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Time for some Logic and commone sense


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#1 Krubarax

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:00 AM

Hello fellow Battletech and Mechwarrior fans, old and new!
I have been active on these forums since the launch of the website and recently I have noticed that there are a lot of confusion and illusions about how this game will work.

Now I know I am not a part of the dev team, and I do not claim to have any knowledge at all about their plans for the future, that you do not have (access to)
But I feel that some speculations are running wild, and people are making grand plans for things they want to do, while totally forgetting to use logic and reason.

Because of this, I felt it is time to clarify some things, based on those two things. Logic and common sense.
I am fairly certain that this will cause a never ending flame-war, but I beg the readers of this thread, not to let your feelings run wild and jump to conclusions. Just look at the facts we have been given by the devs, and try to think clearly.

My first point of issue is this thing about "online persistancy"
I have noticed that many people are making grand schemes about this.
They think they will somehow be able to affect the "history" of Battletech.
Many clan haters thinks that they will be able to join this or that faction, to get first access to fighting the clans and be able to salvage clan tech, or some other equally crazy idea.

I will tell you right now, that this will probably never happen.
First of all, as stated in the FAQ on this very website, MWO will follow an offset timeline from the BT
universe.

"Q. What year is MechWarrior® Online™ taking place?

A. MechWarrior® Online™ is running an offset timeline of the BattleTech® Universe. As of this writing it is 2011 and the year is 3048 within the game. In 2012, when the game is launched, it will be 3049."

This (as also obvious from the ISN news flashes) means that historical events in the BT universe, will happen at the same dates corresponding to said timeline.
First contact in the periphery, battle of Trellwan, battle of Alynia, Teniente, Wolcott, Twycross, Tukayyid and so on.
Most likely, players will not be able to take part in these battles, but they will be continue to publish these as ISN news flashes, on this site, and probably in some in-game lobby.

The Logic and reason behind I believe this is simple.
If you (for example) chose the Free Rasalhague Republic as your faction, to get first hand to fight the clans, and the game mechanics supported this - this would mean a very many things, following that line of thought.
For example. It would mean that players that chose the Capellan Comfederation or Free Worlds League, would get little or none at all, chance to fight the clans, until Operation Bulldog/Serpent. Unless you succeeded in stopping it completely.

By following the same logic, it also means that you would never be able to fight togeather with a friend who chose a different faction.
Let me play with an imaginary example.
Say for instance that me and my brother wanted to play different houses.
I chose Federated Suns - my brother chose Capellan comfederation.

Following the above logic, we would never ever be able to drop together.
We would be *forced* to fight eachother.
FedSuns players would fight together with Fedsuns and CapCom with CapCom, effectively splitting friends who wants to play together.

If you think that you could somehow change the history of BT by "stopping the clan invasion"
What would happen next?
Would some Lone Wolf drop on Tharkad and kill Katherine Steiner-Davion and stop the fedcom civil war?
Could a company of Marik Mechs drop on Luthien, kill Theodore Kurita and take the Draconis Combine?

I mean seriously dudes, time to hit the break on your imagination here.
I quote the FAQ:

"Q. Will MechWarrior® Online™ have any online persistency?<a name="28">

A. Yes, this is where our plan for the Inner Sphere comes into play. All players in Merc Corps will be fighting for control over various border planets. The state of these planets is persistent."

border planets folks.
And also, this will probably be done by special events.

The devs have told us that you will be able to create a friend-list and drop together in a game.
This clearly means that your faction allegiance will mean *nothing*
You will have lyrans, davions, kuritans, rasalhagians, Mariks and capellans on your team, and you will fight people with the same faction allegiance as yours.
Unless you are telling me that a Krutian player will be unable to invite a Davion player to his friendslist and drop with him?
Common sense folks.

My guess is that the entire system will be a lot like Battlefield.
You have a friend-list, create a party, and then drop into a game server.
No more, no less.

Difference being that in special events, where you can take part in a border-world dispute, you would drop with others from your faction.

Another example of gameplay like this is EvE online.
You get to chose a race.
Amarr have since long fought the Minmatar
And Caldari are no friend of Gallente.
But this is all background story.
There is no stopping you as a Caldari player to fight other caldari and be best friends with a Gallente player.

