60 replies to this topic

[Trauglodyte]

It isn't a Sean Lang copy. Jeez, you idiots run around and see something on youtube and you immediately think that it was their idea. That loadout was used, along with the Gauss Rifle version by a lot of people before he picked it up. Thing is, it isn't that great of a build. Its decent, no doubt, but it turns an extremely slow and fragile mech intended to stand in the background and provide fire support into a slow and more fragile mech that can loler alpha for big numbers while dying incredibly fast cause you're only effective within 270m.

[Ngamok]

sarelk, on 06 November 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

the already way to copied lame Sean Lang build from hell

its annoying in people just copied off of him doing one drop that he did well at.... now its a champion build/mech....

What? No! People were using that build when the BlackJack first came out. Not when Phil was uing it in the stream.

http://mwomercs.com/...appa-urbanmech/

[verybad]

Dear OP, this is One of the whiniest, most ridiculous rants I've ever seen on the internet. You should be proud of yourself!

Not many people would have EVER figured out putting an AC-20 on the BJ, you should definately sue for (c) infringment!

[Waking One]

Trauglodyte, on 07 November 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

It isn't a Sean Lang copy. Jeez, you idiots run around and see something on youtube and you immediately think that it was their idea. That loadout was used, along with the Gauss Rifle version by a lot of people before he picked it up. Thing is, it isn't that great of a build. Its decent, no doubt, but it turns an extremely slow and fragile mech intended to stand in the background and provide fire support into a slow and more fragile mech that can loler alpha for big numbers while dying incredibly fast cause you're only effective within 270m.

Any other fit on it is **** and a waste of a mech slot.

[Deathlike]

Daekar, on 07 November 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

Dear God. That loadout fits on my K2. What did you have to do to that poor BJ to fit enough heatsinks?

I currently have 2 ERLgLas and 1 LgLas on my BJ-1 and I'm loving it. I can't imagine where I would find the tonnage for another laser.

Chain fire. This was all pre-ghost heat (though the LL heat specs hasn't really changed for a while anyhow).

This was during the Mediums vs the World (BJ Edition) when they were released.

The Champion version anyhow is OK, but not how I would build it:
BJ-1

Slower engine in use, but more JJs. Less ammo, but better distribution AND it's a lot more Mordor friendly.

Why make the stock Champion BJ-1 a deathtrap? Only PGI knows why.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 November 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[Odins Fist]

Trauglodyte, on 07 November 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

It isn't a Sean Lang copy. Jeez, you idiots run around and see something on youtube and you immediately think that it was their idea. That loadout was used, along with the Gauss Rifle version by a lot of people before he picked it up. Thing is, it isn't that great of a build. Its decent, no doubt, but it turns an extremely slow and fragile mech intended to stand in the background and provide fire support into a slow and more fragile mech that can loler alpha for big numbers while dying incredibly fast cause you're only effective within 270m.

^ This ^

[Lord Perversor]

15 to 20 mins it's all it took me to create the first BJ with an Xl225 with Ac/20 and 3 med las the day the it was launched ingame.

A match later a friend of mine was sporting a 235Xl with Gauss and 4x meds (his I.S. version of the Shadow cat)


so no no one is copying loadouts, just using common and viable ones.


I know for certain i was one of the very very first persons if not the 1st to even run AND MASTER a 3x Ac2 Dragon 5n.. back in closed beta, even before the DHS was in.

And yet i'm not claiming ppl did copy me with the 3x Ac/2 setups, or the guy who first made the 2x Gauss Cat back in the day or the 2x Ac/20 cat.

[Jack Avery]

Let's put it like this: if you can physically fit an AC20 on a mech, people are going to do it. Lots of people. No copying at all. Just an overabundance of, I don't know, munchkinitis?

[Escef]

I was running 2xLL and 2xAC5 on my K2 a year ago. I don't think everyone that runs twin larges and twin AC5 is copying me. It's just that the build that I've enjoyed and used for a long time is now the "in" thing with the meta. Doesn't stop me from using it. (What stops me from using it is my Project Phoenix toys.)

[New Day]

Trauglodyte, on 07 November 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

It isn't a Sean Lang copy. Jeez, you idiots run around and see something on youtube and you immediately think that it was their idea. That loadout was used, along with the Gauss Rifle version by a lot of people before he picked it up. Thing is, it isn't that great of a build. Its decent, no doubt, but it turns an extremely slow and fragile mech intended to stand in the background and provide fire support into a slow and more fragile mech that can loler alpha for big numbers while dying incredibly fast cause you're only effective within 270m.

nope. I do great in it, one of my best mediums.

[Xeno Phalcon]

The derp is strong with this one.

