118 replies to this topic

[Tor6]

PGI balance happened!

[Profiteer]

This game has lasers? LOL at anyone using those


But seriously, they tried to balance weapons around heat instead of just using hard-point limitations.

Lasers run hot + have a 2 max for ghost heat + spread damage over 1 second = rubbish.

Most people can't even aim at a particular section of a mech, let alone hold that aim for a full second. So while the alpha numbers look good for lasers, in reality most people are lucky to be doing half that damage each shot. (and not even to the same mech section.)


PPC + ACs = victory!

[MischiefSC]

Roadbeer, on 09 November 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Not entirely wrong, but I disagree with the last sentence.

It's not that AC is broken, it's that the beam/missile equivalent aren't on par with it (nor should they be, read on). It's like when poptarting was the FOTM, it wasn't because PPC/Gauss were fawsome, it's because their natural counter was nerfed into the ground. But that doesn't even explain what's going on here.

The problem is that people look at the weapons systems as Rock, Paper, Scissors.. that's wrongheaded thinking. Each type of weapon has it's place, and this is how it breaks down.

Ballistics = Direct Damage
Energy = Damage Over Time
Missiles = Area of Effect.

In a toe to toe fight, like you described, straight direct damage will always win. This doesn't have as much to do with pinpoint damage as it has to do with the mechanics of the system. DD is designed to put out massive damage, but it has the limitation of low ammo/ton. DoT is "Death by 1,000 cuts", it won't last in a direct fight, but after the DD ammo is gone, the DoT of energy weapons keep on going.

Missiles, in the same situation would, on the paper doll, have appeared to be even less effective because where your CT would be cored out, technically you did vastly more damage, but it's spread over a wide area of your opponent, so it "looks" like you did nothing.

This is the problem with statistics like DPS, because they look at it as If X weapon was fired at one specific area, and scored a direct hit, it will do Y amount of damage and all of this is done in a vacuum.

The issue though is that not all mechs carry ballistic hardpoints and if the Ballistic>Lasers>Missiles concept was true then mechs with the best ballistic layouts (Ilya, Jager, Highlander, Victor) would automatically be superior which...

Hey, wait.

The problem with this is it throttles variety. Gives lasers a buff, shorten their beam time. Any mech without ballistic options either needs a heat dissipation buff or an engine cap buff to let it compete.

Otherwise you end up with the situation we have now where whole swaths of mechs and chassis are inherently inferior and only get played because you want to unlock 2xbasics and elites on the model that isn't terrible. That's not a good design concept.

First, cut all beam durations in half. Regular lasers 0.50 and pulse 0.30.

Then cut pulse laser cooldown to LPL - 2.5, MPL- 1.5, SPL 0.75. This gives you energy equivs to ballistics. So an LPL is like an AC10 but with shorter range, way more heat but no ammo dependence, lighter and less crit spaces but with a 0.30 DOT effect - not huge but significant and offsets the aiming risk on ballistics. Also keep in mind the heat stays the same - a pulse-dependent built is going to run about as well as an ERPPC boat. An AC10 is 1.2 heat per second, an LPL 3.4 with the shorter cooldown.

This would let energy builds have a whole different but fully competitive flavor vs AC boats. AC boats are still cooler, better range, damage still pinpoint. The AC + PPC build is still totally viable and a good sniper.

A mixed pulse/regular laser boat though is a bundle of short range destruction, almost like the old splatcats just hotter. Smart option is a mix of pulse and regular lasers to give better heat management and the *potential* to heat yourself up with the pulse if the opportunity to exploit an advantage presents itself.

What other weapons do we have that don't favor just mashing the button down? Pulse lasers as capable of faster fire but mech-roasting heat adds a solid and viable dynamic that would reward trigger discipline and provide a tactically valid alternative to dakka first, poor buggers grinding losses in an energy boat second, feast/famine LRM boats third, glutton for punishment and disappointment SRM boats last.

[Roadbeer]

MischiefSC, on 09 November 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

The issue though is that not all mechs carry ballistic hardpoints and if the Ballistic>Lasers>Missiles concept was true then mechs with the best ballistic layouts (Ilya, Jager, Highlander, Victor) would automatically be superior which...

I kind of disagree with this analogy, because it once again predicates on the whole Direct Damage in a vacuum. The problem isn't the weapon systems, the problem is that when you look at pure numbers then apply a Rock'em Sock'em combat mentality, of course the Ballistics win.
Look at the maps people hate, it's usually the ones that they burn ammo into a rock formation, or the ones they get melted down on while trying to get to a Rock'em Sock'em Robot fight.

MischiefSC, on 09 November 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

The problem with this is it throttles variety. Gives lasers a buff, shorten their beam time. Any mech without ballistic options either needs a heat dissipation buff or an engine cap buff to let it compete.

Otherwise you end up with the situation we have now where whole swaths of mechs and chassis are inherently inferior and only get played because you want to unlock 2xbasics and elites on the model that isn't terrible. That's not a good design concept.

