388 replies to this topic

[Xanquil]

The Justicar, on 08 November 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

It's like I'm talking to a rock. Are you secretly a PGI employee? Or just a meta-humping AC boater?

AC/2 should NEVER, EVER out-dps a PPC, or a large laser, or any larger autocannon. NEVER. The fact that it does illustrates that the balance is broken.

The fire rates are too high. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.

Agreed, reducing the ROF of all ACs by .5-1s would be a good start.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Ghost Badger, on 08 November 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Running out of ammo is rarely a consideration...if you take enough. If you take enough, you're using up tonnage...tonnage that is no longer going towards a larger engine, or a STD engine, or to heatsinks if you have a mixed build. Just because people choose to take enough ballistic ammo doesn't mean it's not working correctly.

You could lower the amount of ammo per ton, and people would still take the same amount of ammo...they'd just be forced into even slower engine classes or have to skimp on armor. Most will just move slower...and if they catch you in a brawl, that slower engine isn't going to save you....

All-energy and all-autocannon boats are DIFFERENT, but I don't know that one is better, despite so many people stating it and assuming it to be fact.

Let's look at a JM6-S, for example, since it has 4 of each hardpoint, and 65 tons.

Ballistic: If you take 4 AC5's and skimp on ammo, only taking 4 tons, and keep match armor except on the legs, you can shoehorn in an XL 245 and then put in 1 heatsink to fulfill the 10 requirement. That gives you a top speed of 67 kph and a squishy XL engine. Congrats, you're like a paper Atlas.

Energy: You can take a STD or XL and still be faster. If you want great heat, go with the XL. You have no ammo restrictions, you're fast enough to take advantage of your cooldown time, you can throw in AMS and your alpha is bigger.

In a straight up brawl, will the ballistic build win? If both stood and stared and each other and shot? Yeah, probably. Will the energy build use it's speed, terrain and bigger alpha to fight on a pretty even footing in a match where they AREN'T doing a death hug? I'd say, probably.

What's funny is that you're likely to get the best utility out of a mixed build, where the strengths and weaknesses of both weapons systems compliment on another (in my opinion). I like having my ballistics rip off armor and then have my lasers hit underneath with a large alpha for a happy ending.

I'll go one better - 2 Firebrands, 1 energy based, the other ballistic: http://mwomercs.com/...-was-excessive/

As far as boating 4 AC5s, it can be done, but it's damn rare and you gimp yourself immensely with that build.

I will, with reservations, agree that mechs packing both ballistics and energy probably fair well. However, there are a significant amount of mechs that cannot fit ballistics, and under the current meta are sub-optimal to a ballistic heavy mech. How many Quickdraws do you see around? Few indeed.

Currently, I'm rocking a Shadowhawk 5M, 2 AC2s, 6 tons of ammo, 2 ML and 2 SSRMs. I's murder, quite frankly. But for the life of me, can't get the same damage and sustainability of fire with the Thunderbolt 5SS and 9E, which are all energy. Most of what you here in a battle now are dual to quad AC2s, dual to triple AC5s/UACs, and the occasional dual AC10. And I mean HEAR. It's deafening. That's a statement unto itself.

[nehebkau]

To the OP....

Regarding your title -- Why yes yes it is "AC Warrior Online" Heat is munged for energy weapons.


The fix is easy though....a 30% increase to heat dissapation by heat sinks.

Edited by nehebkau, 08 November 2013 - 01:47 PM.

[Bacl]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Nobody ever bothers to talk about the trade-offs such as additional weight, crit spaces, and ammo (which also takes up weight and slots) because it's not convenient to their ideas and opinions

Feast your eyes on this because i did bother:

Batlle master 1G std engine 200

1 AC5 DPS is 3,33 with 229% cooling effiency for 6 tons and 4 critical slots.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1960e2a771055ea

Now same build with medium laser tying to match the AC 5 dps is: 3 medium laser with 8DHS for a total of 11 tons and 27 critical space topped with a cooling efficiency of 91%
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f79ca1db02e867c

If you balance the whole thing to the tonnage that Ac 5 will get 3 tons of ammo for a total of 7 critical space and 90 shells, this is huge for 1 single canon.

For fun lets go for the dual AC 5 build that has 6,66 DPS with 114% cooling efficiency
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...303fcdb1f90ee12

To match the dual Ac5 DPS with medium lasers, i simply cant with DHS since i dont have enough critical space to do so...
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...748af547c8d073b

So i tried with single heat sinks, used 6 medium lasers and filled every single critical space available to slot single heat sinks and i still cant match the DPS or the cooling efficiency of the dual AC5 while he can use that extra tonnage for literally tons of ammo.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aa95d15c82b952c


So yeah dont get me the critical space and ammo as a argumenets it simply doesnt stand on its own, the only way they become a problem is when you mix energy WITH ballistics, any more questions?

