95 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Randalf Yorgen, on 06 November 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

You do know that if you slow down slightly you will turn in a tighter circle, also if you are Twisted all the way over and turning in the same direction, pressing the C button and reversing your turn will snap you gun sights right onto the light on the other side before he has time to react to your manouver.

Also, only the bigger Mediums are built for front line use. the smaller ones are built to support the battle or kill the lights.


Signed a Jenner Pilot who does 400-600 damage on at least 2 drops a night with twin streaks and 3SL

Yes, slowing down to make a turn will allow you to turn sharper as you are being pelted by enemy fire, because the enemy behind you is still keeping up. Also, signing your post as a Light pilot who scores well does not really support the notion that Mediums are just fine as they are.. think about it.

[Fut]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 04 November 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

if you are in a med. and QQ you cant keep up with lights... play a light....

So the way to fix the balancing issue for mediums, is to abandon mediums completely?
Why'd you even bother posting?

Besides, you're completely missing the point. The thread is comparing the Mediums to Heavies, not the Mediums to Lights. Nobody here is complaining that Mediums are being out-maneuvered by the Lights.

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

This is worth quoting!

Quote

Among the most deadly weapons in the Clan arsenal, the Hellstar's four Ripper Series A1 Extended Range Particle Projector Cannons, one in each arm and torso, give it the potential to destroy or cripple anything less than another assault 'Mech with a single salvo. While lacking in secondary weapons, the massive volume of heat sinks ensures that barring combat damage theHellstar can fire its main weapons as fast as they can recharge.

Ok Now I want one!

It's funny, this thing in TT is a brutal terror-inducing Mech, but it's pretty much common place in MWO.
Goes to show that MWO is missing something important.

Edited by Fut, 06 November 2013 - 11:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Davers, on 06 November 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Tonnage limits alone will not help medium mechs if their role is better filled by lights and heavies. They need to have their 'own thing'.

A Medium's Thing is being good but not great at most rolls.

Fut, on 06 November 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

So the way to fix the balancing issue for mediums, is to abandon mediums completely?
Why'd you even bother posting?

Besides, you're completely missing the point. The thread is comparing the Mediums to Heavies, not the Mediums to Lights. Nobody here is complaining that Mediums are being out-maneuvered by the Lights.



It's funny, this thing in TT is a brutal terror-inducing Mech, but it's pretty much common place in MWO.
Goes to show that MWO is missing something important.

Whose afraid of it? I just like it. Its a whelp compared to my version of the Stone Rhino.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 November 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[RandomLurker]

Alright, let's break this all down and see what's up with mediums. This should allow us to target specific goals to specific mech attributes and get us some productive ideas.

Role:
Stuck between a light and a heavy, instead of being the generalists that lore describes them as, mediums are in fact much more focused. A medium mech needs to be able to go 90kph+, and deliver at least 30 point alpha (or corresponding DPS). As a generalization anyway; true results will vary by pilot.

The reason is that mediums lack the speed to **** that lights have, and the armor to soak hits that larger mechs have. Their only possible trade for these is mobility and firepower. A medium needs to be able to simultaneously move to a new position very quickly, and bring enough firepower to hurt when it gets there. If it can't do both these things, it should be a Light or Heavy isntead. This makes them ideal for supporting teammates, hit and run, flanking manuevers, and fast strike teams (wolf packs).

While mediums CAN do such things as brawl and long range snipe, they are outclassed by other chassis in every case except the fast striker described above. These roles should thus not be the focus of medium mech balancing.

Durability:
As mentioned by others, the 'best' medium at present is generally considered the Shaq. 2nd place varies heavily, but generally is either the Hunchback or Centurion. Why?

In the case of the Shaq, it's because it gets Hunchback like firepower with greater mobility- aka JJ. Alternately, it's able to sidestep the limitations of the medium class by being a pure sniper, which is actually the majority of it's use in my experience. That's hardly a glowing recommendation, since it's basically playing as a weak Jager with JJ.

The Centurion is known for it's durability, which comes from two features: the shield arm, and the torso mounted lasers. It's not ACTUALLY more durable then other mechs in terms of stats, but it's able to spread damage out very well while maintaining offensive power. This makes it's combat-effective lifespan rather long.

The Hunchback features incredible twist range and also good durability, but it gets it's resilience from a different source. Hunchies are small and compact and damage naturally spreads out due simply to their small size. If they were larger, like other mediums, they would be devastatingly weak because they're arms can't effectively block the torsos.