As for all these arguments about the clans being too powerfull and they do not buy their mechs with C-bills and they must follow zellbrigen for balance and so on and so on.
Take it easy.
The official clan invasions will probably only be ISN news, and the clans will probably only be playable *after* tukayyid.
Why the heck do I presume this, you say?
Well - Logic and Common sense.
We have already clarified that you will most likely not be able to affect history in such profound ways as to stopping the invasion or taking Atreus from Thomas Marik's hands or saving the city of Edo from orbital bombardment.
We have also, using Logic, come to the conclusion that fighting in the actual invasion would mean unfairness to Liao and Marik players, as they did not send any units to the front.

So, continuing to keep your head cool, you can understand that the only way NOT to make the clans to powerful, is by giving ALL factions access to clan tech. Just as they have made no IS house any more powerful than the other (Imagine the FRR being forced to fight the entire fedcom - lol)
Just as the devs have already said, no mech will be faction exclusive. Every faction will have access to any chassis, included in the game. But at different pricing.
First after tukayyid will border-fights with the clans begin, and first after tukayyid would clan-tech begin to surface in units and markets in the Inner Sphere.

This probably means that clan-players will have access to Clan tech, probably much cheaper than IS-players would. Sure.
But for balancing factor, they will probably be a lot more expensive to buy, customize and maintan, than the average IS player pays for his/her ride, thus Clan players will have slower progression.
Also, IS chassis will be even more expensive, *forcing* the Clan player to use clan chassis, and preventing them from buying a "cheap" IS-mech to "grind" in, to buy the juicy Clan Mech faster.

This would mean that Clan-tech will be quite expensive for IS-players, but they progress faster and basically earn more money and earn money faster.
And for clan currency.
Yes it is true that Clanners do not "buy" their mechs.
rename "C-bills" to "Honor points" -problem solved.
This is a Mech Simulator, not a RPG-game.

So, to conclude this ELEPHANT-post.
Other players may chose any faction they want and they will fight with and against players from any and all factions.
You will, in the future, be fighting with and against, players from the clans, house Kurita, FRR, Liao, Davion, Steiner and Marik.
You will not be able to save Melissa Steiner from the bomb-blast that killed her.
You will not be able to take Sian from Romano Liao and you will not be able to kill Ulric Kerensky or in any other way affect key points in BT history.

Matchmaking and gameplay on open servers will function much like Battlefield 3, where you join an open server with your friends, no matter what faction they happened to chose, and fight with the opposing team.
You will have access to any and all tech, albeit at a different price than your friends, if they chose a different faction, and there will probably be special "faction exclusive" events for border-world disputes.

Now have fun and enjoy the game, while I put on my flame-protection.

[Edited for spelling]

Edited by GB Krubarax, 15 June 2012 - 09:58 AM.


#2 Xantars

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:12 AM

well if things go like you say then it should be 2+ years before the clan are playable and by then ill have a few billion c-bills to buy clan tech with if bother to buy any. AS ill be grinding everyday on my money maker to get ready for the day they come so i can feild the best mech possible to push them back out of stiner space

#3 Maxxinator

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:15 AM

You spelt Common sense wrong ;) The overall spelling was bad, though readable. I appreciate you clarifying this for some people. But just admit it, speculation is fun. There is nothing wrong with it as speculation will always happen whether or not you want it to.

Edited by Maxxinator, 15 June 2012 - 09:27 AM.


#4 Krubarax

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:21 AM

View PostXantars, on 15 June 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

well if things go like you say then it should be 2+ years before the clan are playable and by then ill have a few billion c-bills to buy clan tech with if bother to buy any. AS ill be grinding everyday on my money maker to get ready for the day they come so i can feild the best mech possible to push them back out of stiner space


I am sure the game-mecanics wont make this impossible.
But remember that maintenance like ammo and repairs will cost too, and in 2+ years, there will probably be quite a lot mechs included in the game that you would like to buy.

Not many people will be likely to grind in their starting mech for two years, without tinkering in the mechlab with it or buying new chassis.

View PostMaxxinator, on 15 June 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

You spelt Common sense wrong :blink:


Fixed. Thx for letting me know ;)

#5 Roland

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:21 AM

View PostMaxxinator, on 15 June 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

You spelt Common sense wrong ;)

You spelled spelled wrong.