P.S. Also, lasers kinda reveal your position ( follow the rainbow?) compared to the single shot AC, they have shorter range, longer reload, are damage over time and not single point, want me to continue? Because i still have few things on my list.

Edited by Bacl, 08 November 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[Blacksoul1987]

I somewhat hesitantly agree that ballistics are a bit too strong now. I just hope they can find a good balance, in MW4 most ballistics were entirely absent except for gauss and occasionally lbx. Weapon balance in this game is much better than it was in MW4.

[Rhent]

Blacksoul1987, on 08 November 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

I somewhat hesitantly agree that ballistics are a bit too strong now. I just hope they can find a good balance, in MW4 most ballistics were entirely absent except for gauss and occasionally lbx. Weapon balance in this game is much better than it was in MW4.

Heat is the only limiter in MWO, due to that, any weapon that has low heat for the same amount of damage will always be superior. As long as the Dev's are basing everything on heat, expect a {Scrap} game.

[Sandpit]

Lupus Aurelius, on 08 November 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Ignoring data and facts is what I call denial, and promoting an agenda. If the data does not support your statements, then your statements are incorrect. Sounds like it's you protecting your agenda, regardless of data.

lol
It's kinda hard to have an agenda when you state "this is my opinion on the matter based on the numbers I see and own personal experience in the game"

I'm not, unlike some *coughLupuscough*, stating my opinion as fact.

Fact: The game is not perfectly balanced
Opinion: It's balanced enough. ACs are OP and nobody uses them"

Fact: There are trade-offs to each weapon type
Opinion: Those trade-offs aren't effective. Those trade-offs don't exist.

Fact: Mathematical equations show certain weapons do different types of damage and DPS
Opinion: That makes one entire weapon type completely ineffective

See the difference? When I state factual evidence of trade-offs and then I state my opinion on that factual evidence, I dont' claim my opinion to be fact simply because it is based on factual evidence.

I didn't jump on here and say the game is balanced and that's a fact.
There are some, however, that jumped on here and said ACs are op and energy weapons are completely useless and ineffective and players can't use them to be competitive in the game.

It's also hard to accuse someone of having an agenda when their opinion is actually in favor of the supposed gimped weapon arguing against it being made more powerful. Even if you don't see the fallacies in your statements unbiased people will

[Sandpit]

Bacl, on 08 November 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Feast your eyes on this because i did bother:

Batlle master 1G std engine 200

1 AC5 DPS is 3,33 with 229% cooling effiency for 6 tons and 4 critical slots.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1960e2a771055ea

Now same build with medium laser tying to match the AC 5 dps is: 3 medium laser with 8DHS for a total of 11 tons and 27 critical space topped with a cooling efficiency of 91%
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f79ca1db02e867c

If you balance the whole thing to the tonnage that Ac 5 will get 3 tons of ammo for a total of 7 critical space and 90 shells, this is huge for 1 single canon.

For fun lets go for the dual AC 5 build that has 6,66 DPS with 114% cooling efficiency
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...303fcdb1f90ee12

To match the dual Ac5 DPS with medium lasers, i simply cant with DHS since i dont have enough critical space to do so...
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...748af547c8d073b

So i tried with single heat sinks, used 6 medium lasers and filled every single critical space available to slot single heat sinks and i still cant match the DPS or the cooling efficiency of the dual AC5 while he can use that extra tonnage for literally tons of ammo.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aa95d15c82b952c


So yeah dont get me the critical space and ammo as a argumenets it simply doesnt stand on its own, the only way they become a problem is when you mix energy WITH ballistics, any more questions?

P.S. Also, lasers kinda reveal your position ( follow the rainbow?) compared to the single shot AC, they have shorter range, longer reload, are damage over time and not single point, want me to continue? Because i still have few things on my list.

There's no "argument". There is a factual trade-off regardless of what your opinion on it is. I could go just as deep with the trade-offs. You can't prove me wrong because it isn't factual it's opinion. The same goes for myself. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong. What I AM doing is pointing out that no matter how hard you try, how much factual evidence you provide, you are still giving an opinion based on that information. There's no "right or wrong", there is only YOUR opinion on the matter.

