171 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Well, is this still the thinking man's shooter? It's often how Mechwarrior games are described. Is there more thinking involved in MWO? Does it appeal especially to the well-educated, perhaps? Does the game require a bit more diverse skills than so-called twitch shooters?

You could say that the Mechlab is where all the thinking is done, but compared to certain other games where you customize your character's gear, your ship, etc, I wouldn't say it's very complicated.

Thoughts? Also, is MWO more or less a thinking man's shooter compared to earlier Mechwarrior games?

[mike29tw]

Judging by the last six month of changes, I think it's safe to say that MWO is a macro-transaction platform in which they sell you imaginary robots and digital paint jobs with a tacked on arena feature.

[Karl Streiger]

mike29tw, on 08 November 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

Judging by the last six month of changes, I think it's safe to say that MWO is a macro-transaction platform in which they sell you imaginary robots and digital paint jobs with a tacked on arena feature.

Yep a kind of need for speed:
instead of what have you in the garage - Focus with bla bla blub with neon green and bla bla blub
its a kind of what have you in your hangar -> Catapult with Jester Paintjob and shining bright white and gleaming black....

as said - the "battle" is only secondary - its only tech thats count

[Herbstwind]

Although I understand the cynicism, I think the fact that there is no respawn (yet?) in MWO penalizes mindless fragging, which I would consider being the oposite of a "thinking man's shooter".

[CrashieJ]

Alistair Winter, on 08 November 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

Well, is this still the thinking man's shooter? It's often how Mechwarrior games are described. Is there more thinking involved in MWO? Does it appeal especially to the well-educated, perhaps? Does the game require a bit more diverse skills than so-called twitch shooters?

You could say that the Mechlab is where all the thinking is done, but compared to certain other games where you customize your character's gear, your ship, etc, I wouldn't say it's very complicated.

Thoughts? Also, is MWO more or less a thinking man's shooter compared to earlier Mechwarrior games?

not anymore, the maps are specifically designed to make both teams do this, and only this:

[Blue Hymn]

But here's the thing. In most Battletech PC titles - I only have experience from the 3rd Mechwarrior, and then both MechCommanders - there's always an objective to accomplish. Destroy enemy installations here, rendezvous with mobile field base there, capture facility over yonder while coordinating your efforts with a lance/company were things that I felt befitting of Battletech. Killing other mechs and salvaging their equipment was just extra bonus for the mission.

In this case, for MWO, most of the time it's just plain shooting each other, and capture a base (for a long while unless you have cap accelerator), that's it. No escort missions, no extra things to capture that gives advantage (such as turret control bases, gates, sensors for farther detection, etc.), no destructible terrain that can actually impede movement or action, the list goes on. Communication is shot to hell - unless someone tries to use the Lance/Company commander option, and half that time that doesn't work either, if no one pays it any attention.

By default, I do have to say that managing heat while under fire, and finding proper positioning during combat does make MWO a thinking man's shooter...but without something more to spice it up, it might just derail into something that's more grinding and less tactical maneuvering.

[Krivvan]

I can say that the game is far harder to play and understand than most shooters.

[GRiPSViGiL]

I once considered the game to be simple but I am a veteran and a BF tryhard through and through. Most of what we have is simple, to me and I am sure many others. Saying that the average joe has plenty to think about and consider. So I do consider this a thinking man's shooter.

There is plenty of thinking required:

-Chassis choice - Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault
-Paints/camos - Come on you have to decide how good to look right? lol.
-Mech loadout - Weapon strengths/weaknesses, XL or not to XL, Module selection
-Tactical knowledge - Heat and ammo management, Optimal weapon ranges
-Damage mitigation - torso twisting, breaking locks
-Tactics - positioning, knowing the maps
-Situational awareness - Enemy positions, Ticket count/base defense, Target paper doll.


Not everyone considers all of the above when playing the game. Some people just like to run around mindlessly shoot not paying to much mind to loadouts or anything else. There will always be those kind of players. Now for tryhards like myself, we consider all the above aspects of the game but that is why we crave more and are not satisfied with what we have.