#6 Oppi

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:23 AM

Quote

The devs have told us that you will be able to create a friend-list and drop togeather in a game.
This clearly means that your faction allegiance will mean *nothing*
You will have lyrans, davions, kuritans, rasalhagians, Mariks and capellans on your team, and you will fight people with the same faction allegiance as yours.
Unless you are telling me that a Krutian player wille be unable to invite a Davion player to his friendslist and drop with him?
Common sence folks.


Is, say, a human player in World of Warcraft able to invite an Orc into his friend list and fight at his side in a PvP Battle ? No, he is not. Is this deemed unfair oder strange by any player ? I think it isn't. I don't really see your point here. Of course battles will be faction A vs faction B (or perhaps there might be multi-team battles so there would also be factions C, D and/or E) with mercs and lone wolfs able to augment any team they wish. If you want to be able to play alongside each and every one of your buddies, go loner/merc or join the same (or an allied ?) faction as them.

Dev Blog 1 :

Quote

Faction Worlds – Are fought over by Faction players. These planets buffer core and border worlds, and do not play a significant role in major historical events. Rewards for controlling these planets are directly linked to global bonuses and abilities associated with a player’s Faction.


How'd that work if players of all factions were mixed up in the same team ?

Also it was stated that high ranked faction players might become able to influence which worlds their faction would fight on. How'd that work out without faction exclusive teams ?

I don't entirely rule out the possibility of such "multi cultural teams", but they will most certainly not be the norm (and it'd really s*ck if they were).


I agree to everything else you posted though ;)

Edited by Oppi, 15 June 2012 - 09:26 AM.


#7 Xantars

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:26 AM

Haha My founders Jenner is my mech of choice ill be in it 75% of the time earning big bucks for whem the put out one of the reseen mechs i want... but untill then ill be in my jenner

the only way you ever seen davion, stiner, and kurtia on the same side would be to fight the clanners

#8 Krubarax

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:29 AM

View PostOppi, on 15 June 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:


Is, say, a human player in World of Warcraft able to invite an Orc into his friend list and fight at his side in a PvP Battle ? No, he is not. Is this deemed unfair oder strange by any player ? I think it isn't. I don't really see your point here. Of course battles will be faction A vs faction B (or perhaps there might be multi-team battles so there would also be factions C, D and/or E) with mercs and lone wolfs able to augment any team they wish. If you want to be able to play alongside each and every one of your buddies, go loner/merc or join the same (or an allied ?) faction as them.

Dev Blog 1 :


How'd that work if players of all factions were mixed up in the same team ?

Also it was stated that high ranked faction players might become able to influence which worlds their faction would fight on. How'd that work out without faction exclusive teams ?

I don't entirely rule out the possibility of such "multi cultural teams", but they will most certainly not be the norm.


I agree to everything else you posted though ;)


Your first point is valid, though WoW has two factions, while MWO currently have seven, and in the future as many as maybe 15?
It is far simpler for you and your friends to decide between A or B, than for a 10 friends to agree on one out of 10 different factions.

And for your second comment, I in a rather rude fashion, quote myself:

View PostGB Krubarax, on 15 June 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

and there will probably be special "faction exclusive" events for border-world disputes


To clarify this: I mean that a border world dispute between FedSuns and Draconis Combine, will only be available for FedSun and Drac players, while a Border Dispute battle between Marik and Liao would only include units from those factions.
In other words, these will not be "open servers" but as I said, faction exclusive events.

Edited by GB Krubarax, 15 June 2012 - 09:34 AM.


#9 Vasces Diablo

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:32 AM

Why can't you just let us dream!!!! ;)

#10 Forscythe

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:32 AM

If it is anything like how MPBT handled it say you are on a border with the Cappellans and Kurita and you are Davion. You can drop with Kurita or Cappellans depending on who you want to fight. I would imagine you would not want too though, for fear of being team killed or used as a sacrifice. For the sake of unity in battle I would rather drop with my own faction than with an opposing faction unless I knew I could trust the faction I drop with. Dropping with every faction on the board seems far fetching and would make this game less than the MMO they wish to make the game and more like a FPS where faction banners are nothing more than a cool logo I can paint on my mech.

