11 replies to this topic

[Magna Canus]

Hi everybody,
PGI has taken out the nerf bat again, this time against Seismic sensors, but have not addressed an item that IMHO has a much higher priority: ECMs ability to cloak all friendly units within 180m.

Rather than dig up all the data myself again I will refer to an archived post from Lupus Aurelius.

http://mwomercs.com/...h-master-rules/

I have also inserted the post text here:

Yes, another ECM post, but with data. I wanted to spend a couple days evaluating and researching ECM in MWO, and the Battletech rules, instead of just knee-jerking a reaction.

Per the Classic BattleTech Master Rules, page 136:
http://www.lski.org/...20-%20Clear.pdf

"An ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of
sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM."

Effects:

-Active Probes: Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed.
-Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the effects of the Artemis IV FCS. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but the Missile Hits Table bonus is lost.
-Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Missile Hits Table bonus for that system if they are affected by ECM. The Narc launcher itself is
not affected by ECM.
-C3 Computer: ECM has the effect of “cutting off” any C3 equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from the network by being inside the ECM radius, the entire portion of the network “below” it is effectively shut off (all units subordinate to it on the diagram on p. 135). Only those C3 units that can draw an LOS to the master unit that does not pass into or through the ECM radius can access the network."

Based on the above, ECM should only cloak the mech it is mounted on, not all friendly units within the 180m radius. Narc should still allow targeting, but the missle bonus is lost, and transmitting targeting data should still work if line of sight with the "master unit" - which could be whoever grabs the commander function in a drop.

This would still allow for scouts to be stealthy and get targeting info for their team, or for heavier mechs, allow for the ablity to hide location of part of their force if those mechs have ECM equipped. LRMs and streaks would be less effective/not effective against those units, but still would be effective against non-ECM equipped mechs.

[Hexenhammer]

It's best to leave the Guardian/Angel ECM debate alone because PGI is using its own version and it's easier for them to ignore and flush threads like these than defend and explain their game design choices.

But in short. MWO is using something between Guardian and Angel that shouldn't exist in the current time line and it is what it is.

Edited by Hexenhammer, 06 November 2013 - 03:02 AM.

[A Man In A Can]

You're wasting your time with all that man. What you're asking for is a game true to Battletech rules, and the devs of MWO have absolutely no intention of sticking to them verbatum. Nor do they want to follow in the footsteps of previous developers of MW games. PGI wants MWO to be outside of the mold of the past (but still be similar enough that you can say it's Mechwarrior) and thus everything works different here. Including how all the the electronic warfare elements relate to each other.

If you want a modern game that stays more true to Battletech rules, I would recommend you play MW Tactics. Otherwise, I'd suggest you find ways to make things work within the vision of PGI if you want to boldly go where no mechwarrior has gone before.

Edited by CYBRN4CR, 06 November 2013 - 04:00 AM.

[Magna Canus]

CYBRN4CR, on 06 November 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

If you want a modern game that stays more true to Battletech rules, I would recommend you play MW Tactics. Otherwise, I'd suggest you find ways to make things work within the vision of PGI if you want to boldly go where no mechwarrior has gone before.

That option is starting to look more attractive from patch to patch....

[A Man In A Can]

Then make the leap my friend. No one is forcing you to stay here.

[Aluminumfoiled]

I would add ECM got a stealth buff from the (ER)PPC nerf beating. I carried 1 on my mediums to turn off ECM to see whats hiding behind that DDC and alert them team it's there. Just not worth carring 1 any more esp on a medium. Gotta boat them then cool down now to be usable ie UAC5/2PPC.

Don't disagree with the nerf for the Gauss/ERPPC meta but Law of Unintended Consequences.

[Spike Brave]

IMO they should remove the free C3 that all mechs have if they change how ECM works.

[Dirus Nigh]

Spike Brave, on 10 November 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

IMO they should remove the free C3 that all mechs have if they change how ECM works.

