124 replies to this topic

[Vodrin Thales]

Amsro, on 06 November 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

Ghost never did anything, and is still doing nothing.

Everyone is crying about AC weapons being OP, that is because Ghost Heat nerfed energy builds (SRM'***** Detection doesn't help)

PPC and ERPPC are hot enough for this to be a non-issue anymore. At the very least remove it on the test server and let us retry it.

Ghost heat is ridiculous and is still mostly misunderstood. Further proving its overcomplicatednessosity.

Remove ghost heat and you will see at least two 4 PPC builds being played regularly by me the next day. Trust me, the QQ from that would drown out any of the previous QQ form ghost heat as players like you ran back to the forums to ask for it back. And I am hardly the best marksman I have seen in this game.

[FupDup]

RetroActive, on 06 November 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Ghost heat is NOT an anti-boating mechanic. It is an anti-alpha mechanic. You people can still run your 4 PPC Stalkers...just fire 2 PPCs, wait 0.5 seconds and fire two more. I'm not sure why everyone thinks ghost heat is an anti-boating thing. Most people who think that probably just listen to the whiners on the forum and don't understand that staggering fire does not trigger ghost heat.

If it's an anti-alpha mechanic, explain why do most mixed builds (excluding LPL + LL) get to fire everything in a single mouse click with no penalty? Is firing 2 AC/5 and 2 PPCs simultaneously not an alpha strike or something?

I think the issue here is that there are some misconceptions when it comes to defining "alpha strike." An alpha strike simply means to fire all of your mech's weapons at the same time. It doesn't matter what those weapons are. They don't all have to be the same type. For instance, the new FoTM combo of 2 PPCs + 2 AC/5 is in fact an alpha strike, and doesn't get ghost heated one bit. Or how about 2 LL and a bank of 5 ML? No penalty either, even though 3 LL or 7 ML do get a penalty despite having inferior damage output. Care to explain why 3 LRM10 gets penalized, but 2 LRM20 does not? Or 5 SRM2 verus 3 SRM6?

Looks like you only get penalized for alpha'ing IF you stack "too many" of a specific weapon type, NOT for alpha striking in general.

Edited by FupDup, 06 November 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

it wasn't the 55 point Alpha as much as it was the 55 pin point damage.

On TT a Thunder Hawk has a 65 point Alpha against half as much armor, it is a scary build, but I haven't read a single post that it should be removed or nerfed since its inclusion!

Nobody complains about my 54-67 point Alphas. Because I have mixed weapons and not everything is hitting one pixel.

You are absolutely correct, but the only thing capping pinpoint alphas at 40 right now, and long ranged pinpoint alphas at 30 is ghost heat. If we remove it without some other mechanism to limit pinpoint damage, time to death will drop significantly again and I do not think that would be good for the games long term health. Nothing turns off new players like feeling they don't have a chance in a fight. I don't think ghost heat is really the best possible solution for the problem, but it has worked to an extent.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vodrin Thales, on 06 November 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

You are absolutely correct, but the only thing capping pinpoint alphas at 40 right now, and long ranged pinpoint alphas at 30 is ghost heat. If we remove it without some other mechanism to limit pinpoint damage, time to death will drop significantly again and I do not think that would be good for the games long term health. Nothing turns off new players like feeling they don't have a chance in a fight. I don't think ghost heat is really the best possible solution for the problem, but it has worked to an extent.

2 PPCs an a Gauss (timed correctly) Still throws a 35 point long range Alpha.

[RetroActive]

FupDup, on 06 November 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

If it's an anti-alpha mechanic, explain why do most mixed builds (excluding LPL + LL) get to fire everything in a single mouse click with no penalty? Is firing 2 AC/5 and 2 PPCs simultaneously not an alpha strike or something?

I think the issue here is that there are some misconceptions when it comes to defining "alpha strike." An alpha strike simply means to fire all of your mech's weapons at the same time. It doesn't matter what those weapons are. They don't all have to be the same type. For instance, the new FoTM combo of 2 PPCs + 2 AC/5 is in fact an alpha strike, and doesn't get ghost heated one bit. Or how about 2 LL and a bank of 5 ML? No penalty either, even though 3 LL or 7 ML do get a penalty despite having inferior damage output. Care to explain why 3 LRM10 gets penalized, but 2 LRM20 does not? Or 5 SRM2 verus 3 SRM6?

Looks like you only get penalized for alpha'ing IF you stack "too many" of a specific weapon type, NOT for alpha striking in general.

