388 replies to this topic

[Mad Strike]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 November 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

I like all of them, and tried all but the 3rd one. I would pull the MG for anything else on the 4th, but that is a personal preference.

keep the MG....beleive me ...it works in those moments of "90% heat and only one more shot to take him down"....works for me (

[Sir Ratburger]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 November 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Ok in 10 seconds of battle the AC10 can hit you with 4 slugs for a max of 40 damage. A PPC can hit you twice, for a max of 20 damage. PPCs need to be able to match an AC10s damage output for me to say they are balanced.

As I explained in the rest of the paragraph after you read for more than 10 seconds (granted though it was a bit long) - different roles, different heat, different tonnage, ammo ect... PPC's have unlimted ammo and weigh less, they also knock out the ECM on mechs who have it making them vunerable to quick missile locks and basically being invisible. PPC's have their benifits but also their downsides just like the AC10 which is heavy, has imited ammo and does nothing against ECM but packs a decent punch with less heat for a short amount of time until the ammo is gone... or until that backward, silly, mindnumbung and ridiculous so called 'solution' they came up with called ghost heat kicks in.

Edited by Sir Ratburger, 15 November 2013 - 02:38 AM.

[Wolfways]

Sir Ratburger, on 15 November 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

As I explained in the rest of the paragraph after you read for more than 10 seconds (granted though it was a bit long) - different roles, different heat, different tonnage, ammo ect... PPC's have unlimted ammo and weigh less, they also knock out the ECM on mechs who have it making them vunerable to quick missile locks and basically being invisible. PPC's have their benifits but also their downsides just like the AC10 which is heavy, has imited ammo and does nothing against ECM but packs a decent punch with less heat for a short amount of time until the ammo is gone... or until that backward, silly, mindnumbung and ridiculous so called 'solution' they came up with called ghost heat kicks in.

AC's have unlimited ammo if you fit enough. Ammo is the same weight but 1/3 the crit slots used by DHS which the PPC needs.
Also, 4 seconds is not long enough for missiles to reach a target (including lock-on time) so it's pointless unless the PPC mech is willing to stand in the open firing at the ECM mech every 3 or less seconds, which is only possible with two PPC's.

[-Muta-]

The Justicar, on 06 November 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

What a ridiculous and unconstructive comment.

Everything they've done is terrible, broken, and stupid. PGI is simply incapable of balancing this game, and it is a very simple game to balance. Blizzard keeps WOW in relative balance and it is, quite literally, orders of magnitude more complex. The fact that this game has been out two years and AC v Energy balance is so terrible is embarassing, and lets not even talk about the broken heat system.

Nobody is asking for a buff to energy weapons. We're asking for balance across weapons in this game. AC DPS is too high, energy can't compete because of range and heat issues. That's what this thread is about.

And what is constructive about your comment?, You are simply complaining about how unbalanced the weapons are without at least giving suggestion on how to fix it.

for #non-constructiveCRYMEARIVER posters like you there is a thread in the barracks called "The Daily Whine".


PS: I don't even know why you waste your time playing a game you don't enjoy. That is like kissing a fugly girl just because you're feeling lonely

[Mad Strike]

Mutaroc, on 15 November 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

And what is constructive about your comment?, You are simply complaining about how unbalanced the weapons are without at least giving suggestion on how to fix it.

for #non-constructiveCRYMEARIVER posters like you there is a thread in the barracks called "The Daily Whine".


PS: I don't even know why you waste your time playing a game you don't enjoy. That is like kissing a fugly girl just because you're feeling lonely

XD XD XD

[The Justicar]

Mutaroc, on 15 November 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

And what is constructive about your comment?, You are simply complaining about how unbalanced the weapons are without at least giving suggestion on how to fix it.

for #non-constructiveCRYMEARIVER posters like you there is a thread in the barracks called "The Daily Whine".


PS: I don't even know why you waste your time playing a game you don't enjoy. That is like kissing a fugly girl just because you're feeling lonely

I have posted several times in this thread constructively and objectively and defended my position with FACTS. Still, I like how you cherry pick one post to attack me. I play this game because I see the potential it has. Is my hope waning? Yes, but I'm not gone yet.

[Aim64C]

I do recall several of us saying, long ago, that Ghost Heat was a horrible idea - it would turn into Whack-A-Build and Wheel of Stupid.

But I hail back from the day when one could actually play using a Catapult C1 or C4 to some effect (perhaps too much of an effect, if one were not completely ********). Obviously, not as far back as a founder - but I picked up the ins and outs of the kitty pretty quick after the open beta (or... open alpha... or... pre-alpha, even).

