284 replies to this topic

[dal10]

ManaValkyrie, on 14 November 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

A bulkhead is not armoury, on a naval vessel, a bulkhead is an internal dividing wall that seperates various compartments to maintain integrity within a vessel should collision, flooding, fire.etc occur. In a naval vessel (especially military) Bulkheads compartmentalize ships heavily. This prevents rapid spread of bad conditions. A ship at battlestations will be closed down to full integrity, i.e. every bulkhead opening will be closed and fully sealed.

The likelyhood that a compartment or two is lost would possibly be high, but the whole ship, unless the fighter actually rammed an armoury or the ships reactor, which are usually some of the most heavily armoured and compartmentalized sections, its doubtful that a small ship would take out a much larger ship with collision. Besides most weapons/warheads aren't physically armed until they fire or have been fired and most ordanance is actually pretty hard to set off accidently in modern settings.

The explosives are usually of a type that won't detonate or explode due to fire/heat but require a specific trigger mechanism/chain to actually detonate.

just saying that a bulkhead is probably behind the armor. if a fighter can pierce the armor, i think the attacks could work.

on a side note, does anyone actually know what damage nukes do in BT?

plus, even if one fighter barely pierces the armor, imagine what 2 in the same spot could do?

[Karl Streiger]

dal10, on 14 November 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

on a side note, does anyone actually know what damage nukes do in BT?

Thats my part -
Available in 4 sizes

Davy Crocket M 0.5KT- mount on Arrow IV systems - > CBT Ground Zero Damage 100 (Capital 1 11+)
Alamo 5KT - aerospace version - need 10 mountings -> CBT Ground Zero Damage 1.000 (Capital 10 10+)
Santa Anna 50 KT - mount in a Killer Whale -> CBT Ground Zero Damage 10.000 (Captial 100 9+)
Peacemaker 500 KT - mount in a Kraken T -> CBT Ground Zero Damage 100.000 (Capital 1000 8+)

As you see they are not that terrifying in space as they are in atmosphere -> shockwave and heat only on contact and the radiation is simple ignored by the hulls of space ships
So nukes have to hit the ship and maybe penetrate armor (but if they do they cause havoc there damage is mulitpled by factor 10 and attacs directli the SI of that ship -> Alamo will kill anything with a lesser SI as 100)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 November 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[dal10]

and yeah, guarantee you comstar will empty its stockpiles, which they almost certainly have, to protect terra. i highly doubt that even if the clans had nukes that they would bring them to the inner sphere.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Xelchon, on 14 November 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

No, Ulric did not warn them about the long-term ammo and supply need. In many fronts that was why the other clans came to stop their advance. He wanted them to lose and that's a given.

On the second case; I would like to see the exact quote.
IF he had the right, he did not exercise it and that is as foul as sending his own men to die... but again, Ulric was not the paragon of virtue that Stackpole showed him to be. No offense, Stackpole, I love your writing, but you love your wolves too much
One thing is true is that on the specific battlefield of Tukayyid which is the topic; all clans were by themselves. After they did the bidding of forces; each clan, on their own, went by their own method to achieve their objective by whatever means.

Tukayyid Scenario Pack Pg.7 - Case One

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 14 November 2013 - 06:40 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

dal10, on 14 November 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

and yeah, guarantee you comstar will empty its stockpiles, which they almost certainly have, to protect terra. i highly doubt that even if the clans had nukes that they would bring them to the inner sphere.

Depending on where that stockpile is. The majority of those Nukes are in the, "did we just hit a trash can?" level.

[dal10]

you are still probably looking at thousands of alamos and hundreds of santa anas. and considering very few star league era ships even have AA weapons, all you really have to worry about is the fighter screens.

[Karl Streiger]

dal10, on 14 November 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

and yeah, guarantee you comstar will empty its stockpiles, which they almost certainly have, to protect terra. i highly doubt that even if the clans had nukes that they would bring them to the inner sphere.