YMMV, I have very few mechs that I use ballistics on, and I do just fine with my epeen. Just because the meta-humping 'competitive' scene says it's so, doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

MischiefSC, on 09 November 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

First, cut all beam durations in half. Regular lasers 0.50 and pulse 0.30.

Then cut pulse laser cooldown to LPL - 2.5, MPL- 1.5, SPL 0.75. This gives you energy equivs to ballistics. So an LPL is like an AC10 but with shorter range, way more heat but no ammo dependence, lighter and less crit spaces but with a 0.30 DOT effect - not huge but significant and offsets the aiming risk on ballistics. Also keep in mind the heat stays the same - a pulse-dependent built is going to run about as well as an ERPPC boat. An AC10 is 1.2 heat per second, an LPL 3.4 with the shorter cooldown.

This would let energy builds have a whole different but fully competitive flavor vs AC boats. AC boats are still cooler, better range, damage still pinpoint. The AC + PPC build is still totally viable and a good sniper.

A mixed pulse/regular laser boat though is a bundle of short range destruction, almost like the old splatcats just hotter. Smart option is a mix of pulse and regular lasers to give better heat management and the *potential* to heat yourself up with the pulse if the opportunity to exploit an advantage presents itself.

What other weapons do we have that don't favor just mashing the button down? Pulse lasers as capable of faster fire but mech-roasting heat adds a solid and viable dynamic that would reward trigger discipline and provide a tactically valid alternative to dakka first, poor buggers grinding losses in an energy boat second, feast/famine LRM boats third, glutton for punishment and disappointment SRM boats last.

On paper, every one of your suggestions seems reasonable. The numbers may be a little TOO drastic, and I think I'd be happy with your proposals cut in half. But I'm completely with you that some of these changes would make things BETTER. I just don't see the 'problems' with Energy weapons as drastic as some are making them out to be. But on the whole, I think your suggestion is probably the most realistic I've seen in a while.

[Kojin]

Well this went off on one...

I think I'll put my pondering about my current laser damages down to HSR being a bit naff currently as Kasma and RandomLurker have suggested.

I do, however, agree that lasers beam duration might need reducing a smidge. My reasoning is simply down to average speeds of mechs seemingly becoming faster and jumpjets becoming ever more popular.

[Tahribator]

I don't think we should buff the lasers to compete with AC's, rather AC's should be brought to laser/missile levels.

Nerf the AC's with them having a similiar projectile like in the tabletop, "a hail of slugs" rather than a one big bullet. Kind of LBX10, but slugs don't come out all at once, they have a "duration" as they come out of your mech. AC's become damage spread weapons too, forums will be lit by torches, but the overall quality of the gameplay will improve. Only pinpoint weapons will be Gauss and PPC, which already have severe penalties for usage.

Suddenly ER lasers/PPC/LRM's become the long range weapons of choice and AC's are back to their duty as a brawler weapon, not a sniper.

PS: Watch the Annihilator in this video to get an idea of what I'm suggesting.

Edited by Tahribator, 09 November 2013 - 02:41 PM.

[Pjwned]

Making pulse lasers not suck so much would be a decent solution.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Tahribator, on 09 November 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

I don't think we should buff the lasers to compete with AC's, rather AC's should be brought to laser/missile levels.

Nerf the AC's with them having a similiar projectile like in the tabletop, "a hail of slugs" rather than a one big bullet. Kind of LBX10, but slugs don't come out all at once, they have a "duration" as they come out of your mech. AC's become damage spread weapons too, forums will be lit by torches, but the overall quality of the gameplay will improve. Only pinpoint weapons will be Gauss and PPC, which already have severe penalties for usage.

Suddenly ER lasers/PPC/LRM's become the long range weapons of choice and AC's are back to their duty as a brawler weapon, not a sniper.

PS: Watch the Annihilator in this video to get an idea of what I'm suggesting.

I broke down and built a Uac5 yeager just so I could get xp. Never was into boating builds but now its a must if your a pug. Something soes seem wrong with the lasers and hit registration though.

Pjwned, on 09 November 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

Making pulse lasers not suck so much would be a decent solution.

Agreed

[JigglyMoobs]

Lasers are ineffective due to HSR and latency issues. It has nothing to do with duration except that damage over time exacerbates hit detection. I've had multiple games when perfectly aimed laser shots (ie reticle locked on a single component) do much less than expected damage. What's happening is that in reality the game thinks your reticle is moving all over the mech when in fact it looks to you like it's smooth and locked.

If anyone has ever played quake live, try the lightning gun with truelightning set to 0. You'll see the difference between where you think you're aiming a hitscan, damage over time weapon and where the server thinks you are aiming, with even just a little bit of latency.