Now... I do have to admit that I had fun with a Shadow Hawk design that incorporated an AC10, AC5, and AC2 all in the same torso. It was amusing, to say the least (though 3 AC5s was far more effective).

Of course - there is also my Commando Disintegration Ray (or Locust Vaporizing Beam) utilized by my BJ-1X. 3 PPCs in the same arm was an interesting idea. Ghost Heat has made it somewhat less attractive - but there are several mechs that can utilize a similar combo, now, in torso sections while affording more heatsinks and armor.

Balancing the weapons is going to require more than changing numbers on a spread-sheet or cheap gimmicks to try and penalize trophy builds of the month. It's going to require more innovative solutions affecting how those weapons behave in a real-time environment.

PPCs should have a charge-and-release mechanic (that gives capacitors in the future a more defined role). Missiles should behave more statistically - being a "thinking man's weapon" where he manages and leverages those statistical detriments/advantages on the battlefield (I've ideas for this - but they are a bit intricate for explanation in passing). Lasers should be decent continuous damage weapons (I would argue that a standard laser should not have a recycle time - but be a continuous beam that has a dot and continuously builds up heat). Pulse lasers should concentrate damage into bursts of laser radiation (having a short recycle time) - being something like an "energy autocannon."

ACs should suffer recoil penalty and their damage, while substantial, should not be "all at once." Higher-rated autocannons should have either higher rates of fire (suffering recoil penalties - which is, at least theoretically, what gives them their shorter ranges) or fire in short bursts of successive fire.

Or perhaps something else that I haven't thought of for autocannons.

They should still do pretty impressive damage and be easier to concentrate damage onto a given section than some other weapons - but not quite to the extent that we see, currently.

[Sandpit]

Holy dead horse batman! I can't wait for the next patch. At least then I can giggle over the new "op" tactic, strategy, mech, weapon, etc. that will surely arise.

[FupDup]

Sandpit, on 15 November 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Holy dead horse batman! I can't wait for the next patch. At least then I can giggle over the new "op" tactic, strategy, mech, weapon, etc. that will surely arise.

It'll probably be Awesomes. Rumor (via Garth) has it that their CT will be shrunken, and their sides + arms enlarged to make them tankier. Awesomes OP. Nerf Awesomes.

[Damon Howe]

Energy weapons will always be inferior to ballistic as per the way the game is fundamentally designed. Even if the beam duration was reduced to an instant so they provide pin-point damage in the way that ballistics, the heat will still make them inferior. Likewise, LRMs will always be inferior because they require lock, luck, or raw skill.

It's not something PGI can change, really. Not without completely tearing the game down and rebuilding it. Not without completely scrapping all that was the foundation of BT and the boardgame and restructuring it. The main drawback to ballistics is weight and ammo (and crit slots!), which energy weapons laugh at and missiles still have a decent chance of making their mark comparably. Does this mean that dual ac20 mechs are annoying as hell and too easily OP'ered? Yes. Does this mean there's a simple fix that PGI can pull out? No. Simple as that.

Of course, this will mean nothing because those who don't agree with me will simply enforce Rule of the Internet #11, so I digress.

[Galenit]

Damon Howe, on 15 November 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

Energy weapons will always be inferior to ballistic as per the way the game is fundamentally designed. Even if the beam duration was reduced to an instant so they provide pin-point damage in the way that ballistics, the heat will still make them inferior. Likewise, LRMs will always be inferior because they require lock, luck, or raw skill.

Lets do a "thought experiment" (is this right for "Gedankenexperiment"?):


Imagine the ballistics would have the following changes:

Ballistics will have 0.75 the tt value of shells/tons
- because pinpointdamage against laser-dot and missilespread

Ballistics will have only 2x range
- because they are match then the ranges with 2x energy and 1x missiles, this will give a more over all range consistence.

Ammo will have a 50% chance of exploding on a crit
- because only 10% is nearly unnoticeable and no risk to compensate the low heat on ballistics.


To what will this lead?

Ammo/tons:
-You need 2x the space and tons for the same ammo or you have to use the guns only if the hit counts or you need that extra burst damage. Ammo can and will run out on most mechs.

Range:
- Want to hit around 1000m? No Ac10 or 5 or UAC5 will do noticeable damage, you have to choose between pinpoint gauss or erppc; dot erll or ac2; hitthehillmissiles.
- That ac20 has a lot of pinpoint damage, but only up to 270m, like the srms for spreaddamage, but at 400m it will only do 5 damage, you may be better of with an ac10 or 5. This will divide the weapons more on pinpointdamage/range.

ammo explosion:
- Take ammo take a risk. Did you see case? No? Then the risk is much to low.
- Ammo explosion happen after armor is gone, when a crit occurs and when the crit hits the ammo and then only with 1/10, thats no risk at all. But with 1/2 chance after the two whens, its becomes a risk.