There is no free C3 network in MWO.

The target data sharing is fully in line with indirect spotting rules, and LOS double blind rules for Battletech. A mech only shares target information with an enemy it is actively targeting. Just like the novels and source books have had relay scouting information. The Ostscout is a perfect example. It's original 3025 TRO describes the mechs targeting and communications systems as being the best for scouting and sharing data with it's company.

If MWO's information sharing were to work similar to the C3 network at least two things would occur. All mechs detected by a friendly unit would be relayed to the rest of the company, regardless of being actively targeted or not. Missile lock on times would be shortened. The C3 system is a network for the actual targeting computers of a lance, or company. The system we have now only relays position, allows a target lock. It does not enhance the target lock, or increase the accuracy of direct fire weapons.

[Spike Brave]

Dirus Nigh, on 11 November 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

There is no free C3 network in MWO.

The target data sharing is fully in line with indirect spotting rules, and LOS double blind rules for Battletech. A mech only shares target information with an enemy it is actively targeting. Just like the novels and source books have had relay scouting information. The Ostscout is a perfect example. It's original 3025 TRO describes the mechs targeting and communications systems as being the best for scouting and sharing data with it's company.

If MWO's information sharing were to work similar to the C3 network at least two things would occur. All mechs detected by a friendly unit would be relayed to the rest of the company, regardless of being actively targeted or not. Missile lock on times would be shortened. The C3 system is a network for the actual targeting computers of a lance, or company. The system we have now only relays position, allows a target lock. It does not enhance the target lock, or increase the accuracy of direct fire weapons.

I disagree. We share all targeting information with all friendly Mechs even without line of sight. I can see enemy damage even without LOS so it does not follow the double bind rules. All mechs detected by a friendly are relayed even if they aren't being targeted. There are no missle lock times in TT so not sure why you would say that.

That being said, MWO is based on TT and cannot be a direct conversion due to a TT being 10 seconds of real time. I think the current implementation of ECM and Mech targeting is balanced and good take on the TT rules for a FPS/Sim game.

I am NOT saying you are wrong. I am just offering my opinion as I stated my first post. The nature of this game versus the TT rules does leave some room for debate about how things work.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Hexenhammer, on 06 November 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

It's best to leave the Guardian/Angel ECM debate alone because PGI is using its own version and it's easier for them to ignore and flush threads like these than defend and explain their game design choices.

But in short. MWO is using something between Guardian and Angel that shouldn't exist in the current time line and it is what it is.

i only demand more tech if this is the case, where is my arrow IV that these guided lrm thingies are made from?

[Ruhkil]

the bigger issue with ECM though slightly off topic is the fact that there is *no limit* to how many mechs on a certain team can carry an ECM. it is possible but not plausible that the whole enemy team could be carrying it. its like okay lets try and restrict the weight to about even parity but lets not do anything about ECM. think of a new player who does not know about ECM he foolishly tries out lrms in the testing ground thinks they are good and then cant do a thing with them in game.

In addition if 7 of the enemy mechs have ECM then essentially the entire enemy team is immune to LRMSon my shadowhawk missle boat i used to carry a ppc for the purpose of shutting down ECM on whatever atlas i was shooting at.
i am not complaining that is a strategy that i used.
my issue is would a new player know how to build his mech and manage his heat enough so that his fragile medium mech could beat the ecm atlas bearing down on him?
on the one hand one could say L2P however a newbie does not know where to stand and has difficulty recovering from mistakes add in ECM as it is now and we are just killing our playerbase

Edited by Ruhkil, 02 February 2014 - 05:49 AM.

[Ruhkil]

i guess its just frustrating when roughly 3/4 of the enemy team is carrying ECM which cloaks their movements. Its a good strategy but these devices were not supposed to be so widespread. A battlevalue system would fix this. "oh this team has an atlas with ECM lets allow the other team a 55 ton mech instead of a 45 ton mech as compensation."