That aside, I was using a ghetto version long before I seen phil use one, and the BJ-1 is still my most played mech out of all the ones I own (at 334 matches). Hmm fun fact: BJ-1© shows up in my stats page with the BJ-1's stats, dont even own the © version XD

Edited by Xeno Phalcon, 07 November 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Waking One, on 07 November 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Any other fit on it is **** and a waste of a mech slot.

I do just fine with my UAC5 + PPC. I'm there as a QRF with moderate range support.

NamesAreStupid, on 07 November 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

nope. I do great in it, one of my best mediums.

I've seen you in yours before, NAS. I just don't like the idea of something so slow and fragile being at the forefront. One of the reasons why I've never run the Hunchy. Guess you've got to have a certain kamikaze sort of play style in order to enjoy it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Trauglodyte, on 07 November 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

It isn't a Sean Lang copy. Jeez, you idiots run around and see something on youtube and you immediately think that it was their idea. That loadout was used, along with the Gauss Rifle version by a lot of people before he picked it up. Thing is, it isn't that great of a build. Its decent, no doubt, but it turns an extremely slow and fragile mech intended to stand in the background and provide fire support into a slow and more fragile mech that can loler alpha for big numbers while dying incredibly fast cause you're only effective within 270m.

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

If you keep pointing out how limited it is, people might actually try GOOD builds, and it'll be more work for me to kill BJ pilots!!!!

[New Day]

Trauglodyte, on 07 November 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

It isn't a Sean Lang copy. Jeez, you idiots run around and see something on youtube and you immediately think that it was their idea. That loadout was used, along with the Gauss Rifle version by a lot of people before he picked it up. Thing is, it isn't that great of a build. Its decent, no doubt, but it turns an extremely slow and fragile mech intended to stand in the background and provide fire support into a slow and more fragile mech that can loler alpha for big numbers while dying incredibly fast cause you're only effective within 270m.

Quote

In long range engagements, the Blackjack has lackluster performance. Where the 'Mech excels is in close quarters combat because its short ranged weapons, jumping distance of up to one hundred and twenty meters, and heavy armor make it a devastating street fighter.

hmm...

[Voidsinger]

It's an abomination.

Whereas the first Champion mechs weren't that bad, I'd point to two medium builds that are atrocious. The Blackjack, and the Centurion.

Why? Because they lose much of the defining appearance of the original mechs. In the Centurion, the Gunarm, ever-present on all variants is missing. In the case of the Blackjack, they take a symmetrical mech, and turn it massively lopsided.

The trend being promoted by the recent champion mechs is to see a mech as nothing more than a collection of hardpoints and stats.

The soul of Battletech is dying, and it bodes not well for factions.

[Escef]

Voidsinger, on 07 November 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

The soul of Battletech is dying, and it bodes not well for factions.

Wow, is this Magic General over on the WotC boards? I mean, MtG is dying every time a new set comes out, if we believe the hyperbolic BS. And this just sounds like more cries of, "Wah! Wah! Imma fairy princess!"

I'm not impressed. I mean, c'mon, there are folks that said the soul of Battletech died with the clan invasion. Suck it up and drive on.

[Voidsinger]

Escef, on 07 November 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Wow, is this Magic General over on the WotC boards? I mean, MtG is dying every time a new set comes out, if we believe the hyperbolic BS. And this just sounds like more cries of, "Wah! Wah! Imma fairy princess!"

I'm not impressed. I mean, c'mon, there are folks that said the soul of Battletech died with the clan invasion. Suck it up and drive on.

You misunderstand me. I mean the resemblance of this game to anything resembling Battletech. And I extend this to a complete lack of culture within the factions if this continues.

Let us remember that they did not permit jumpjets on mechs which did not originally have them. Limits were placed on ECM availability (without considerations for history, usually on what were already the most potent variants, eg COM-2D, AS-7DDC).

Yet, that same principle is being prostituted out in the name of selling Champion mechs.

For example, the arm of a Blackjack usually contains 7 tons of weapons (around 14.5% of the mechs weight). With the AC/20, that arm is now close to 30% of the mech's mass in weapons, drastically unbalanced. 1 Jumpjet is pure cheesiness to enhance turning (and should due to imbalance turn the mech on it's head when activated). This should require such a drastic internal structure change as to make an entirely new mech.

Why, when there are other mechs designed to actually carry an AC/20? Just look at the Hunchback-Hs being used as AC/20s for a clue. A smaller hunch. Mechs aren't really about appearance or history to people, but a set of stats. Size of the target area is one thing. A Centurion without a weapon in the gun arm. Still a Centurion?

I think the time has come to place weapon size limits on hardpoints, if only to stop insanely ridiculous builds like this (what next, a champion Raven with an AC/20?).

The AC20 meta has risen to the point where every game will usually have 2-4 dual-AC/20 Jaegers.

The true absurdity is that Champion mechs are meant to be marketed more towards new players. Rather than encouraging more balanced builds, what they have done is produce the highest Alpha, absurdly unbalanced, and most exploitive build they can. When I called it an abomination, I meant it. The so-called "Blackjack" champion is a Frankenmech.