With this 3 changes what would be left for ballistics?

High dps and rof, low heat, pinpointdamage / low ammo, ammoexplosion risk, high weigth / range in line with other weapons

Now we have real tradeoffs for them, giving them a clear role as high burst damage weapons.
Asymmetric balance.

Do you still think it is impossible to balance them against the other weapons?


But its only a thought experiment, in the realworld, we have players that say other weapons are **** let me have my ballistics, because they are so much better then the other weapons.
And devs that throw dices and test the numbers they role in the game ... *

I think 2x range, 1x tt ammo for ballistic and 35% ammoexplosion chance for all ammo is a start for testing it, if pgi and the players want to try it in the game (and then adjusting the numbers in slow steps based on the metrics) ...

Edit:
To compensate the ammoexplosionchance for missiles, they should have their range increased a little to hit at 1000m and not at 1000m - flightarc like it is now.

* Maybe it looks like that for me, because iam on an island build of logics and mathematics?

Edited by Galenit, 16 November 2013 - 05:21 AM.

[Flying Judgement]

Lasers wont register properly thats why they seems useless i use to leed my target for lassers and it worked but now im not so sure because HSR
i shoot a cicadas leg with 6 med lasers and hold them on that legs barely scathing them and its the same for every mech if i shoot a mech running toward me it dies extremely fast.
the lassers are fine but they wont register = seems useless
oh and pulse lasers still need some buff LPLaser is still bad

[Devilsfury]

The team that has the most Dakka Dakka, wins!

[Sandpit]

Devilsfury, on 16 November 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

The team that has the most Dakka Dakka, wins!

The forum with the most QQ is OP

[Devilsfury]

Sandpit, on 16 November 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

The forum with the most QQ is OP

You bring a mix of lasers and ill bring all ballistic. Balistic is the current meta for a reason. its stronger, not a QQ. Again, im just agreeing with the OP on stuff. The meta will change to something new in a month or three.

Edited by Devilsfury, 16 November 2013 - 09:49 PM.

[Sandpit]

Devilsfury, on 16 November 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

You bring a mix of lasers and ill bring all ballistic. Balistic is the current meta for a reason. its stronger, not a QQ. Again, im just agreeing with the OP on stuff. The meta will change to something new in a month or three.

I run energy boats and take out dakka builds all the time. Feel free to bring any kind of mech you want. I have faith and ability with my 5LL Stalker. It's one steady continuous stream of energy goodness. Just because you can't succeed in anything but a ballistics build doesn't mean my skills are limited in the same way

The "new meta" does not have anything to do with being OP. It has to do with easy. Meta builds gravitate towards the easiest build to use. That doesn't imply other builds aren't effective, it just means you have to use a little more skill and strategy with them

(and by "you" I mean any player in general)

[Devilsfury]

Ill just bring a light with m. guns and chew your back out since you are to slow to turn and shoot me. But yes, I do agree with you Sandpit, skill means everything. They just really need to tone down the cockpit shake and smoke of the ballistics.

[Sandpit]

Devilsfury, on 17 November 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

Ill just bring a light with m. guns and chew your back out since you are to slow to turn and shoot me. But yes, I do agree with you Sandpit, skill means everything. They just really need to tone down the cockpit shake and smoke of the ballistics.

I'm smart enough to put my back against a wall and not give you my back. You're not the firs squirrel I've had to put back in their place lol

[GalaxyBluestar]

Sandpit, on 17 November 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

I'm smart enough to put my back against a wall and not give you my back. You're not the firs squirrel I've had to put back in their place lol

best part is it's the best way to win 3vs1 or at least make them run away and give up because they get legged quicker than they can tackle yours or a torso. you still look like an ***** though.

get back lights!

[Karl Streiger]

Sandpit, on 17 November 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

I run energy boats and take out dakka builds all the time. Feel free to bring any kind of mech you want. I have faith and ability with my 5LL Stalker. It's one steady continuous stream of energy goodness. Just because you can't succeed in anything but a ballistics build doesn't mean my skills are limited in the same way

Sounds like to be caught between a rock and a hard place
The 5 LL Stalker is in NO MEANS a better choice as the current AC Meta.

The funny part is - curren ACs are not unbalanced not really. What makes them unbalanced is the lack of convergence and unlimited ammunition.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 18 November 2013 - 12:01 AM.