You are correct, but you're basically ignoring the general point of my post. It's still not an anti-boating mechanic like many people here seem to believe. Stagger fire overcomes ghost heat. So what if it causes more damage spread. That's what you anti-convergence nuts want, right? Mixed alphas also cause more damage spread due to different travel times. Once again, the nuts should be pleased.

[FupDup]

RetroActive, on 06 November 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

You are correct, but you're basically ignoring the general point of my post. It's still not an anti-boating mechanic like many people here seem to believe. Stagger fire overcomes ghost heat. So what if it causes more damage spread. That's what you anti-convergence nuts want, right? Mixed alphas also cause more damage spread due to different travel times. Once again, the nuts should be pleased.

There are several ways to reduce/minimize spread for mixed alphas:

A. Using any combination of hitscan weapons (excluding LPL + LL combos because they get a penalty). These weapons all hit the target instantly.

B. Firing at close range

C. Using weapons of similar projectile speed (this mostly just applies to the FoTM PPC + AC/5 combo, because they're only 200 m/s apart)

D. Firing at large targets (more likely to hit them for obvious reasons)

E. Firing at slow-moving/immobile targets (mostly applies to larger enemies who accelerate slowly, see point D)

F. If the target is moving in a straight line towards you

G. SSRMs and LRMs are effectively "auto-aim," meaning that they don't need to be aimed seperately from other weapons (yes, the missiles spread out naturally, but that affects chain-firers equally or worse as it does alpha strikers).

Edited by FupDup, 06 November 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

2 PPCs an a Gauss (timed correctly) Still throws a 35 point long range Alpha.

True, but you almost never see this combo any more (except on my Heavy Metal I guess) due to the charge mechanic on the gauss making the weapons tough to time. The only common ranged pinpoint alpha you see now is 2AC5(or UAC5) with 2 PPC's, and that is a 30 alpha. Gauss + 2PPC is as rare as hens teeth now.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vodrin Thales, on 06 November 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

True, but you almost never see this combo any more (except on my Heavy Metal I guess) due to the charge mechanic on the gauss making the weapons tough to time. The only common ranged pinpoint alpha you see now is 2AC5(or UAC5) with 2 PPC's, and that is a 30 alpha. Gauss + 2PPC is as rare as hens teeth now.

I have 2 PPC and an AC10 on my D-DC. 30 Point Alpha also. Not a lot of damage. feels like a TT Gauss to me.

[RetroActive]

FupDup, on 06 November 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

There are several ways to reduce/minimize spread for mixed alphas:

A. Using any combination of hitscan weapons (excluding LPL + LL combos because they get a penalty). These weapons all hit the target instantly.

B. Firing at close range

C. Using weapons of similar projectile speed (this mostly just applies to the FoTM PPC + AC/5 combo, because they're only 200 m/s apart)

D. Firing at large targets (more likely to hit them for obvious reasons)

E. Firing at slow-moving/immobile targets (mostly applies to larger enemies who accelerate slowly, see point D)

F. If the target is moving in a straight line towards you

G. SSRMs and LRMs are effectively "auto-aim," meaning that they don't need to be aimed seperately from other weapons (yes, the missiles spread out naturally, but that affects chain-firers equally or worse as it does alpha strikers).

I noticed that you used the words "reduce" and "minimize" and not "nulify". That's OK isn't it? It's still not complete convergence on the same exact point, right?

A) The pinpoint nature of all lasers is negated by the fact that they are DOT weapons. Even the most accurate shooter will not land all that damage on the same component. If the target is sitting still, then they deserve it and can use that as a learning experience. Large lasers and LPL do NOT get a penalty simply for being on the same mech. If you could put 90 large lasers on one mech you could still avoid any penalty by staggering fire. There is no boating penalty for lasers or any other weapon.

I believe that weapons SHOULD be more accurate at close range. I'm much more accurate with a .22 rifle at 20 feet than I am at 100 feet. Regardless, if the opponent is moving the damage can still spread. I don't think anyone is complaining about brawling, though.

C) Similar projectile speed is not the same projectile speed. Even if you have the exact same projectile speed, if an enemy is moving perpendicular to you at 500 m you will most likely have to lead them in order to hit them. You will be aiming at a point behind the enemy mech and as a result you will not have complete convergence at the point where the enemy mech is standing.

D & E) I guess this is your most valid point, but the large/slow movers also have more armor, so it's not as big of an issue. The travel speeds of the weapons are still different, though, so even when shooting at a slow moving mech you will not hit the same exact spot with the different weapon types.

F) If they're moving in a straight line toward you, you will absolutely hit the same point with all weapons. Tip: Do your best to not move straight toward or away from your enemy.

G) You know missiles already spread by design, so there's no issue here.

