered.

If groups 1 and 3 (and then 2 and 4) are not the same set of ghost heat weapons, then that's fine. But if 1, 2, 3 and 4 are all different large lasers, then you'll suffer the ghost heat of firing 4 LLs.

[Joseph Mallan]

***** n stuff, on 03 November 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Because whoever programs these features doesn't bother to think them through, and neither do the guys who design them for that matter.

I would hate to see these guys design a car!

[Satan n stuff]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 November 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

I would hate to see these guys design a car!

Steering wheel came off? Engine fell out? Rear view mirror stuck?
Working as intended.

[3rdworld]

Phromethius, on 05 November 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

You are mistaken how the weapon groups are. They are grouped for the purposes of firing only, not for ghost heat. Your Mech as a whole is firing within the ghost heat time because when you fire weapon 1 group 1 and weapon 2 group 2 that is already two PPCs within the .5 timer. In your own example as soon as weapon 3 is fired it IS within range not of 1 but of 2 within the other grouping. Thus causing the ghost heat. Its near impossible to get the fraction of a second calculated without macros. Thats why your setup with a macro works but with human judgement and synapse response speed it forces you into Ghost heat.

EDIT: TLDR Weapon 2 fires at .1 and weapon 3 fires at .5 only .4 seconds apart, causing ghost heat. doesnt matter how it was toggled into a grouping, the mech still fired too many times "simultaneously"

Shouldn't matter. 4 will always be .5 seconds away from 2. Weapon 3 is .4 seconds from 2 & .1 seconds from 4. So if you are excluding .5 seconds, then there is only 2 fired inside that interval either weapons 2&3 or 3&4. Besides that the game assess it a 4 PPC penalty. It would need to be including PPC # 4 in that calculation which by any measure should fall outside of the .5 second interval from weapon 1.

There are 3 fired including .5 seconds, but that is the entire purpose of the post. They are not supposed to punish chain fire and should only trigger Ghost heat if they are fired LESS than .5 seconds apart. If chain fire is working correctly having it set up as I do, it should be impossible to trigger ghost heat. Yet it consistently does.

I find it incredibly ridiculous that their HSR time-stamp system cannot handle tiny fractions of a second or include latency in the Ghost heat trigger.

Edited by 3rdworld, 05 November 2013 - 10:00 AM.

[M00N B34M]

Aww trying to get around ghost heat and it isn't working for you? Poor boy.

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure the system is working as intended.

Have you tried grouping them up into 1 group of 4 and chain fire them? If that adds ghost heat, then I might have sympathy.

[Phromethius]

Nurgz, on 05 November 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Aww trying to get around ghost heat and it isn't working for you? Poor boy.

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure the system is working as intended.

Have you tried grouping them up into 1 group of 4 and chain fire them? If that adds ghost heat, then I might have sympathy.

This is what I was trying to explain. Separating them into two groups of two chained is CAUSING the ghost heat. Because of inherent lag time and reflex time. You can make the two weapon groups work WITH A MACRO. The second that third PPC fires in the OPs setup he is getting hit with a extreme heat penalty. I suggest you look at this page:

http://mwo-builds.ne...ons-table/1001/

All 4 in one grouping set to chain fire will never hit this threshold. Or take your two groups and manually fire them linked. [left click, 1 & 3 simultaneously go off, no ghost heat. count to yourself "one one thousand" and as you say thousand you can right click and fire 2 & 4, again no ghost heat, just normal PPC heat values.

[Almond Brown]

Is it just me or does this place seem to have an awful lot of resident un-employed comedians?

Edited by Almond Brown, 05 November 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Nurgz, on 05 November 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Aww trying to get around ghost heat and it isn't working for you? Poor boy.

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure the system is working as intended.

Have you tried grouping them up into 1 group of 4 and chain fire them? If that adds ghost heat, then I might have sympathy.

He isn't cheating. He's doing exactly what the system supposedly tells him to do. No macros to help him, just using the tools given. And it doesn't work.

That's just dumb.

But of course, it's still quite possible to use a macro to do this Dual PPC + Dual PPC thingy if you want to. You just need a slightly longer delay than 0.5 seconds.

And let's not forget that the whole thing is wreaking havoc with AC/2s, too. If you don't fire your AC/2s every 0.5 seconds, you don't need more than one AC/2.