Firepower:
Most mediums rely on either massed, smaller weapons (old CN9-A, Hunchie P, Streaktaro) or a single large weapon with backups. This reflects both their weight limitations and the increased options from light mechs. Neither of these strategies is necessarily bad, but it's useful to be aware of them and why they exist.

While they can sometimes be in competition with lights for firepower (JR7-K), mediums get more tonnage to use instant impact weapons (PPC, Ballistics) or longer range weapons (LLasers, LRMs). This results in an increased ability to APPLY damage, even if the paper-sheet alpha and DPS don't make a huge leap over the Jenner.

Conclusions:
The number 1 balance factor is pilot skill - as fast strikers, situational awareness is deathly important. Medium mech's are not a good choice for novice pilots. This is not a bad thing since so many other options exist.

Mediums MUST have mobility. Speed, turn speed, twist range, and twist speed. This is essential for their combat role, and also the key to their durability. High agility makes it much easier to spread out damage. A high agility/speed ratio is essential for medium mechs. Articulated arms is also a plus, since you can maintain accurate aim while twisting rapidly for defense. More chassis need to be JJ capable as well, to give them a mobility edge over Heavies. Increased JJ height (a smidge closer to light mechs) is a possibilty as well.

Mediums need a variety of hardpoints in multiple locations. Because they rely on damage spreading for survival, a medium pilot should expect to get peeled away like a banana before they go down. Concentrating firepower into one location is debilitating (every hunchback pilot knows why). Also, they usually lack the tonnage for large weapons. Multiple energy hardpoints, multiple missile hardpoints with 4-10 tubes, and a scattering of ballistics hardpoints are what to look for.
-In addition, mediums would benefit immensely from mid-weight ballistics weapons. Currently, there is nothing in the tonnage range of SRMS and Energy weapons except for the AC2. Adding some new weapons- Light Gauss, Heavy Machine Guns, Standard (non-auto) Cannons, etc - would help balance these mechs. Damn the timeline, this is about gameplay balance.

Mediums need to be medium-sized. A look at the popular mediums reveals why. One is being used like a heavy (Shaq), one has good hitboxes to spread fire (Cent), and one is small (Hunchie). All other mediums tend to go down very quickly. A rescale on mech's like the Kintaro, Trebuchet, and Shaq is thus essential to balancing these chassis.

Edited by RandomLurker, 06 November 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[Davers]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

A Medium's Thing is being good but not great at most rolls.

But since all game modes are pretty much the same why not always take a specialist? It's not like we are gearing up for a base assault and end up getting sent on a recon patrol. There is no need to be a generalist- there is nothing general about the game modes we have now. There is only one real role- damage dealer. Why should I settle for good when I can be great?

Assault mechs have way too good torso twist. They should all be limited like the non-3F Stalkers. And multiple assault mech chassis can run almost at Hunchback speeds!
Heavy mechs have far too many hard points. (side note- the Jagermech has a better missile boat than an A1 Cat? How did this happen?)

I max out my Hunchback 4SP and I end up with a stock Jenner D, but slower and without JJ. Is this really the best the 4SP can do? Be worse than a stock light?

There should be a NEED for medium mechs. People should say 'We NEED at least a few mediums on the team' like they do with lights and assaults. It is not acceptable for a whole class of mechs to be mediocre.

[Khobai]

Here's my five suggestions for fixing mediums.

1) increase max speed for most mediums to at least 110kph (121kph with speed tweak)

2) give mediums improved hill climbing and an overall buff to agility.

3) give most mediums 3 module slots (mediums are supposed to be the most versatile weight class). Additionally some underused mediums like the Trebuchet should get ECM variants.

4) give lights/mediums different skills than heavies/assaults. For example, heavies/assaults could replace speed tweak with a different skill that gives +10% damage reduction to their center torsos instead. Getting rid of anchor turn and speed tweak on heavies/assaults in favor of tankier skills would help restore mobility to mediums.

5) fixing medium scaling is unlikely, but we all know its a huge problem. One possible tradeoff is to give the poorly scaled mediums some positive quirks instead (for example, the trebuchet could get a bonus to LRM lock-on time and tracking to help make up for the fact its as tall as an awesome). And then PGI simply has to be more careful in the future to size mediums properly.

Aside from those suggestions PGI needs to fix pinpoint convergence. Because I think its pretty obvious ghost heat was a huge failure. PPCs are still one of the most prolific weapons in the game despite all the nerfs. Allowing pinpoint damage is going to continue hurting mediums since theyre both easy to hit and lack the armor of heavies.

Edited by Khobai, 06 November 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[Davers]

Khobai, on 06 November 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Here's my six suggestions for fixing mediums.

1) increase max speed for most mediums to at least 110kph (121kph with speed tweak)

2) give mediums improved hill climbing and an overall buff to agility.