[Vodrin Thales]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

I have 2 PPC and an AC10 on my D-DC. 30 Point Alpha also. Not a lot of damage. feels like a TT Gauss to me.

And yet if you can hit the same panel of a target mech 3 times with that weapon combo you can core anything lighter than an Atlas, and kill most mechs lighter than 65 tons.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vodrin Thales, on 06 November 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

And yet if you can hit the same panel of a target mech 3 times with that weapon combo you can core anything lighter than an Atlas, and kill most mechs lighter than 65 tons.

Just like a TT Gauss could... Yes. Not OP.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 November 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[RetroActive]

Vodrin Thales, on 06 November 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

And yet if you can hit the same panel of a target mech 3 times with that weapon combo you can core anything lighter than an Atlas, and kill most mechs lighter than 65 tons.

Improbable unless the target is sitting still. Different travel speeds of the weapons + moving target + human error probably means that your shots will not all hit the same panel every time.

[Bront]

RetroActive, on 06 November 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

And to you people and your "convergence is the issue" nonsense: Let's set it up like table top and make everything hit random hit boxes...that sounds fun (sarcasm). I rather like it when weapons shoot where I point. I'm glad PGI has not, and most likely will not, succumb to the "convergence is the issue" nonsense out there.

Convergence is part of the issue. Instant convergence is more of the issue. There are ways to balance convergence so everything is nearby but doesn't line up 100% instantly.

But convergence won't fix all the issues of Alpha. Honestly, a low capacity high dissipation heat system would also help prevent a lot of alpha boating, as large energy weapons and the AC20 generate enough heat to cause issues with that.

[FupDup]

RetroActive, on 06 November 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

I noticed that you used the words "reduce" and "minimize" and not "nulify". That's OK isn't it? It's still not complete convergence on the same exact point, right?

In some of the cases you can actually outright nullify it (short range, slow/big target, etc.).

RetroActive, on 06 November 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

A) The pinpoint nature of all lasers is negated by the fact that they are DOT weapons. Even the most accurate shooter will not land all that damage on the same component. If the target is sitting still, then they deserve it and can use that as a learning experience. Large lasers and LPL do NOT get a penalty simply for being on the same mech. If you could put 90 large lasers on one mech you could still avoid any penalty by staggering fire. There is no boating penalty for lasers or any other weapon.
----------------------------------------------------
I believe that weapons SHOULD be more accurate at close range. I'm much more accurate with a .22 rifle at 20 feet than I am at 100 feet. Regardless, if the opponent is moving the damage can still spread. I don't think anyone is complaining about brawling, though.

If they are DoT, why are any lasers on the ghost heat list? By that argument, shouldn't only pinpoint weapons like PPCs and larger Autocannons be on the list?

Anyways, having to stagger your fire IS a penalty, especially in a metagame revolving around exchanging high-damage blows from behind cover.
----------------------------------------------
I don't have anything against brawling, either. I'm just saying that there are a number of ways to get around spread limitations.

RetroActive, on 06 November 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

C) Similar projectile speed is not the same projectile speed. Even if you have the exact same projectile speed, if an enemy is moving perpendicular to you at 500 m you will most likely have to lead them in order to hit them. You will be aiming at a point behind the enemy mech and as a result you will not have complete convergence at the point where the enemy mech is standing.

If the speed is similar enough then it can suffice, unless the target is moving pretty fast and/or is small (both cases are less common than large and slow targets). The specific example of the new FoTM build, PPCs and AC/5 mixing, works pretty well in most normal cases due to them being very, very close in speed. Even if they don't hit the exact same pixel, they will at least all hit the target's center mass, and that is preferable to keeping oneself exposed to aim multiple shots.

RetroActive, on 06 November 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

D & E) I guess this is your most valid point, but the large/slow movers also have more armor, so it's not as big of an issue. The travel speeds of the weapons are still different, though, so even when shooting at a slow moving mech you will not hit the same exact spot with the different weapon types.

If they're accelerating/decelerating to peek around corners/over hills (which is fairly often), you can definitely get weapons of reasonably similar speed to hit them in the same spot or fairly close to it.

RetroActive, on 06 November 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

F) If they're moving in a straight line toward you, you will absolutely hit the same point with all weapons. Tip: Do your best to not move straight toward or away from your enemy.

It's not about me moving in a straight line, it's about finding ways to circumvent weapon spread. In some situations there can also be narrow corridors/chokepoints (Mordor I'm looking at you!) that allow the dakka to flow unhindered.

RetroActive, on 06 November 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

G) You know missiles already spread by design, so there's no issue here.