I contend that is a itch that will be scratched eventually with the coming of more game modes and CW.

So hang in there, don't let the passed deadlines totally ruin it for you. I think we are gonna get what we want as it goes on.

-Edit for additions requiring thinking.

Edited by GRiPSViGiL, 09 November 2013 - 04:10 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

in the early days closed-open beta scouts had more spotting roles, boats, mixers and others all had viable roles. positioning, cover shutting down were all used regularly. then ecm came becuase 1: people didn't know how to use cover and 2 the server was terrible and the game wasn't optimised so warping and lag were far worse than even the dodgy HSR of today. that was exploited to hell and pgi were going to take months to fix it and in the mean time SSRMs were used to fight lag exploiting light pilots.

ecm was born and powered up to bandaid this and the hardcounters still exsist on it today... it's lead to allsorts of other balance bandaids which has screwed the game up to the mess it is in right now. if only pgi listened to the hundreds of threads and thousands of pages made on these forums through december and janurary about what ecm was going to do. little by little weapons and equipement have been nerfed and hard counted and nerfed and hardcountered again until the game of thinking and stratagy has become random deathballs on an never ending recycle. if another game offered me a cataphract or a stalker to pilot i'd be gone, for now i'm still hoping in vain that pgi will be hitting the undo button hard.

the guys thinking it's tough now should've played earlier on, limited resources {repaire and rearm forced you to think about playstyles and loadouts} and an unstable plateform made the game far more challenging than it is now.

when ign made that phrase "thinking man's shooter" when looking at MWO, they were right, because that's what the game was back in 2012. now it's an anything goes with a meta thrown in. not much thinking to do anymore. it got drowned because it was OP and couldn't be fixed properly. plain and simple.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 08 November 2013 - 02:22 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

In fact, even PGI itself once said that ECM in its current incarnation was overpowered, or something to that effect - that was when it was still in their internal tests.

It seems they never figured out a way to deal gracefully with it, and stuck with the mechanic and added a ton of extra mechanics instead.

The Information Warfare Blog describes a far more interesting game.

I suppose MW:O still is a bit of a thinking man's shooter, but I fear a lot of the thinking needs only to be done once (optimzied build, standard strategy, go), instead of being something you also do actively in combat.

I know this from pen & paper RPGs. A very complex character build system and complex game rules that make character creation and advancement very important. With sufficient system mastery ,you know all the bad build traps and can min/max an optimized character. When it comes to play, you can easily dominate, but often have a pretty repetitive gameplay, because there is a standard sequence of actions to take.
"Heroes Feast, Extended Mass Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance on the Rogue, Magic Circle against Evil on the Fighter, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Greater Magic Weapon, Mage Armor on the Rogue's weapon, Water Breathing"

[OneEyed Jack]

Blue Hymn, on 08 November 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

But here's the thing. In most Battletech PC titles - I only have experience from the 3rd Mechwarrior, and then both MechCommanders - there's always an objective to accomplish. Destroy enemy installations here, rendezvous with mobile field base there, capture facility over yonder while coordinating your efforts with a lance/company were things that I felt befitting of Battletech. Killing other mechs and salvaging their equipment was just extra bonus for the mission.

That's PvE stuff, suitable for single-player or multi-player where everyone is on the same team. Most of it really doesn't work well in a PvP environment where your opponents aren't just going to stand around waiting in their spawn point for you to get around to them. Use all the objectives you want, but if one side wipes out the other side, it's generally going to be considered a win.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I think looking forward PGI would do well to examine those minds on the cutting edge of Tactics and Doctorine to find direction. We are rigidly a second generation warfare game when today we have moved into fourth generation warfare as common place. Let TT be a guiding shadow but show some intererest in what we have learned since the game was born. If you want it to evolve into a thinking mans game you need to start thinking and drop the cookie cutter.

