55 replies to this topic

[Anixantheas]

Well lets take a look at 2 mediums.
Assassin - Light fast, good jumper with "ok" weapons, nothing groundbreaking about them (TT speeds 7, 11, 7)
Ok now lets get into a medium that everyone enjoys
Hunchback - "ok" speed, no jumping, but one BFG, I'm talking huge for that chasis at this tech level

Assassin is obviously a scout role, fast enough to compete with the lights, yet enough armor to take a few hits,
Hunchback is obviously a "don't get close to my assault" role, we are talking the panzer troops, you know the ones that escort the big guns to make sure that lights don't swarm and take it out.

[TavRaSel]

IT will all depend on how much we can do in the mechlab. In TT you could basically build a mech from the ground up to fill whatever role you wanted. I've rigged 100 ton mechs that were able to keep pace with most heavies, light mechs that were so fast they almost tripped over themselves, and mediums that carried almost as much firepower as an atlas but could barely move.
I am looking forward to getting into the lab just to see how much any chassis can be tweaked.

[Muddball]

Cerlin, on 16 June 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

This topic has been rehashed so many times....I would say essentially "balanced" is a loaded word.

Is is a loaded word. But what i've seen rehashed over and over is alot of ideas and desires and wants. What I couldn't find is any real tech answer.

Cerlin, on 16 June 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

Even if a ground speed of a mech is only a little higher than the heavy/assault, it should have better acceleration and maneuverability. If it doesnt then it would be harder to justify.

Awful lot of "should" has been thrown around.

[Major Bill Curtis]

Protecting your artillery park; supporting your scouts; upgrading the engine and scouting (going XL on the Cicada will do a lot; frankly the Centurion will be nasty with a new engine), are all good things to do with your medium.

Ambushing and sniping (rip out that AC/20 and put a Gauss Rifle in that Hunchback) are also quite good.

With the MechLab, the best Jenner you can make starts with a Centurion.

[Aldinvor]

Muddball, on 16 June 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

Is is a loaded word. But what i've seen rehashed over and over is alot of ideas and desires and wants. What I couldn't find is any real tech answer

alright, riddle me this:
Why would you choose a light over a medium, when you can make a medium do the same thing as a light but have better weapons and armour?
Why would you use a medium over a heavy, when you can blah blah?
Why choose a heavy over an assault when etc, etc?

Only the dev's know the answer, and they aint sayin'.

Major Bill Curtis, on 16 June 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

Protecting your artillery park; supporting your scouts; upgrading the engine and scouting (going XL on the Cicada will do a lot; frankly the Centurion will be nasty with a new engine), are all good things to do with your medium.

If I can have the D variant of the Centurion I'll be using it forever.

[Muddball]

Aldinvor, on 16 June 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

alright, riddle me this:
Why would you choose a light over a medium, when you can make a medium do the same thing as a light but have better weapons and armour?
Why would you use a medium over a heavy, when you can blah blah?
Why choose a heavy over an assault when etc, etc?

Because Lights can get to higher speeds with "cheaper" engines leaving more room for weapons. However, armor was always in the medium mech's favor.
There were very few reasons to choose a medium over a heavy, as the heavy could often match the speed, keep the same weapons and double the armor. Or drop the speed slightly, pack on armor and weapons.
Heavies and Assaults were very close together, so it became a little more of a personal preference in speed. I liked my turtles fat and slow, so in the end I often picked assaults but that was my choice in the matter.

[Major Bill Curtis]

Muddball, on 16 June 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Because Lights can get to higher speeds with "cheaper" engines leaving more room for weapons. However, armor was always in the medium mech's favor.
There were very few reasons to choose a medium over a heavy, as the heavy could often match the speed, keep the same weapons and double the armor. Or drop the speed slightly, pack on armor and weapons.
Heavies and Assaults were very close together, so it became a little more of a personal preference in speed. I liked my turtles fat and slow, so in the end I often picked assaults but that was my choice in the matter.

The point at which the lights start gaining advantage over mediums is only at very high rates of speed, however, where very few weapons will fit. With an XL engine and Endo-Steel, a 50-ton chassis will do 119 kph, and out-armor any light chassis, and still have more weight available for weapons. A properly-designed medium will be the thing lights hate the most.

[TavRaSel]

Quote

A properly-designed medium will be the thing lights hate the most.

Key words there, properly-designed. I agree with you that a well built medium can be nasty in several ways at once. But it can be hard to get that right mix before running over weight, under armored, too hot, etc. For those of us that like the 40-55 range, plan on extra time in the lab.

[Muddball]

Major Bill Curtis, on 16 June 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

The point at which the lights start gaining advantage over mediums is only at very high rates of speed, however, where very few weapons will fit. With an XL engine and Endo-Steel, a 50-ton chassis will do 119 kph, and out-armor any light chassis, and still have more weight available for weapons. A properly-designed medium will be the thing lights hate the most.

All of which is Level 2 star-league era tech. And i'm also really wondering if XL engines will make mechs as easy to destroy in game as they were in tabletop? I should go look that up.

[Shadowscythe]

TavRaSel, on 16 June 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

Key words there, properly-designed. I agree with you that a well built medium can be nasty in several ways at once. But it can be hard to get that right mix before running over weight, under armored, too hot, etc. For those of us that like the 40-55 range, plan on extra time in the lab.

