68 replies to this topic

[3rdworld]

Nurgz, on 05 November 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Aww trying to get around ghost heat and it isn't working for you? Poor boy.

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure the system is working as intended.

Have you tried grouping them up into 1 group of 4 and chain fire them? If that adds ghost heat, then I might have sympathy.

How exactly am I trying to get around the heat system? I am just trying to use it in the manner suggest by the developers. And it doesn't work.

So no it is not working as intended, at all.

[OneEyed Jack]

Bront, on 05 November 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

Fast Fire (or Quick fire) elite skill no longer works. If it did, the AC2 would fire fast enough to create ghost heat regardless, and I've seen video evidence that it does not work on other weapons at all. Making 2 of 4 that don't work.

You're wrong.

Fast Fire testing using UAC because they most easily demonstrate the differences between Fast Fire and no-Fast Fire, as the only weapons that can actually shoot faster than their cooldown.


I'm not sure why AC2s aren't triggering it by way of faring faster than the interval, since I haven't tested them.

3rdworld, on 05 November 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

Shouldn't matter. 4 will always be .5 seconds away from 2. Weapon 3 is .4 seconds from 2 & .1 seconds from 4. So if you are excluding .5 seconds, then there is only 2 fired inside that interval either weapons 2&3 or 3&4. Besides that the game assess it a 4 PPC penalty. It would need to be including PPC # 4 in that calculation which by any measure should fall outside of the .5 second interval from weapon 1.

There are 3 fired including .5 seconds, but that is the entire purpose of the post. They are not supposed to punish chain fire and should only trigger Ghost heat if they are fired LESS than .5 seconds apart. If chain fire is working correctly having it set up as I do, it should be impossible to trigger ghost heat. Yet it consistently does.

I find it incredibly ridiculous that their HSR time-stamp system cannot handle tiny fractions of a second or include latency in the Ghost heat trigger.

You are correct about how it should work, according to the way they described it. But how they described it and how they designed it don't appear to bear much relation to each other. Rather than looking back 0.5s from the time of shooting, it's using a timer that resets every time a weapon is fired. Still not clear if it was a conscious design choice to nerf macro use (unlikely) or just a bad design choice that happened to to work out in such a way that they could claim it's anti-macro, and just happens to screw over multi-chain set-ups.

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 05 November 2013 - 08:22 PM.

[GoatHILL]

Chain fire only effects the weapons in that group. Chain fire does not effect weapons fired in another group. You fire group 1 at 0.0 sec. then fire group 2 at .25 sec. chain fire on group 1 fires at .50 sec. then group 2 at .75 sec. cause ghost heat from shot 3 and 4. If you want to chain fire 4 ppcs put them all in 1 group on chain fire or fire them 2 at a time in 2 groups .50 seconds apart using a macro.

[3rdworld]

GoatHILL, on 06 November 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

Chain fire only effects the weapons in that group. Chain fire does not effect weapons fired in another group. You fire group 1 at 0.0 sec. then fire group 2 at .25 sec. chain fire on group 1 fires at .50 sec. then group 2 at .75 sec. cause ghost heat from shot 3 and 4. If you want to chain fire 4 ppcs put them all in 1 group on chain fire or fire them 2 at a time in 2 groups .50 seconds apart using a macro.

Please show me 3 shots in that scenario that are less than .5 seconds apart.

[GoatHILL]

I was referring to the PPC vid. My point was and is the chain fire does not effect weapons outside of their group.

[Satan n stuff]

3rdworld, on 06 November 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

Please show me 3 shots in that scenario that are less than .5 seconds apart.

1 and 2, 2 and 3, 3 and 4. Do I get a prize?

[3rdworld]

GoatHILL, on 06 November 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

I was referring to the PPC vid. My point was and is the chain fire does not effect weapons outside of their group.

Of course it doesn't. But the point stands that using the 2 groups with 2 weapons on chainfire it should be impossible to trigger Ghost heat. Yet it is fairly easy to do.

***** n stuff, on 06 November 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

1 and 2, 2 and 3, 3 and 4. Do I get a prize?

3rdworld, on 06 November 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

Please show me 3 shots in that scenario that are less than .5 seconds apart.

Edited by 3rdworld, 06 November 2013 - 06:19 AM.

[Bront]

OneEyed Jack, on 05 November 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

Fast Fire testing using UAC because they most easily demonstrate the differences between Fast Fire and no-Fast Fire, as the only weapons that can actually shoot faster than their cooldown.

Try it with any weapon other than a UAC5. The UAC5 can fire early.

[Bront]

So, 2 LLs on chain fire on group 1 AND 2 LLs on chain fire on group 2.

GoatHILL, on 06 November 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

You fire group 1 at 0.0 sec.

LLs shot: 1. Ghost Heat Timer reset to 0 seconds.