[Vassago Rain]

Krivvan, on 08 November 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

I can say that the game is far harder to play and understand than most shooters.

Because there's no documentation.

[Marvyra]

Well, it's definitely not friendly towards new players. The learning curve is pretty steep. Though the friend I started playing with picked it up quite quickly but he's a smart man, impatient but smart.

You do need a lot of thinking in this game compared to other shooters though. Loadouts take a while to configure and test. You need to almost constantly be watching the map for enemy movement. Communicating with your team about their location and plans. Stick together and take cover from missiles.

It's almost as complex as a MOBA game now that I think about it, both require a huge amount of concentration, focus and skill. Which is why I love playing MWO and MOBA games.

[Joseph Mallan]

Alistair Winter, on 08 November 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

Well, is this still the thinking man's shooter? It's often how Mechwarrior games are described. Is there more thinking involved in MWO? Does it appeal especially to the well-educated, perhaps? Does the game require a bit more diverse skills than so-called twitch shooters?

You could say that the Mechlab is where all the thinking is done, but compared to certain other games where you customize your character's gear, your ship, etc, I wouldn't say it's very complicated.

Thoughts? Also, is MWO more or less a thinking man's shooter compared to earlier Mechwarrior games?

I think:
1) Which way do I want to go?
2) Who do I shoot next?
3) Is he in range?

[Nunspa]

gavilatius, on 08 November 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

not anymore, the maps are specifically designed to make both teams do this, and only this:

then your playing it all wrong....

flanking... you know... it's a thing

[Training Instructor]

I think a bit when I'm in the mechlab, and before the match.

Once it starts though, my vision goes red, the void where my heart used to be is filled with rage, and a voice hammers in my brain, over and over shouting,


BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!
And then I rush to meet my fate,

[Alistair Winter]

Nunspa, on 08 November 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

then your playing it all wrong....
flanking... you know... it's a thing

Quite a few maps seem to be designed to discourage players from flanking.

• Crimson Strait has two main engagement areas. The first is the platform-area, connected to a tunnel and the urban surroundings. The other is a narrow passage between two huge mountains. If you go to the platform-area, you have a number of options. On the other hand, if you go to the narrow passage, and decide to flank, it's a 1,5 km detour. Not exactly inconspicuous. Which do you choose?
  
• The lower team on Alpine basically has two options. Head towards the northern parts of the maps and find a ridge to use as momentary cover en route to the comm tower. Or flank around the huge mountain to the distant southern parts of the map and get out-capped. Which do you chose?
  
• Tourmaline desert has a center area with lots of cover (Theta). You have the option to flank either to the right (higher ground around a crater) or to the left (into the lower valley). Either option leaves you with no cover against an enemy with a superior position. Which do you choose?

[Blurry]

GRiPSViGiL, on 08 November 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

I once considered the game to be simple but I am a veteran and a BF tryhard through and through. Most of what we have is simple, to me and I am sure many others. Saying that the average joe has plenty to think about and consider. So I do consider this a thinking man's shooter.

There is plenty of thinking required:

-Chassis choice
-Paints/camos
-Mech loadout. Module selection.
-Heat and ammo management.
-Tactical positioning, knowing the maps.
-Situational awareness. Enemy positions. Ticket count/base defense. Target paper doll.


Not everyone considers all of the above when playing the game. Some people just like to run around mindlessly shoot not paying to much mind to loadouts or anything else. There will always be those kind of players. Now for tryhards like myself, we consider all the above aspects of the game but that is why we crave more and are not satisfied with what we have.

I contend that is a itch that will be scratched eventually with the coming of more game modes and CW.

So hang in there, don't let the passed deadlines totally ruin it for you. I think we are gonna get what we want as it goes on.

u are over thinking -

get near mech - alpha strike = win

[KinLuu]

Nunspa, on 08 November 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

then your playing it all wrong....

flanking... you know... it's a thing

Yeah, its called getting caught out of position, while dying horribly in a 12 vs. 1.