427 replies to this topic

[Spiff]

IMO one of the biggest drawbacks of the game is that fact that everyone tends to run really large or really small mechs. The lack of any meaningful role warfare means that there is really no incentive for players to run medium mechs.

Instead you end up with players picking their mech based on play style. Those who prefer firepower and armor pick a larger mech while those that prefer to use speed as armor pick a smaller one. Medium mechs tend to be targets for both.

Meanwhile, we have the ongoing complaints about the c-bill nerf and the lack of meaningful rewards for matches.

One quick fix to both problems would be to scale rewards based on the type of mech you pick. If you want to encourage folks to run more mediums, then buff the c-bill and experience reward for mediums by 50%.

This gives players a good way to make c-bills quickly, encourages them to pilot something other than victors and spiders, and doesn't require all the complex changes that role warfare would involve.

You could even tie the reward to the frequency with which the mech is used. So if commandos aren't used all that much, they get an automatic buff to rewards. If their usage increases, the buff decreases and shifts to some other chassis that isn't used all that often.

[LiGhtningFF13]

Put CBill bonus on every medium Mech or special loyality bonus now! Another possibility would be an increase of armor.

[Lefty Lucy]

You can balance the game based on rewards, especially if you still get a much larger reward for winning the match, getting more kills/assists, etc. +50% of 0 is still 0.

Because of the way TT hit modifiers don't translate into a real-time game with precision aiming, and because of the legacy construction system from Battletech, mediums will never be able to compete with other mech classes that are heavier or lighter in straight fighting or scouting capability.

They had an opportunity to use the pilot lab to differentiate mech classes, but have dropped that ball like it's made out of teflon-coated lead.

I guess the natural question that arises is: why is it important to the game that more players play medium mechs?

[Deathlike]

Increasing rewards doesn't make people want to go take a medium mech when there are better choices available. If the choices are more or less similar, then incenitivizing underused chassis becomes more palatable.

In the absence of proper role warfare.. or just proper balance between mediums, you need to make them consistently viable in 12-mans or at least viable to take under certain conditions. PUG matches are not the true test of "success". The current hitboxes of the Kintaro at least make them somewhat viable at the moment, as their previous iteration made them pinatas.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 October 2013 - 10:24 AM.

[Bilbo]

Without proper weight limits, there is no way to get someone to play a medium unless that is just what they want to run. Even then, some would probably rather wait to play than play the lighter mech.

[Vassago Rain]

For starters, not scaling them like assault mechs,

[LiGhtningFF13]

Deathlike, on 09 October 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Increasing rewards doesn't make people want to go take a medium mech.

In the absence of proper role warfare.. or just proper balance between mediums, you need to make them consistently viable in 12-mans. PUG matches are not the true test of "success".

Yea right, and if so it has to last longer to get people run mediums. But in my view its pretty much balanced or not?!

[Tezcatli]

I pretty much haven't played in days because of the grind. As much as I enjoyed my Blackjacks. I just felt tired of it.

What we need is tighter tonnage limits. And mediums mechs that aren't as tall or as big as their Assault counterparts. It's pretty much why I like the Blackjack. It has a smaller profile. Don't even like my Yen Lo as much as my Blackjack.

Not sure that I'd feel like playing if they added a c-bill bonus to mediums. But it wouldn't hurt. Mostly now I'm just holding back until something interesting gets added to the game.

[Ghogiel]

There isn't a way to make mediums really as powerful as either lights or heavier mechs without <Insert artificial balancing mechanic here>

Extra modules, higher engine caps, etc.

Edited by Ghogiel, 09 October 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[Roland]

Make medium mechs not suck so bad.

Mediums should be smaller than heavy mechs. The biggest medium should be smaller than the smallest heavy. Mech tonnage should translate DIRECTLY into mech volume.

Yeah, I understand that this may not be how it would be in the real world. I DO NOT GIVE A ****.

Gameplay trumps realism. You need to have mech volume and tonnage directly correlated, or else stuff doesn't work right.

[oldradagast]

Vassago Rain, on 09 October 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

For starters, not scaling them like assault mechs,

Bingo.

If half the medium mechs (Centurion, Kintaro, Trebuchet) were not the same size and scale as 80+ ton assault mechs, maybe they wouldn't die so fast and people might actually play them. The ONLY reason the Centurion sees play is thanks to the wonky damage transfer mechanics as damage is reduced through lost arms and lost side torsos. As for Trenchbuckets and Kintaros, they rarely see play. It's absurd, really - a Centurion is nearly the same size as a Victor, and that just makes no sense at all.

