284 replies to this topic

[Mao of DC]

Hillslam, on 05 November 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Something I don't understand regarding the battle between the clans and the Com Star Guards at the battle of Tukayyid.

We know that the commander of the ComStar forces, Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht, was actually Frederick Steiner, an experienced and hardened battle commander who served thru many actual combat engagements.

We know that the pilots of the ComGuards were using Star League era technology. Effectively nearly negating the Clan Technology advantage.

What I don't understand is where these armies and armies of ComGuard pilots came from. Where did they get their EXPERIENCE from? Wargaming over and over on Terra???

I just don't understand how you take on battle tested gen-engineered warriors with years of experience in REAL combat with a group of untested(?) personnel piloting hidden(?) machinery that had not been used in anger in centuries. Nothing can replace true battlefield experience, no matter how good the training, simulation, or wargaming - and we know that combat expertise atrophies rapidly... so what gives?

Did they secretly draw in warriors from the inner sphere? If so how in the world was this giant secret military force kept a secret???

Someone please school me on what happened in the lore. Who were these ComGuard pilots and where did they get their combat expertise honed enough to take on Clan Mechwarriors and win?

Because I don't get it. Sure, Superior Strategy? Check. Superior Preparation? Check. Superior Numbers? check. But at some point your troops are going to have to pull triggers against their troops.

Ok short answer most ComGuards units were green as fresh cut trees. Better Tactics won the day also the Clan didnt support each other. Where as the Comstar forces not currently engaged would shift to support unit that were. It also was a "best of" type of battle. If one side won x number of battles they win the whole thing.

http://www.sarna.net...tle_of_Tukayyid this link has the full description of the battle who won which part and why.

[Oshay]

I realize I'm getting into this thread rather late, but I think I can give everyone a definitive answer, at least as to where ComStar got their 'Mechs and parts to keep them running from.

Here's an excerpt from the ComStar Sourcebook, dated around the time of Kerensky's Exodus, and Operation Silver Shield, June 25, 2788.

Page 13

Quote

ComStar had at its disposal eight full divisions, half of them 'Mech Equipped, and an assortment of smaller units, but more than enough BattleMechs and other vehicles in storage to support a much larger military.

Page 14

Quote

Within 5 days of the completion of Silver Shield ComStar DropShips descended on New Earth, The Former Headquarters of the SLDF. For the next eight days they stripped the facility of every shred of equipment and military hardware, carefully loading up the goods. Everything was transported to Terra and meticulously mothballed, with great pains taken to conceal the vast amount of military hardware recovered. In Blake's own words to the First Circuit, these 'Mechs represented "An Insurance Policy" against interference by the warring Great Houses.

ComStar always had military hardware aplenty. They had Terra, which even after being all but levelled in the Amaris Civil War, was still the most heavily industrialized world in the Universe. By seizing SLDF HQ and looting it, they took the simulators, the tactical manuals of the SLDF, the training syllabus, the memory cores... everything they needed to build an army. They simply never got around to doing it until the threat of the FedCom after the 4th Succession War led them to fear they'd lose by hook before they could conquer by crook. And all those lovely troops were trained by Myndo Waterly just in time for the Clans to arrive...

Edited by Oshay, 11 November 2013 - 07:53 PM.

[pbiggz]

Then Myndo tried to hand the inner sphere over to the clans before getting shot in the back by Anistasius Focht. That sent Demona Aziz and her yahoo followers into the free worlds league where they gathered their strength and came back soon after to conquer terra as the word of blake.

The reason the comguards did not continue to be game changers in the inner sphere is because they lost most of their power when the word took over terra. They were also nearly completely destroyed by the word of blake shortly after the Jihad began.

Edited by pbiggz, 11 November 2013 - 07:58 PM.

[Oshay]

No argument there... bear in mind that after the absolutely appalling losses that the ComGuard suffered at Tukayyid, Focht ordered most of the factories on Terra reopened. These are the factories that the Word managed to take lock, stock, and barrel intact in 3058. These factories on Terra along with the Free World League's money are what allowed the Word of Blake to grow from a small segment of nutjobs to a giant galaxy-spanning conspiracy in less than ten years. The point is that, he who holds Terra holds all the shiny toys for making revolution/stopping Space Mongol Hordes. A lot of people who play Battletech, even Tabletoppers, don't seem to realize that Terra by itself is equivalent to like 10 Hesperus 2's. It's that industrialized.

Edited by Oshay, 11 November 2013 - 08:18 PM.

[Sug]

Marack Drock, on 11 November 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

I was talking to u about your fear that there are to many people. You can fit everyone in the world in Texas. This means that there is room for another couple trillion people.