3) give most mediums 3 module slots (mediums are supposed to be the most versatile weight class)

4) give lights/mediums different skills than heavies/assaults. For example, heavies/assaults could replace speed tweak with a different skill that gives +10% damage reduction to their center torsos instead. Getting rid of anchor turn and speed tweak on heavies/assaults in favor of tankier skills would help restore mobility to mediums.

5) fixing medium scaling is unlikely, but we all know its a huge problem. One possible tradeoff is to give the poorly scaled mediums some positive quirks instead (for example, the trebuchet could get a bonus to LRM lock-on time and tracking to help make up for the fact its as tall as an awesome). And then PGI simply has to be more careful in the future to size mediums properly.

1. I am really not in favor of increasing engine sizes any more. It just takes away weapons and armor- it's just a trade off. I think mediums need a boost instead of an option to make more sacrifices. I'm ok with my mediums not going 120kph.

2. Yes. Better turn radius, better acceleration/deceleration, and better hill climbing ability.

3. This too. I had assumed at the start this was going to be the case. I wonder why they didn't do it.

4.Not sure about handing out damage reduction.

5. Very much things like this. It's pretty much what I thought 'mech quirks' were going to be.

[Khobai]

Quote

4.Not sure about handing out damage reduction.

I am.

Its quite frankly idiotic that assault mechs have to hide behind rocks and poptart because they cant take hits. While light mechs get to run around getting shot at by the entire enemy team and not die.

Its completely **** backwards from how it should be.

[Vodrin Thales]

Fut, on 06 November 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

It's funny, this thing in TT is a brutal terror-inducing Mech, but it's pretty much common place in MWO.
Goes to show that MWO is missing something important.

I think brutal terror inducing mech described the 4PPC stalker just fine prior to ghost heat.

[Davers]

Khobai, on 06 November 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

I am.

Its quite frankly idiotic that assault mechs have to hide behind rocks and poptart because they cant take hits. While light mechs get to run around getting shot at by the entire enemy team and not die.

Its completely **** backwards from how it should be.

I know what your intention is, but what it will become is that poptarting sniping will become even BETTER when they take reduced damage when they get damage reduction.

Vodrin Thales, on 06 November 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I think brutal terror inducing mech described the 4PPC stalker just fine prior to ghost heat.

Mechs that inspire 'brutal terror' are fine until they show up in every game (possibly in large numbers). Then they become unbalanced annoyances.

[Taemien]

Khobai, on 06 November 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

I am.

Its quite frankly idiotic that assault mechs have to hide behind rocks and poptart because they cant take hits. While light mechs get to run around getting shot at by the entire enemy team and not die.

Its completely **** backwards from how it should be.

Where is your source that Lights have damage reduction. As in an ACTUAL mechanic and not a hit detection bug.

You don't give a mechanic to other mechs simply because one class is bugged.


I find it ironic that this community makes quips and insults towards the devs in this game. But cannot tell the difference between a bug and a feature themselves.

So I'm going to await the source that this kid is using to explain why lights have coded in damage reduction. This is going to be either dull or entertaining. He's got it tough though. He's got to show it as a FEATURE and not a BUG.

[stjobe]

Khobai, on 06 November 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Here's my five suggestions for fixing mediums.

1) increase max speed for most mediums to at least 110kph (121kph with speed tweak)

No. Absolutely not. We want to boost mediums, not kill lights. If you want to adjust speeds, decrease the speed of heavies.

Khobai, on 06 November 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

2) give mediums improved hill climbing and an overall buff to agility.

3) give most mediums 3 module slots (mediums are supposed to be the most versatile weight class). Additionally some underused mediums like the Trebuchet should get ECM variants.

Yes and yes, good suggestions.

Khobai, on 06 November 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

4) give lights/mediums different skills than heavies/assaults. For example, heavies/assaults could replace speed tweak with a different skill that gives +10% damage reduction to their center torsos instead. Getting rid of anchor turn and speed tweak on heavies/assaults in favor of tankier skills would help restore mobility to mediums.

Hmm. Generally speaking I'm for it, but I do see Davers point about how it would affect poptarts.

Khobai, on 06 November 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Aside from those suggestions PGI needs to fix pinpoint convergence. Because I think its pretty obvious ghost heat was a huge failure. PPCs are still one of the most prolific weapons in the game despite all the nerfs. Allowing pinpoint damage is going to continue hurting mediums since theyre both easy to hit and lack the armor of heavies.