The issue is that weapons which already spread don't need an additional external mechanic intended to increase spread.


The reason missiles seem fine under GH right now is because LRMs are too heavy and vulnerable to suit most situations, and SSRMs only come in tubes of 2 right now. When we get Clan tech, chain-firing their LRMs (which have no minimum range, BTW, and come at half the weight) and SSRMs (available in tube sizes of up to 6, have 360m range) will have absolutely no negative impact on their accuracy, and players will load up on these weapons for short-medium range and have zero fears whatsoever of incurring heat penalties.

The future looks pretty scary for these weapons. GH is intended to make people spread out their damage from multiples of the same weapon, but auto-aim mechanics completely negate that aiming disadvantage.

Edited by FupDup, 06 November 2013 - 02:55 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

FupDup, on 06 November 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

In some of the cases you can actually outright nullify it (short range, slow/big target, etc.).



If they are DoT, why are any lasers on the ghost heat list? By that argument, shouldn't only pinpoint weapons like PPCs and larger Autocannons be on the list?

You and I would think that.

Quote

Anyways, having to stagger your fire IS a penalty, especially in a metagame revolving around exchanging high-damage blows from behind cover.

Yup.

They could have just ruled that due to to energy drain and/or recoil, you can't fire any weapon that deals more 10 or more damage in a single projectile together with other weapons, firing one would put all 10+ damage weapons on a global cooldown.

No bizarre ghost heat based on abritrary curves and multipliers, but a stop to Quad PPCs, Dual AC/40s. or rather, not a stop - just a small penalty that takes away the synergistic advantage they have.
Sure, still a bit arbitrary, but a lot simpler and probably easier to communicate, and a lot less numbers to throw around.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

Hence the name Annihilator. IIRC There was one in MW3 that was a beast to beat.

guys the leg strike mechanic for MW3 just meant you had to throw a whole payload into the annihilator's leg and it would fall down. then another burst and the leg would nearly be gone, walk around behind it and the third strike ended him. it would be lucky to even hit you. my personal fav was a JJ blackhawk/nova with 14sml pulse lasers alpharing the legs after being high enough to be out of it's firing line {even possible in the mech factory} to volleys of that would de-leg it. i guess on hard mode it could get a first shot in and it was up to luck if it threw you to the ground or not but the leg trip mechanics in MW3 made killing ranged beasts like that really easy.

MWO however is different and i think we know why.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 07 November 2013 - 12:02 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

How did you get a Nova...wait you were so lucky to salvage that thing in the last mission of the 1st episode.
When I met that Annihlator i had a Thor C - hardly with enough ammunition for its main weapon.

GalaxyBluestar, on 07 November 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

MWO however is different and i think we know why.

Because players will always tend to use the easy way. why to bother with only 8 shots for the UAC 20 when i can have infinite shots of small pulse lasers that are more precise and deal much more damage (no offend intended)

[Texas Merc]

ehh atlas ddc

ac20 3 srm6 2 ml

all fired at the same time

48 pt alpha

yeah the srms spread a bit and its not long range but still ghost heat doesn't fix this.

Remember in CB when PPCs were way too hot and hsr wasn't in? Nobody used them.

Obviously there is one theme in all of these builds and its PPCs. why not fix that weapon instead of making ridiculous and hard to find documented band-****?

Remember the patch that reduced heat on ppcs, made them go faster to target and also had an HSR fix?

That is when your Stalker PPC meta came in. The HGN just made it worse.

Instead of rolling any of that back or fixing it properly we get convoluted rules instead.

THANKS PAUL

Edited by Texas Merc, 07 November 2013 - 12:31 AM.

[Joey Tankblaster]

The result of the poll is quite clear.

[Karl Streiger]

Texas Merc, on 07 November 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

Remember in CB when PPCs were way too hot and hsr wasn't in? Nobody used them.

Call me nobody... i used them - although all of there disadvantages:

• delay between firing
  
• high heat
  
• bad hit detection
  
• slow travel speed
  
• splash damage

They had a good sound and the animation of a hit was amazing. And last not least the trill of killing something with PPCs was great. Not so deaf as it was in january or march
During that days i start to ran an Atlas with 2 ER-PPCs and 1 Gauss..with 29 SHS. While it was madness to trigger all the weapons in an Alpha Strike it was possible - and a Hunchback kill in 4 sec proved that this combination was deadly.


Also started a match with 4 disconnects on my side - still i was capable to kill almost single handed 4 enemy mechs - and without HUD Bug it would have been 6.

THe PPC buffs that followed after Open Beta were simple stupid. All the PPC did need was a good hit detection.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 07 November 2013 - 12:57 AM.