I assume you're joking but that's the stupidest thing I've heard in a while.

[Rovertoo]

Sug, on 11 November 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

I assume you're joking but that's the stupidest thing I've heard in a while.

I can vouch for him, it's completely true. Overpopulation isn't a problem. There is some debate about resource management, however, but history has shown that our good friends in industry pull through with technology every time.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 November 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

The Word of Blake Jihad. Once that was won the Republic of the Spheres din't have anything to do for 20-40 years???

Who said the Word of Blake lost the war?

All I read is Pro Vici propaganda.
All the ruling houses - don't deserve to rule - line them up and remove them from the genetic pool of humanity. They have betrayed soldiers in history and they betrayed soldiers in battletech lore:

Operation Götterdämmerung - worlds conquered in blood - made a present 6 years later
The 2nd Star League - all rulers were corrupted - Sun Tzu, Theodore ... all of them abuse the power.

For what? the soldiers of Snake and Bulldog died in vain - because those terrible persons disolved the 2nd Star League reminds me at the phrase from Schiller: The Moor has done his duty, the Moor can go.

The atrocitys of the Jihad were evil - but when you allow Vici the right to start a civil war, or his father to invade a sovereign state, or his grand mom to ursup the throne...than the actions of Word of Blake were right:
The choice between 2 evils: the ruling families and the clans vs quadrillions of dead

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 11 November 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

Who said the Word of Blake lost the war?

All I read is Pro Vici propaganda.
All the ruling houses - don't deserve to rule - line them up and remove them from the genetic pool of humanity. They have betrayed soldiers in history and they betrayed soldiers in battletech lore:

Operation Götterdämmerung - worlds conquered in blood - made a present 6 years later
The 2nd Star League - all rulers were corrupted - Sun Tzu, Theodore ... all of them abuse the power.

For what? the soldiers of Snake and Bulldog died in vain - because those terrible persons disolved the 2nd Star League reminds me at the phrase from Schiller: The Moor has done his duty, the Moor can go.

The atrocitys of the Jihad were evil - but when you allow Vici the right to start a civil war, or his father to invade a sovereign state, or his grand mom to ursup the throne...than the actions of Word of Blake were right:
The choice between 2 evils: the ruling families and the clans vs quadrillions of dead

You sound like you missed how often each of the Lords did the same, Vic, Kai and Hohiro were three leaders I would have followed.

As far as my reading and such goes, My Unit (BattleCorps Legion) was On Earth at the end of the Word's power play. We were working with Duchess Alys and the AMC.

[dal10]

honestly, liao or not, you guys have to admit that Sun-Tzu was arguably the greatest of the successor lords. a coward he may be, but he took a realm that was on the brink of destruction and turned it into one of the strongest, if not the strongest of the successor states.

also the unit i play as in all of the campaigns i participated in is on shiloh at the end of the jihad. they helped liberate the planet and stayed behind find their families, cause they were part of the garrison for that planet.

not sure why that is relevant, i just felt like it was.

Edited by dal10, 12 November 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

dal10, on 12 November 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

honestly, liao or not, you guys have to admit that Sun-Tzu was arguably the greatest of the successor lords. a coward he may be, but he took a realm that was on the brink of destruction and turned it into one of the strongest, if not the strongest of the successor states.

also the unit i play as in all of the campaigns i participated in is on shiloh at the end of the jihad. they helped liberate the planet and stayed behind find their families, cause they were part of the garrison for that planet.

not sure why that is relevant, i just felt like it was.

The only reason it has shored up is cause there was a real threat on the boarder for the Fed Sun to worry about. Sun Tzu is a crafty Politician but a war leader he is not.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 12 November 2013 - 08:34 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 November 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Sun Tzu is a crafty Politician but a war leader he is not.

+1,000,000

[pbiggz]

I would say that Ulric Kerensky is arguably the most brilliant politician and leader the inner sphere ever saw. Think about it. The clans vote to invade and the wolves try to stop them. When they fail on the field of battle, the jaguars force the wolves to take part in the very invasion they opposed.

Instead of accepting defeat and humiliation, ulric decides the best way to stop the crusaders is to outdo them. Not only does he use the military might and wisdom of his clan to outdo the other crusaders, he carefully crafts a plan that would never fail, even if he was killed. He carefully plans the battle of tukayyid, knowing that the crusaders would underbid and be destroyed by the green but well-trained comguard. And then in his most brilliant move, he simultaneously cleanses the crusaders from the wolf clan, as-well as nearly completely destroying clan jade falcon, the greatest of the crusaders. In the end the Wolves in Exile are legitimately capable of openly defending the inner sphere, and the falcons are crippled to a point that there is little they can do when the inner sphere is finally ready to launch it's staggering counter-attack. Ulric hamstrung the crusaders and then distracted them until it was too late.