The minute you make statements like. "Everyone uses ballistics because energy weapons are useless", THEN you become wrong. You're not wrong because that's your opinion, you're wrong because you're stating your opinion as a universal and lateral blanket statement regarding every player in the game.

Your OPINION is that there is a huge unbalance in weapon systems.
My OPINION is that there is not.

Stop trying to prove me "wrong" and make a case to PGI. No amount of "x+y = AC op and unbeatable" will change my mind on the subject.

I don't make my posts to prove you wrong, I make my posts to let the devs know (if they happen to be reading these types of threads) that not everyone agrees with your opinion. Do you see the difference in what I'm saying and what you're trying to make this into?

[Fate 6]

Sandpit, on 08 November 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

It amazes me how you can show examples and people still sit in denial because it doesn't fit into their agenda.

I could easily take any comparable weapon systems and show the trade-offs. I'm not going to because I don't feel the want or need to. I've played long enough here to know what true OP and imbalance is and we are FAR from that. Just because a certain weapon balance performs in a different manner doesn't make it "better".

There are tons of people who use ballistics because they enjoy that style of play. I like my energy weapons for the same reasons they like their ballistics. I do just fine competitively with my energy weapons against all builds. If ACs were TRULY that op, you would see nothing but ballistics. You would see no other weapons used, except maybe in certain cases of missiles or to fill out leftover tonnage after completing your build. As it is now I see every weapon system utilized effectively. There will never be a perfect balance because it is, in large part, subjective.

I see thigns as very balanced at the moment. Want to see true imbalance? Look up some of the videos from lrmpocalypse and SSRMs when the spread on those things was too tight. THOSE were imbalances. This? This is not.

How can I say this? Well I can say that because it's my opinion on the current state of balance. There's nothing wrong with stating that you feel it's imbalanced but you can't make statements like "ACs are OP, everybody uses them" or "You can't be competitive without ballistics" because those are subjective and flat out untrue. It doesn't matter how many mathematical equations or factual evidence you use to justify your opinion, it's still an opinion.

You also can't say "Everyone, most of, the majority, (any %), etc. agrees with you" because that's simply untrue as well. You ahve no idea how many outside of this exact thread agree or disagree with you (other than maybe catching players in the game and getting their opinion on the matter as well).

If those kinds of statements were true we wouldn't even be having this discussion because everyone would agree with you. If you feel something needs to be changed then state your case for it but arguing with those how disagree on a completely subjective matter is pointless. We all get caught up in that sometimes but the bottom line is that if PGI looks at all of the factual data that they have and see that it is a problem they will make changes.

Well, I think this is imbalance, because the other systems are a bit weak right now. ACs certainly aren't OP, I think everything else is a tiny bit UP in comparison. ACs are almost right where they should be (ammo could arguably be reduced a bit).

We can look at it this way. AC5s still weren't great even after range buffs. They didn't start getting used until energy weapons got crapped on and we had Terra thrust at us like the steaming vat of {Scrap} that it is.

[Rasc4l]

The Justicar, on 08 November 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

It's like I'm talking to a rock. Are you secretly a PGI employee? Or just a meta-humping AC boater?

Heh, no unfortunately, I don't work at PGI. If I did, we would have much more reasonable information warfare.

The Justicar, on 08 November 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

AC/2 should NEVER, EVER out-dps a PPC, or a large laser, or any larger autocannon. NEVER. The fact that it does illustrates that the balance is broken.

The fire rates are too high. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.

I hope you would at least agree from our "math discussion" that neither side of the argument actually has any great natural laws behind their opinion. You continue to claim it is some horrible natural disaster that AC/2 out-dps's PPC. I also read the longer post from Lupus Aurelius below yours, which explained at great length how the the current ballistics have much greater fire rate than in TT (which is not that functional comparison).

Could you please explain like to a 6-year old, how "the fact it does illustrates that the balance is broken"? You just take this from a theoretical heat/fire rate discussion and that "math" alone is enough for you to reach that conclusion. But does this have any practical relevance i.e. do you actually get continuously beaten in matches by AC/2 boats with your PPC or what?

Because during LRMapocalypse or PPCs having too little heat, I would notice it every time I played, because that was the thing to do for everyone. Nothing like this happens to me currently when I'm facing foes with ACs. Personally I don't have cataphracts and I leveled my jägers long ago and haven't really played them since. My main use of ballistics is nowadays as a supplement weapon to my lasers and/or missiles. If the AC is a larger kind, the lasers and/or missiles supplement it. Nevertheless, I don't really boat them excect machine guns. So I don't really see ACs dominating the battlefield. Am I just blind or so biased I'm missing something taking place in front of my eyes? Maybe someone should make a poll asking how much AC-roflstomping happens?