Regarding JHS 3070 yes ComStar has a good part of nukes.
What I have to ask my self
Those persons, that pressed the trigger - to use Nukes vs population centers on planet (like St.Lois,Houston or Riga) - or at least did order to do it, are they allready somewhere in the ranks of ComStar and are there the same fanatical followers in ComStar that are 3068 in the ranks of Word Of Blake.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 November 2013 - 06:49 AM.

[dal10]

probably yes, and they would also use them to hit the warships in orbit.

[Jakob Knight]

dal10, on 14 November 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

probably yes, and they would also use them to hit the warships in orbit.

It should be noted that the use of nuclear arms in space was a grey area in the Conventions. Technically, they were permitted against military targets (I believe, but admit I may be wrong), but the fact that said targets were usually either able to dodge out of strike distance or were jumpships, it was generally considered against every known doctrine to actually employ them since it either wasted a valuable weapon or destroyed the very thing the Successor States wanted to preserve with the Conventions. Use of nuclear weapons against civilian space traffic and stations were still violations of the Conventions.

The Clans, of course, didn't have these restrictions, but the waste incurred by nuclear weapon use along with the inevitable charges of cowardice that would follow amounted to about the same thing in regards to the Clan Way.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 14 November 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

dal10, on 14 November 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

you are still probably looking at thousands of alamos and hundreds of santa anas. and considering very few star league era ships even have AA weapons, all you really have to worry about is the fighter screens.

And surviving long enough to launch the ordinance.

dal10, on 14 November 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

probably yes, and they would also use them to hit the warships in orbit.

That doesn't sound like the way The Precentor-Marshal approached warfare.

[pbiggz]

Marack Drock, on 14 November 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

Here I can end this. THERE WAS NO POINT TO ANY WAR IN BATTLETECH. ITS A WAR GAME HENS THE NAME BATTLETECH.

Why are you still here!? You are not contributing in any constructive way with your babble! And why would you WANT to end this discussion? It's one of the few good discussions on these forums!

[dal10]

you let the clans get to terra and i think the primus would override him on this one. comstar is full of fanatics at this point.

alamo's are fighter based. you launch 70-80 fighters equipped with them plus a hefty CAP screen and quite a few will get through.

odds are you will kill at least one warship before the clans realize what they are up to.

Edited by dal10, 14 November 2013 - 08:28 AM.

[dal10]

I think this is more of a whaf if thread than anything now.

[Lazor Sharp]

Marack,

Having not read the novels, I have enjoyed this Topic and learned a lot about the
BT history, and what other PPL have to think about this topic,,,,

So just LEAVE This topic and go else where, and let others here enjoy it as they see fit.........

Edited by Lazor Sharp, 14 November 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[dal10]

Well said.

[LoPanShui]

QQ

[dal10]

so back to warships, I can see structural integrity on sarna, but is their any additional damage that must be done on top of that?

[pbiggz]

I would imagine the warship's engines, namely its KF jump drive would be weak points. Knock out its jump capabilities and it cannot escape, knock out its engines (sub-light) and its dead in the water.

[Karl Streiger]

dal10, on 14 November 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

so back to warships, I can see structural integrity on sarna, but is their any additional damage that must be done on top of that?

Hm- back in FASA times with BattleSpace rules you had a kind of critical hit systems - were all systems got there place on a map sheet. Based on the angle of attack and the damage you dealt those damage hit peripheral systems first (weapon bays), quarters etc. and with additional damage the chance was increased to hit vital systems.

Currently its more streamlined. You fire a weapon at an Aerospace target...is your damage bigger as 10% of the initial armor value? If you can cause a critical hit.
Some weapons have that capability on their own (like those inferiour Warship missiles at first glance)
So basically although only hardly 12-15% of armor are reduced on a Dropship when hit by such a missile you can create two critical hits:
You can take a look at those Recorsheets: you can see what systems could be knocked out:
http://www.sarna.net...f/warshiprs.pdf
http://www.sarna.net.../dropshiprs.pdf

ah Sarna has some examples for the more detailed BattleSpace versions
http://www.sarna.net...ts/pdf/bslw.pdf
as said you start at the upper side and dig your self into the vital systems.