Allowing pinpoint damage is going to continue hurting everything. It is the single most important thing for PGI to come up with a good solution for - pinpoint accuracy and the heat system must be reworked if this game is ever going to be able to achieve some semblance of balance.

Edited by stjobe, 06 November 2013 - 03:42 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I know what your intention is, but what it will become is that poptarting sniping will become even BETTER when they take reduced damage when they get damage reduction.

Theyre also losing significant mobility though. The idea is for lights/mediums to be able to counter heavies/assaults at close range. If a light/medium can circle a heavy/assault faster than it can turn then theyre screwed unless they have their own lights/mediums to back them up.

Convergence is of course still a problem. PGI needs to fix it properly and they keep resisting what everyone is telling them needs to be done to fix their game. They need to come up with simple, permanent solution to convergence that doesnt introduce excessive RNG into the game and isnt ridiculously convoluted like ghost heat.

Quote

Allowing pinpoint damage is going to continue hurting everything. It is the single most important thing for PGI to come up with a good solution for - pinpoint accuracy and the heat system must be reworked if this game is ever going to be able to achieve some semblance of balance.

I completely agree. Unfortunately the game is built around convergence and PGI doesnt seem to want to change it. I dont see convergence going away anytime soon. But it's effectiveness can be limited in other ways like by making PPCs do splash damage. Like instead of doing 10 damage to a single location, it might do 7 damage to a single location, and 3 damage divided up amongst random adjacent locations. Autocannons could also fire twice as fast but do half as much damage per shot so their damage spreads out more (same principle as lasers, but autocannons would still hit way harder than lasers).

Edited by Khobai, 06 November 2013 - 07:30 PM.

[YueFei]

Khobai, on 06 November 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

Theyre also losing significant mobility though. The idea is for lights/mediums to be able to counter heavies/assaults at close range. If a light/medium can circle a heavy/assault faster than it can turn then theyre screwed unless they have their own lights/mediums to back them up.

That idea at first glance seems like it could work, but a singular Assault mech being circled by Lights or Mediums does *not* necessarily need his teammates to be other Lights or Mediums. *Other* Assault mechs could very well be the ones who cover his 6 o'clock. I have first-hand experience sneaking up to a Highlander and getting within minimum PPC range... only to get cored out by shots from another Highlander 150 meters away.

This is why making Mediums faster or more agile are not going to do the trick.

The key to making Lights and Mediums work is to make larger maps and make varied mission objectives. Sure my Hunchback is 8 kph faster than my comparably-equipped Cataphract (STD engine, AC20 + Medium Lasers...). That is not typically going to make much difference if I have to fight in a phone booth. Travelling 300 meters, my Hunchback arrives 1 second sooner than my Cataphract would. Sure, there may be cases where that 1 second makes a difference, but that will be rare, given how slow and ponderous the pacing of this game is.

Change that to 3000 meters, and my Hunchback would arrive 12 seconds before my Cataphract could. Enough to fire 3 volleys. And maybe that makes more of a difference than having more armor, more heatsinks, and jump jets.

[Destoroyah]

I think the main problem with mediums is that most do need to be rescaled they are way to big for their tonnage compared to the heavier mechs. Rescaling will probaly not ahppen for a number of reasons or not for a very long time.

The other main problem is their agility and this tranlates to other mech categories as well. Problem is tweaking twist or arm radiuses isn't the problem as its the mechs actual turning is way to slow and in the case of the larger mechs is to fest in some cases. Trying to get a medium mech into enemy blindspots on larger mechs is damn hard as it's farely easy for most of them to keep you in weapon sights. Most mediums aren't supposed to be fast and increasing speeds just turns them into secondcase lights which defeats their intended purpose.
Most mediums are supposed to be versatile and flexible while not carrying the same level of firepower of a heavy they tend to be a bit faster and more agile so they can get into larger mechs weakpoints and exploit them. Yet they don't have the speed or size of lights but tend to carry more firepower then them. Most of the above is true except for the agility aspect which in my opinion needs to be reevaluated across the board of all mechs.
Torso twist speed and angles are only part of the equation. I think they need to decouple turning and torso twist speeds from engine size and instead make turning a set value.

[Thorqemada]

Imho everything in this game is to agile and fast - Speed should come at the Expense of Maneuverability (you can turn tight or go fast but MWO makes possible both at the same time).
Well, i have adapted to it.

But its still hard to stomach when your SHD runs at 97kph frontal toward an Atlas, fires what you have, jump over it, turn 180° in the Air to fire in its back and the Atlas is facing you already again.

Thing is that the mobility gap to the heavier weightclasses is still minimal while it is huge to Lights.

Edited by Thorqemada, 07 November 2013 - 05:29 AM.