EDIT: typo

Edited by Rasc4l, 09 November 2013 - 06:50 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Eylradjaw, on 08 November 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

Well thats life. Energy weapons are more accurate and need no ammo but are lest powerful. Even in our own modern world.

When I get shot at I simply move away and fins a new angle. Adaptation is key.

In the Battletech universe, ACs need constant supplying on the battlefront, making them a bad choice for extented confrontations. Energy weapons were always there and ready.

Joseph Mallan, on 08 November 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

I am not trying to discourage anything, just pointing to the obvious. They are already unhappy cause they think combat should be perfectly balanced, It's not, and never has been. Neither has competition. Someone always has a better fastball, better coach, more money, perfect balance would have allowed the Detroit Lions to have won at least One Superbowl! If you are playing competitively someone will almost always be better and someone will almost always be worse than you. If you do not come to the game accepting this truth, you will always be complaining that, this, that or the other is not fair.

the problem with the adaption technique is that it's a cause to spam. matches become overcrowded with "adapters" and the game becomes stale and boring as everyone's driving ferraris and using shumacher tactics. dull dull dull. it's the only reason i lobby for some balance, to encourage that you don't need an ubermech to do well and you don't need to become narrowminded in your gameplay approach to overcome. good games give you different choices and options. this game sells it's mechlab on that basis. it becomes pointless if the options are forced upon you as one ring rules them all.

luckily it hasn't been that bad but some metas lick ecm raven and perhaps the ppc meta really pushed builds and players into spaming the same match after match. that's what balance is about, it's not about buffs and nerfs and arbitary rules to cut off options, it's about making as much as viable as possible. saddly MM, nor the deathmatch format can deliver on this so we won't see balance play for some years yet.

[VikingN1nja]

charge ppc bring back the gauss.

[Whatzituyah]

The thing that came with the nerf of PPC is ghost heat. Ghost heat was meant to stop boating but then it caused a whole new issue that no one wants to use energy weapons anymore thing pretty much.

Edited by Whatzituyah, 09 November 2013 - 08:50 PM.

[Sandpit]

Whatzituyah, on 09 November 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

Ghost heat was meant to stop poptarts

Source? Citation? I can't remember ever seeing anything from the devs that said this?

[Whatzituyah]

Sandpit, on 09 November 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

Source? Citation? I can't remember ever seeing anything from the devs that said this?

They used to have a post ok? I only see the AC one but I am sure they were trying to stop boating mean seriously a person Poping out of nowhere with a ppc boat or something they would be dead but nope they didn't they encouraged ballistics instead. Also I am surprised that this thread doesn't say anying about LRM online

Edited by Whatzituyah, 09 November 2013 - 08:52 PM.

[Sandpit]

Whatzituyah, on 09 November 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

.Also I am surprised that this thread doesn't say anying about LRM online

That? That right there is exactly my point. That mentality is what leads to these thread.

I've never seen anythign even remotely stating ghost heat was for poptarting, normally I don't bother asking for a source but in this case I'd have to see that to believe it.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Quote

Whatzituyah, on 09 November 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:


Ghost heat was meant to stop poptarts

Sandpit, on 09 November 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

Source? Citation? I can't remember ever seeing anything from the devs that said this?

Maybe its a Eckman alternate account.

Whatzituyah, on 09 November 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

They used to have a post ok? I only see the AC one but I am sure they were trying to stop boating mean seriously a person Poping out of nowhere with a ppc boat or something they would be dead but nope they didn't they encouraged ballistics instead. Also I am surprised that this thread doesn't say anying about LRM online

So you don't die to poptarts now>?
Surely you do as they are still quite effective. But it has little to do w/nerfs or buffs. It is good players making the best of what is available in the present state of weapons 'balance'.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 09 November 2013 - 09:26 PM.

[NKAc Street]

Another noob that stands still and gets hit by ballistics and cries to mom.

[Whatzituyah]

NKAc Street, on 09 November 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

Another noob that stands still and gets hit by ballistics and cries to mom.

Sure try to avoid shots when your just a huge target anyway and very slow. Very exact reason I mostly use mediums and lights.

Edited by Whatzituyah, 09 November 2013 - 09:40 PM.

[Sandpit]

http://mwomercs.com/...00#entry2908511

So which is it? Is it LRM Online now or are we still at AC Warrior Online?

Just wondering so I know what weapon system, mech, chassis, tactic, and strategy to use.