#11 WardenWolf

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:35 AM

I really hope that most battles are faction vs faction. Friends should stick together on the same side of the wars, or go merc / lone wolf (where I would assume they could fill in on any side).

I could also see, *maybe*, being allowed to join up in a battle where neither 'side' was your faction. You wouldn't gain any rank or faction-specific rewards, of course, but that might allow for a little more flexibility for folks with friends who side with other groups. You should *never* be able to fight against your own faction, though; that just breaks too much of the point of picking sides to me.

#12 Chunkymonkey

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:38 AM

Here Here ;)


I still like my fantasy's of St Ives Conquering the Capellen Confederation by itself :blink:

#13 Oppi

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:39 AM

Quote

Your first point is valid, though WoW has two factions, while MOW currently have seven, and in the future as many as maybe 15?
It is far simpler for you and your friends to decide between A or B, than for a 10 friends to agree on one ut of 10 different factions.


That may be true, but MWO will, unlike WoW, Battlestar Galactica Online or any similar "faction vs faction" styled games, feature the same mechs, weapons and tools for every single one of those factions (as you stated correctly), so for non-roleplayers it won't be a hard decision (in fact they only have to decide "merc or house" and roll a die if they want to play for a house to decide which one), and roleplayers wouldn't want mixed teams because it'd send all lore down the sewer.

Quote

and there will probably be special "faction exclusive" events for border-world disputes


That sure is possible, but I dont think it's likely. It would lead to a quite static environment with the devs deciding when a world changes (or is able to change) owners, and I think that's not the idea.

#14 Krubarax

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:40 AM

I agree, it would.
But I still believe this is how the mechanics will work.

It would be a b iatch, for 23 players to sit around and wait for the last marik to join to make it an even 12 vs 12.

The way around this problem though, which I believe will happen in practice, and encuraged by the devs, is that Faction players joins togeather.
Remember, if you are 12-buddies with the steiner-faction, joining a server togeather in a party, you have basicly made sure at least one team in 100% steiner.

there is nothing to stop the other team from being davion, though.

Edit: I realize its quite unlcear as to what I actually responded to here ;)

it was this:

View PostWardenWolf, on 15 June 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:


Edited by GB Krubarax, 15 June 2012 - 09:42 AM.


#15 Krubarax

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:44 AM

Well
really - there could literally be thousands of worlds available alongisde all the borders. and they could change hands on a weekly basis.
Or even dayly.

Every Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday, for example, at 21:00 - there is faction war.
Join this or that server to participate for this or that world.

easy as pie

Edited by GB Krubarax, 15 June 2012 - 09:44 AM.


#16 Oppi

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:44 AM

Quote

It would be a b iatch, for 23 players to sit around and wait for the last marik to join to make it an even 12 vs 12.


Well, that's what mercs are for. And with merc corps able to hold planets on their own I think there will be quite a lot of them. (And if I got it right, there will be no guilds within house military besides the dev controlled house units you can join by earning loyalty points, so everyone who wants to play in a guild with have to go merc)

Quote

Every Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday, for example, at 21:00 - there is faction war.


So we need a different set of servers for every time zone ? And casual gamers who only play on Mondays and Fridays between 16 and 18 pm can never compete in a planetary invasion for their faction ?

I still don't think that's a convenient way of doing things ;)

Edited by Oppi, 15 June 2012 - 09:47 AM.


#17 Chunkymonkey

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:46 AM

Or lonewolfs, the point of being a wolf is that you get in to games faster, Mercs get to play with freinds and have cash bonuses, and the houses get discounts.

#18 Promptus

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:51 AM

Logic.

And common sense.

In forums.

Posted Image

I applaud your efforts. Good luck.

#19 Hanged Man

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:57 AM

All of this is based on huge assumptions and fallacies. Why is it that no thread with 'common sense' in the title includes any?

We'll find out when we find out.

#20 GHQCommander

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 10:02 AM

Good post. Just yesterday I was saying in a thread that some people are going to get a big surprise about how this will game will work. There are some basic principles that can be figured out from what we know as fact already. Principles that go against some of the wild imaginations I've been reading about :ph34r:

"I mean seriously dudes, time to hit the break on your imagination here."

That is what it comes down to isn't it. Just go burst their buble why don't you :D





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