GoatHILL, on 06 November 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

then fire group 2 at .25 sec.

LLs shot: 2. Ghost Heat Timer reset to 0 seconds.

GoatHILL, on 06 November 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

chain fire on group 1 fires at .50 sec.

LLs shot: 3. Ghost Heat Timer reset to 0 seconds. Ghost Heat applied for 3 LLs

GoatHILL, on 06 November 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

then group 2 at .75 sec.

LLs shot: 4. Ghost Heat Timer reset to 0 seconds. Ghost Heat applied for 4 LLs

[OneEyed Jack]

Bront, on 06 November 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

Try it with any weapon other than a UAC5. The UAC5 can fire early.

And you can tell when it fires early. I've made other macros, and always factored in Fast Fire. If you want further testing, you do it.

[Phromethius]

@3rdworld,

You are simply not understanding the weapon grouping system. It is dynamic. And can change on the pilots whim, I do it in almost EVERY battle. This "grouping" system has NOTHING to do with the Heat system or Ghost heat. I already explained quite clearly how Ghost heat is applied. So has several other people. If you fire more than 2 large laser or PPCs or whatever similar weapon REGARDLESS of its place in a weapon group with any margin other than .5 seconds you have ghost heat.

Your situation without a timed macro is causing your THIRD AND FOURTH shot to produce ghost heat because of it's relation to the second shot which you think is simultaneous to your first but is not because of human lag. The only way for that to work is to fire two then manually wait (or MACRO the wait for you) then fire after .5 seconds. It's very very simple and I can't believe after three pages you are still fighting the notion that it shouldn't work that way.

[3rdworld]

Phromethius, on 06 November 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

@3rdworld,

You are simply not understanding the weapon grouping system. It is dynamic. And can change on the pilots whim, I do it in almost EVERY battle. This "grouping" system has NOTHING to do with the Heat system or Ghost heat. I already explained quite clearly how Ghost heat is applied. So has several other people. If you fire more than 2 large laser or PPCs or whatever similar weapon REGARDLESS of its place in a weapon group with any margin other than .5 seconds you have ghost heat.

Your situation without a timed macro is causing your THIRD AND FOURTH shot to produce ghost heat because of it's relation to the second shot which you think is simultaneous to your first but is not because of human lag. The only way for that to work is to fire two then manually wait (or MACRO the wait for you) then fire after .5 seconds. It's very very simple and I can't believe after three pages you are still fighting the notion that it shouldn't work that way.

How you can miss the entire point, or fail to read Garths example of how to avoid ghost heat by using chain fire is amazing.


Basically nothing you said has anything to do with the point I am making: That their suggestion to avoid ghost heat by using chain fire doesn't work.

[Phromethius]

3rdworld, on 06 November 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

How you can miss the entire point, or fail to read Garths example of how to avoid ghost heat by using chain fire is amazing.


Basically nothing you said has anything to do with the point I am making: That their suggestion to avoid ghost heat by using chain fire doesn't work.

What's amazing is that you fail to see the root of your problem. YOUR understanding of "chain fire" is wrong. You want to "chain fire" a set of two alpha strikes consisting of two simultaneous lasers or ppcs or whatever. Chain fire as the Devs put it into the game is not meant to bypass Ghost heat but heat management in general. EXAMPLE:

Hunchback 4p, 9 medium lasers.
Weapon group 1 (all 9 meds ) link fired ALPHA STRIKE creates ghost heat
Weapon group 2 (3 meds arms and head) link fired alpha strike of sorts used above 40% heat for heat management
Weapon group 3 (all six meds in torso) CHAIN FIRED for heat management above 60% and near cap

If i use weapon group 1 I will always create ghost heat. (6 med is the limit for that weapon type)

a combo of group 2 and 3 can create ghost heat if I continually press the group 3 fire button bypassing the chain fire timer.

press and holding group 3 creates the ideal chain fire mechanic and fires off my grouping of lasers precisely .5 seconds apart.

Chain fire is for HEAT period not a counter to ghost heat. It can be over ridden through mashing the button. I understand ghost heat intimately. Your application of weapon grouping and button mashing is not what chain fire is designed to achieve.

As stated before a simple test of grouping all four of your energy weapons into ONE group and chain fire those, will prove your accusation about ghost heat wrong. See Bront's post above which is how you are getting ghost heat in your set up.

[Bront]

OneEyed Jack, on 06 November 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

And you can tell when it fires early. I've made other macros, and always factored in Fast Fire. If you want further testing, you do it.

If you could, I'd appreciate it. On a "I think I'm right, but I'd rather have more proof" If I'm wrong, then hey, I'm wrong.

Try both a AC5 and an AC2. It's possible it just got turned off for the AC2.

Edited by Bront, 06 November 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[DemonRaziel]

And this, dear Paul, is why it's not a good idea to come up with complex and overly complicated systems that are difficult to explain, to comprehend and apparently to code as well...