And the best part of his plan is, if the comguards were defeated at tukayyid and the invasion continued, the wolves at their pace would have reached terra long before the crusaders got anywhere near the hegemony. They would be IlClan, successors to the Star League of old, and they alone would have the authority to order the invasion to halt. His plan literally could not fail.

[CyclonerM]

Totally agreed!
But it is still a point of view question - Crusaders may see him as a traitor.. While he was just smarter than them

[pbiggz]

CyclonerM, on 12 November 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Totally agreed!
But it is still a point of view question - Crusaders may see him as a traitor.. While he was just smarter than them

I'm not talking about whether you like him or not (though I am a warden and I do like him), I'm simply stating that he was a brilliant tactician and shrewd politician who knew exactly what he needed to do to get what he wanted. I hate Sun Tzu, but I would not argue against the fact that he was a brilliant politician as well, as it would take nothing short of a genius to turn the stump of the Capellan Confederation into one of the most powerful Successor States in the Inner Sphere again.

Even Stefan Amaris, the Usurper, was a brilliant politician. He played his hand masterfully and brought the Star League to its knees. What he did after (digging in when obviously the SLDF had superior technology and numbers) is the part of his plan I consider less than brilliant.

The one drawback of having a capital on Terra is that you are literally surrounded by opposing powers. You have nowhere to run if things go south.

Edited by pbiggz, 12 November 2013 - 10:35 AM.

[dal10]

What if one of the crusader clans decided to be ****** abd jump a fleet through uninhabited systems to strike directly at tera?

[pbiggz]

To my understanding, you can only jump so far before you have to park yourself and spend a few weeks recharging your jump drives using solar sails, which means you need to come out of jump at least somewhat near a star, and there are few if any uninhabited systems, especially in the heavily industrialized worlds formerly held by the Terran Hegemony. Someone would have seen it...

Also its worth noting that once again, even the crusaders are bound to a certain code of honour which prevents underhanded actions like this, especially on the scale of entire clans. The smoke jaguar for example would find it very difficult to legitimize their conquest of terra through trickery, and they might have ended up facing the might of all the other clans combined for their dishonourable conduct. You have to remember that operation revival was, at its core, a clan-wide trial of possession for Terra.

[Joseph Mallan]

dal10, on 12 November 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

What if one of the crusader clans decided to be ****** abd jump a fleet through uninhabited systems to strike directly at tera?

They would have to deal with Clan law and probably be labeled Dezgra and probably Annihilated.
by pbiggz

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 12 November 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[dal10]

pbiggz, on 12 November 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

To my understanding, you can only jump so far before you have to park yourself and spend a few weeks recharging your jump drives using solar sails, which means you need to come out of jump at least somewhat near a star, and there are few if any uninhabited systems, especially in the heavily industrialized worlds formerly held by the Terran Hegemony. Someone would have seen it...

Also its worth noting that once again, even the crusaders are bound to a certain code of honour which prevents underhanded actions like this, especially on the scale of entire clans. The smoke jaguar for example would find it very difficult to legitimize their conquest of terra through trickery, and they might have ended up facing the might of all the other clans combined for their dishonourable conduct. You have to remember that operation revival was, at its core, a clan-wide trial of possession for Terra.

if a star just has a couple gas giants around it and no real resources to speak of, who would station ships there to watch the hundreds of stars like that? there are large number of stars throughout the inner sphere that have no human presence, by lore these stars outnumber the inhabited stars by a fairly large margin.

Joseph Mallan, on 12 November 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

They would have to deal with Clan law and probably be labeled Dezgra and probably Annihilated.
by pbiggz

Not sure what honor code they would have violated. they legitimately beat every other clan to terra. i don't remember there being any rule saying they had to conquer every planet on the way. they would simply be doing what the clans did when they bypassed some planets to conquer later. they just bypassed a lot more planets while aiming for the biggest fight they could find.

[Jonathan Paine]

Taken from Sarna, so grain of salt and all that, but here is an indicator that the ComGuards did in fact have combat experience:

"Under the leadership of Precentor Martial Victor Steiner-Davion, the Com Guards began to take a much more active role across the Inner Sphere. Com Guard units were deployed on trouble worlds and throughout the St. Ives Compact during the latter's war with the Capellan Confederation, alongside other Star League peacekeepers, including the Eridani Light Horse. At least one Com Guard unit served in Prince Victor's armies during the FedCom Civil War, while others fought against him."

[dal10]

all that was after tukayyid.