[Deathlike]

Voidsinger, on 07 November 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

You misunderstand me. I mean the resemblance of this game to anything resembling Battletech. And I extend this to a complete lack of culture within the factions if this continues.

Let us remember that they did not permit jumpjets on mechs which did not originally have them. Limits were placed on ECM availability (without considerations for history, usually on what were already the most potent variants, eg COM-2D, AS-7DDC).

TBH, there are certain balance considerations made. Although ECM has never been one of them. I don't think PGI has referenced TT/BT standards unless it suits their argument.

Quote

Yet, that same principle is being prostituted out in the name of selling Champion mechs.

I'm not exactly bothered by it. Having Champion mechs is far more preferable to the stock variants... just due to obvious terribad stock designs. Yes, it's to make a profit... I don't see too much shamelessness in this (outside of skewing the original intent of the original suggestion).

Quote

For example, the arm of a Blackjack usually contains 7 tons of weapons (around 14.5% of the mechs weight). With the AC/20, that arm is now close to 30% of the mech's mass in weapons, drastically unbalanced. 1 Jumpjet is pure cheesiness to enhance turning (and should due to imbalance turn the mech on it's head when activated). This should require such a drastic internal structure change as to make an entirely new mech.

Isn't a lot of BT/TT stuff "it just works?" This is a fictional universe after all. Not all real physics are applied here yet.

Quote

Why, when there are other mechs designed to actually carry an AC/20? Just look at the Hunchback-Hs being used as AC/20s for a clue. A smaller hunch. Mechs aren't really about appearance or history to people, but a set of stats. Size of the target area is one thing. A Centurion without a weapon in the gun arm. Still a Centurion?

Well, technically, it's the only way to justify the 3-variant grind pilot efficiencies system... which really needs some actual work. Plus the answer to that question is yes, if desired by the pilot.

Quote

I think the time has come to place weapon size limits on hardpoints, if only to stop insanely ridiculous builds like this (what next, a champion Raven with an AC/20?).

I'm not against this, but people have suggested ideas to that effect, putting categories of weapons and slot sizes or "weapon crit limits" which do a similar thing. I'm sure there are more ideas to be figured out.

Quote

The AC20 meta has risen to the point where every game will usually have 2-4 dual-AC/20 Jaegers.

I think you're kinda overrating the AC20 meta. It's alright, but it isn't actually the preferred AC/ballistic in general higher level play.

Quote

The true absurdity is that Champion mechs are meant to be marketed more towards new players. Rather than encouraging more balanced builds, what they have done is produce the highest Alpha, absurdly unbalanced, and most exploitive build they can. When I called it an abomination, I meant it. The so-called "Blackjack" champion is a Frankenmech.

The "Frankenmech" designation is actually for mech builds that are actually terrible for this game (and I don't mean subjectively bad because you dislike it, but rather bad because it is designed poorly). See most stock builds and really bad designs based on them. What would you honestly have suggested for a BJ-1 that would follow that criteria? Just an overall upgrade of the stock design (which ironically, some people like)? You can't always do that across the board.

Refined stock BJ-1 design:
BJ-1

If you are arguing against the hardpoint system as currently constituted, I don't think you'll have problem finding people agreeing with you. However, designing Champion mechs that follow the rules of the instituted system is not inherently evil or bad... it's just not your preference.

[Lindonius]

sarelk, on 07 November 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

I would also challenge anyone with my BJ builds anytime which I have seen no one use... something I created... I am sure there are others with them... and i aplaud anyone who actually comes up with different and useful builds for themselves... as opposed to copiers etc...

No. You have no competitive unique builds that you and you alone created. Every build that you've thought of has, if it's in any way decent, already been thought of by tens if not hundreds of other players the second the hard points of a mech have been made common knowledge. Do you think someone "invented" the BJ-1 champion? or the 6 PPC stalker? or the Highlander poptart? No.

The mech lab really isn't that diverse I'm afraid.

Edited by Lindonius, 07 November 2013 - 10:45 PM.

[Deathlike]

Lindonius, on 07 November 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

No. You have no competitive unique builds that you and you alone created. Every build that you've thought of has, if it's in any way decent, already been thought of by tens if not hundreds of other players the second the hard points of a mech have been made common knowledge. Do you think someone "invented" the BJ-1 champion? or the 6 PPC stalker? or the Highlander poptart? No.

Well, it may be possible that he hasn't seen that many BJs being fielded (which is generally the case anyhow) to make such an assessment.

Quote

The mech lab really isn't that diverse I'm afraid.

Well, if it were free reign, there would probably be a bit less diversity. What we have is "good enough", but not entirely great as it stands. There should be more options... though particularly engine options (more XL options for medium mechs).