The amount of reading comprehension fail on the side of some posters is mind boggling.

3rdworld is correct - chain firing 2 groups of 2 LLs/PPCs should not trigger the ghost heat, because there are no more than 2 weapons (one from each group) fired within a give 0.5s period.

The timer resets mentioned earlier in this thread by Bront are causing the issue and it's clearly a bug. Same bug that causes heat penalties for "manual chain firing" 3 PPC 0.66 secs apart with 0.33 sec breaks between individual shots.

[MustrumRidcully]

ALso, if you got 4 PPCs and fire only 2, that is never an alpha strike.

An alpha strike is firing all your weapons (in the table top, in a 10 second long turn, but who's counting).

[GalaxyBluestar]

FupDup, on 03 November 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

ghost heat mechs... Oh, they're not nearly as bad. Heat neutral mechs are a winged spawn of S*tan. They killed John Lennon, burned down orphanages, made my poop watery last night, and I'm pretty sure that they've molested several children.

i've never been so tempted to have a quote as a sig before.

Sandpit, on 03 November 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

I run a 5LL stalker and never have an issue. I also run a couple of 4LL Bmasters. I just chain fire instead of alpha striking (except when it's a last ditch to kill a mech that I'm dueling with)

From just about everything I've experienced, read, and seen indicates that the people if really affects are the ones that want to alpha strike just about every time they pull the trigger

you and i know that chain firing is ineffecient even on an .05 scale, you and i know that whilst everyone else can spam their group fire you've got to play a lot of hide and seek because you can't meet them at their game.

and in the end what are people going to choose? the skill/awearness attacker to get round that or the instant gratification attacker?

you and i know as energy mech pilots we are not amongest the top mechs or even secondary mechs. energy based mechs are in the higher skill bracket for viability now. they used to be good at middle ranged sniping and were workable to get out of brawling trouble, that ability has been cut you now have next to no chance if a brawler intercepts you so it's abilities have been neutured a bit which is sad.

the mech is fine for those who are familiar and can handle it, just a shame it's not on a level playing field anymore and few people will get to grips with them and field them now. i see next to none nowdays or stupid builds like 2ll 2lpl 2erll thinking they can get round GH. hense the amount of ac's about, everyone's moved to easy street and you should know i never part with my laser boats ever, i've always used them in every MW game i've played and GH isn't driving me away from them ever.

guess it's nice to run an exclusive mech now days.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 06 November 2013 - 11:28 PM.

[Mycrus]

It is all in the ping...

You are expecting that the server sees your 2 chain fire groups firing exactly at the same time...

You have to count the delay between your client telling the server imma chain firing 2 groups (aka ping).. This causes the "desynch" between the 2 chain fire groups..

a very real test is to try to switch zoom modes in the training ground vs a live drop..

In the training ground - changing the zoom mode results in instant action... In a live drop there is an ever so slight
delay when you change zoom mod
es...

[OneEyed Jack]

Bront, on 06 November 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

If you could, I'd appreciate it. On a "I think I'm right, but I'd rather have more proof" If I'm wrong, then hey, I'm wrong.

Try both a AC5 and an AC2. It's possible it just got turned off for the AC2.

DemonRaziel, on 06 November 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

The timer resets mentioned earlier in this thread by Bront are causing the issue and it's clearly a bug. Same bug that causes heat penalties for "manual chain firing" 3 PPC 0.66 secs apart with 0.33 sec breaks between individual shots.

It's not a bug. A bug would be a coding error causing something to not work as it's theoretically programmed to. This was a programming choice, where they didn't consider varying situations, such as this, and actually coded it to reset a timer with every shot, rather than looking back 0.5s and counting the shots. Situations such as this are unintentional consequences of a poorly thought-out system. They've even hinted that it was on purpose to nerf macro'd AC chains, but I expect not.

[Bront]

OneEyed Jack, on 07 November 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

It's not a bug. A bug would be a coding error causing something to not work as it's theoretically programmed to. This was a programming choice, where they didn't consider varying situations, such as this, and actually coded it to reset a timer with every shot, rather than looking back 0.5s and counting the shots. Situations such as this are unintentional consequences of a poorly thought-out system. They've even hinted that it was on purpose to nerf macro'd AC chains, but I expect not.

Interesting. Either they fixed it, or there was a problem with the other proof. FYI, the inconsistancy in the Training ground is because efficiencies don't work in the training ground (check your speed, no speed tweak). I stand corrected, thanks for the proof.

On the second point, the timer resetting after every firing is a design choice, and is done to prevent macroing around the issue. Otherwise, you could build the 6 PPC Stalker and macro the PPCs to fire at .26 seconds, and effectively get PPC Dakka that would be about as good as an alpha with no ghost heat.