Of course when SI is zero the war ship is dead.

Although there are some interesting additions with Strategic Operations: for example when a NAC40 hit a Drop or JumpShip it could happen that there is a kind of over penetrating - passing through the ship without dealing vital damage (could hit quarters, water and food storrage etc - and missing vital systems)

[Tyrnea Smurf]

Jaroth Corbett, on 13 November 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

No the question is, had Operation Revival been prosecuted the same way as Operation Klondike, how decimated would the IS have been?

If ALL the Clans had attacked ALL the Successor States, the end result would have been quite different. If the CC was fighting off Clans themselves & the FWL had no freedom to supply the DC or FC with mechs, modular kits & general supplies, history would be quite different. Let us not forget that the SS got their ***** handed to them & the only pauses they got were from extremely rare victories & a fluke encounter that killed the ilKhan.

Sure, however it would not be unreasonable to assume that the simple reason they did not employ that stratagem is they did not have the logistical assets to deploy in that manor nor at that level.

The clans are shipping military resources, material and personel from the Clan homeworlds to the Inner Sphere over a distance and number of jumps greater than getting across the entirety of the Inner Sphere itself. Now consider not only doing that, but expanding that to not only include all 17 clans (I suspect you could argue under the lore that the clan were at their logistical limits bringing the 4 original invading Clans, and they only began adding to that number with the Nova cats and Steel Vipers - who had to share invasion corridors' and supply lines, in fact in the lore we know that the Nova Cats and Smoke Jaguars fought trials over possessions of some of those transit bases/starpaths. don't recall if it was ever mentioned with the Jade falcon and Steel Viper, but I would bet they had fights over their supply lines as well - once the main heavy lift/transport of the first 4 was done, only then could the Grand council consider sending additional clans into the inner Sphere. But also consider you have to take the long way abound to get underneath and behind Houses Laio and Marik. The star charts alone tell you your doubling to tripling your already incredibley long travel distances employing that movement on your armies. If we are going to write up 'Clan Invasion strategies for Dummies' chapter 1 really should focus on going straight out directly through the Draconis Combine (ignoring the 2 halves of the Federated Commonwealth until your expansion forces a massive push against both halves at once) thus taking out one of the 5 houses before any of the others really can do anything about it. But then again it would become a boring game to play wouldn't?...



Era Report 3052

Yeah they had to come up with something to explain the massive logistal hole in the Clan Invasion as presented. In the 3020'd the Federated Suns not only proved to be good at moving long distances quickly (Hanse is credited with the creation of the Command Circuit of Jumpships) But also masters of large scale movement warfare (He attacked the Capellan Confederation with 40 RCT's (which I showed earlier would be nearly as large a force as Comstar would use at Tukayyid) Now suddenly the Feds are all thumbs and can't move their massive military might.

Quote

This is from the meeting on Outreach during the YoP, after the ilKhan got killed.





Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Book 2 - Blood Legacy

Right at that is in 3051, my post was about if Comstar had decided to use the Successor States as proxys over a year later.

its been over 7 years since I read the Stackpole novels but I distinctly remember both Theodore Kurita and Hanse Davion readjusting their military deployments to reflect a non binding gentlemens agreement not to fight one another while the Clans were a threat and they both moved almost their entire mutual armies that had been arrayed against each other to their respective Clan fronts.

The key to knowing how a alternative summer of 3052 with a massive Federated Commonwealth counter offensive would have worked or not is knowing the following detail:

How big were the Jade Falcon, Steel Viper, and Wolf Clan invasion armies in the summer of 3052.

We know from the novels that the Federated Commonwealth both possessed the military might and logistical capabilities to have anywhere from 100 to 150 RCT's in position to fight the clans by the end of summer of 3052 at the latest.