This is actually a big point....I think one of my new tips will be for people to download a Battletech mech building program. and just play around with it....try to find something you like stat wise...min/max, balance.
So you can get an idea of what type of chassis you need hardpoint wise and whether that chassis will be able to do what you want RIGHT away, and also to find out what it can do with all the next tech tier (XL engine, endo steel, ferro armor and such, just watch your crit slot space lol and don't forget your heatsinks)...

There are programs on sarna..my favorite is Drawing Board...there are also a bunch of stock mechs made up for the program already which download seperately. would stick to mechs we KNOW are in the game though..
Don't want to build the mech you think is perfect for you then find out that the base varient isn't available lol

Edited by Shadowscythe, 16 June 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[Shadowscythe]

Muddball, on 16 June 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

And i'm also really wondering if XL engines will make mechs as easy to destroy in game as they were in tabletop? I should go look that up.

Edit. they did confirm in ask the devs 7 that taking out side torso with XL engine will core it

Although there are quite a few questions in the "ask the devs 7" list that have already been answered in dev Q&As....BTW, if anyone reading this hasn't read all the Dev Q&As, especially the ones that aren't "ask the devs", I would suggest reading those....LOTS of info there.

Edited by Shadowscythe, 18 June 2012 - 04:59 PM.

[Muddball]

Shadowscythe, on 16 June 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

I haven't been able to find a "confirmed" answer on that. in fact it is asked a couple times in the "ask the devs 7" question list (I am one of the people asking it lol)

XL engines look amazing on paper (pun intended) until you actually A) had to buy one and B] lost your last left torso armor bubble. And ya, i'm having some trouble finding that answer too.

Edited by Muddball, 16 June 2012 - 11:04 AM.

[Beazle]

Truth is, the Mediums they have in game atm really kinda are stepping stones. Except for the Cicada, which is a decent scout in it's own right.

Our other two Mediums are both "Bruisers" or "Line Mechs", depending on which term you prefer, a roll better filled by heavies.

Yes, i know they could be modified, but since info on just how all that works is limited, i'm sticking to discussing canon models and variants.%2

[Shadowscythe]

yep... In TT if I fun XL engines I always run with max armor (ok, maybe not always )

[Muddball]

Shadowscythe, on 16 June 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

yep... In TT if I fun XL engines I always run with max armor (ok, maybe not always )

Hardened armor. Game changer.

[Coughlin]

I always figured medium mechs would be a decent jack-of-all-trades, very reactionary type of mechs, making it so the best of the best, the most organized and the smartest would usually go down that route for the ability to do anything necessary at any given interval. Meaning they aren't really good at anything in particular, but decent at everything, so perhaps they would be more of a Lone Wolf mech type?

[TavRaSel]

gads i hated it when they threw in hardened / reactive / ablative armors.

[Shadowscythe]

Muddball, on 16 June 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

Hardened armor. Game changer.

Would be interesting to see if hardened armor is in game...I didn't care for it in BT TT that much because of the piloting skill, running penalty and a decent percentage of the people I played with LOVED LBX guns which makes hardened really bad against them. That and most weapons in the game do an odd number of damage

For those that don't know the rules for hardened armor (at least the last I knew them as) is that hardened armor provided 8 points of armor (normal armor is 16) per ton and those points take 2 points of damage to get rid of 1 point of armor (instead of 1/1 ratio)...and that is per location per hit....

So, if you get hit with an LBX which does 1 point of damage to many sections of armor (shotgun). it still does that 1 point of damage, per location hit...Basically hitting a hardened armor point that should take 2 damage..The 1 point damage doesn't "bounce off"

The plus sides are;
That it is harder to get a "penetrating critical" against you (which I don't think we even know if they are are in game or not)
You could put MORE tons of armor because the amount of armor points a mech can carry is limited based on its internal structure amount. Basically if you max out Haredened armor you can (somewhat) double the total damage you can absorb (but not always), but takes a LOT of tonnage

http://www.sarna.net.../Hardened_Armor
or you can just read this on hardened armor

Edited by Shadowscythe, 16 June 2012 - 11:35 AM.

[Helvetica]

Since the mechs can be stripped etc chassis are what you make them. If you really want to be a goon you could create that altas scout that will be near fortress like and a bit quicker than your average 100tonner.

medium chassis' are the most flexible mechs out there when it comes to creating 'the' specialist. You can create a glass cannon BGF, a heavy armoured scout, a jack of all trades support, The lineman brawler. They give you just enough to get creative yet keep it interesting, The more tonnage you add the more you feel you need to get in return from it and those returns are diminished one with higher tonnage. Mediums are where this game will be won and lost. They threaten everything. The bushwacker is the most underrated mech in the system IMO and Ofc my all time favoured mech Uziel (and yeah i know its not going into MWO .. )

[Barlourd]

I expect that the medium mechs will act like destroyers. Kill or chase off the light mechs while harrassing larger mechs. This is, of course, speculation but I would like a jack-of-all- trades mech. It would be fun to try out. Always liked the medium mechs in the PC games as well. Good balance of speed, firepower and manuverability.