The Quickdraw suffers from similar problems, but other heavies are well represented and scaled, so the loss of 1 chassis doesn't kill the lineup... unlike mediums...

Edited by oldradagast, 09 October 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[Shadey99]

Mediums generally need to be smaller (The Cicada should be roughly the size of a Raven and except for the Hunchie and BJ all the other mediums need a shrink as well)... That is step 1 of the medium fix.

Fixing the heat system for MWO is step 2. Quite a few medium mechs rely heavily on energy weapons, yet ballistics are almost always better due to generally lower heat generation. Outside of Kintaro streak builds the most common mediums are hunchies, BJs, and Cents all of which are ballistics with energy backup.

Making the Mediums nearly as agile as the lights is step 3. Mediums should be more like lights than heavies. Acceleration should be good, deceleration should be good, and so should turning.

These three things would greatly help mediums. 4th would be some form of role warfare so you could tailor a mech to a specific role that the game would reward.

[PEEFsmash]

Stop making them absurdly large. That's how.

The Stalker, an Assault mech, is actually a relatively small target with a very protective body shape and small CT. The Cataphract has a short, compact body with highly protective arms. Meanwhile, Medium mechs are freaking goliaths with what I can only imagine are hollow and air-filled bodies that are easily hit. They weigh less, they can't mount the same weapons, they don't move that fast, and they have half the armor of Heavies. The Shadowhawk seems to be the next iteration of the "Marshmallow Man Syndrome" the developers have decided to impose on every medium mech, therefore making what could be quality mechs into p*ss-poor hot air balloons.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 09 October 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

The lore claims that the mediums are the "work horse". How do you translate that into a game without forcing teams to have 50 % of their team consists of mediums by some artifiical restrictions?

I'd say role warfare and modules might be a way to do it.

1) Give Mediums 1-2 extra module slots.
2) Add some new useful and desirable modules and buff existing ones. Ideally not consumable ones, because no one wants to play a mech that forces him to earn less money if he uses its features. (Otherwise I'd say that making ARtillery or Air Strike worthwhile could help, but it won't if it costs that much C-Bills.)
Maybe add some versions of modules that only Mediums can carry. That is making them the "work horse" of mech warfare - they get all the special abilities.
You can do this for all weight classes, you just have to take care that the medium abilties are particularly broad and they can carry multiple of these roles at one.


Of course, you could just increase all engine ratings, but then you're just creating 50 ton Light Mechs that then will replace the 35 ton light mechs. That's just shifting the problem.

I agree with lowering the model size, however. I just don't think we need every medium to be a fast runner. Unless we really can't come up with something better, and if we can still preserve the usefulness of lights.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 09 October 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[Zyllos]

The huge differences between mech sizes and armor points wouldn't be so bad if the armor system was modified to take into account that we can aim, have pin point convergence, and no spreading of damage with many direct fire weapons.

The time it took to destroy mechs in the TT is massively distorted when looking at MWO due to Arm/Leg armor not being factored into the equation due to aiming.

[Snowcrow]

Tonnage limits will make mediums popular. The devs are working on it.

[Ghogiel]

Roland, on 09 October 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Mech tonnage should translate DIRECTLY into mech volume.

yeah no.

If so people can stop complaining about the Cent being too large and the STK being small then. And while we are at it we can make the spider and jenner 2-3 times larger than they are.

[Lefty Lucy]

Snowcrow, on 09 October 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Tonnage limits will make mediums popular. The devs are working on it.

Nope. People will just take more lights.

[Deathlike]

PEEFsmash, on 09 October 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Stop making them absurdly large. That's how.

The Stalker, an Assault mech, is actually a relatively small target with a very protective body shape and small CT. The Cataphract has a short, compact body with highly protective arms. Meanwhile, Medium mechs are freaking goliaths with what I can only imagine are hollow and air-filled bodies that are easily hit. They weigh less, they can't mount the same weapons, they don't move that fast, and they have half the armor of Heavies. The Shadowhawk seems to be the next iteration of the "Marshmallow Man Syndrome" the developers have decided to impose on every medium mech, therefore making what could be quality mechs into p*ss-poor hot air balloons.

[Vodrin Thales]

Ghogiel, on 09 October 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

yeah no.

If so people can stop complaining about the Cent being too large and the STK being small then. And while we are at it we can make the spider and jenner 2-3 times larger than they are.

Why on earth would you make light mechs larger? They are not terribly survivable now, and when hit detection becomes better (an inevitable outcome in my opinion) they will be unplayable. Mediums do need to be smaller. It would definitely help them be more viable. Additional module slots for mediums would also be a good idea.