For MWO, I think there might be a way to solve this: use a centroid estimation system to estimate the centerpoint of the player's aim after a brief sampling period, say, 100 ms. This would have never worked for Quake because movement was so much faster and there was no acceleration or deceleration (ie movement vectors change instantaneously), but for mwo, since mechs are moving slower, and have momentum, maybe it can work.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 09 November 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

JigglyMoobs, on 09 November 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

Lasers are ineffective due to HSR and latency issues. It has nothing to do with duration except that damage over time exacerbates hit detection. I've had multiple games when perfectly aimed laser shots (ie reticle locked on a single component) do much less than expected damage. What's happening is that in reality the game thinks your reticle is moving all over the mech when in fact it looks to you like it's smooth and locked.

If anyone has ever played quake live, try the lightning gun with truelightning set to 0. You'll see the difference between where you think you're aiming a hitscan, damage over time weapon and where the server thinks you are aiming, with even just a little bit of latency.

For MWO, I think there might be a way to solve this: use a centroid estimation system to estimate the centerpoint of the player's aim after a brief sampling period, say, 100 ms. This would have never worked for Quake because movement was so much faster and there was no acceleration or deceleration (ie movement vectors change instantaneously), but for mwo, since mechs are moving slower, and have momentum, maybe it can work.

Good idea but thinking PGI will not want to take Devs off of putting paint on a new pig they can sell to do it.

[keith]

Mudhutwarrior, on 09 November 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Good idea but thinking PGI will not want to take Devs off of putting paint on a new pig they can sell to do it.

not so much taking ppl off of paint. its hiring proper balance devs, or having stuff done right the first time around. what sort of balance dev would think orion hitboxes were okay... rush jobs are ba

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

RacerX, on 09 November 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

LRMs are taking out mechs in droves.

What, really?

I should start a new account and test that.

[MischiefSC]

Roadbeer, on 09 November 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

I kind of disagree with this analogy, because it once again predicates on the whole Direct Damage in a vacuum. The problem isn't the weapon systems, the problem is that when you look at pure numbers then apply a Rock'em Sock'em combat mentality, of course the Ballistics win.
Look at the maps people hate, it's usually the ones that they burn ammo into a rock formation, or the ones they get melted down on while trying to get to a Rock'em Sock'em Robot fight.



YMMV, I have very few mechs that I use ballistics on, and I do just fine with my epeen. Just because the meta-humping 'competitive' scene says it's so, doesn't necessarily mean it's true.



On paper, every one of your suggestions seems reasonable. The numbers may be a little TOO drastic, and I think I'd be happy with your proposals cut in half. But I'm completely with you that some of these changes would make things BETTER. I just don't see the 'problems' with Energy weapons as drastic as some are making them out to be. But on the whole, I think your suggestion is probably the most realistic I've seen in a while.

Half is fine but here's the thing -

Lasers involve holding still for 1 second to fire *in addition to aiming time*. Ballistics with the same aiming time can immediately move away. Inherently lasers are going to spread their damage - that's why the DOT thing is there. They also have *less* range so engagement at range doesn't make allowances for less mobility.

So if you've got lasers and the other guy has ballistics you are inherently disadvantaged in the current system with no discernible benefit to back you up. You counter this on energy builds by getting PPCs, which are energy ballistics. We just got done with a PPC-heavy meta and I'd love to not make them required mounting to stay competitive on energy-based mechs.

We could also really stand to add another style of mech building, it'd add potential and flavor back into chassis long abandoned.

Admittedly my recent efforts to master Tbolts and Bmasters may be skewing my perspective. Their designs, while very pretty, have taken a lot of technique from the Awesome book and as such it feels like if you're not sniping with them you're getting put down like a Dragon with a slow engine. Compare a BM vs a 5-ton lighter Victor or 5 ton heavier Highlander. Less maneuverable both in terms of torso twist and lack of JJs it also can not mount an AC20 on any variant. All the way across the board its reliance on energy hardpoints leaves it at a painful disadvantage (so does the 60 degree torso twist on the 1G. Really PGI? The premier brawling TT assault of the early BT days and you gimp its ability to brawl?

Segue aside we could stand to make lasers and energy builds something other than a 2nd tier backup weapon set. I'd rather not do this by nerfing ballistics but by buffing lasers in a way that makes them more competitive without necessarily more destructive.

[GalaxyBluestar]

ah some more people noticing that overtime front loading damage weapons like ac5's with half the cooldown and more range than lasers are scoreing much more damage.

join this thread and whatch deniers of the phenominon do all the maths for ac10's because the numbers show they're equal to LL's but ac5's beat them and they can't show calculations to save face.

but please do not call for ac nerfs or some other buffs to lasers, just ask for some minor rollbacks to the previous nerf-buff sessions. cause this cycle of meta's is getting stupid/out of hand!

[Roadbeer]

MischiefSC, on 09 November 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

{snip}

I'm there with you.
My original post was just to differentiate the difference between the weapon classes.

But hey, we've both been around long enough... isn't it nice that we're now just talking about juggling fractions rather than "HOLY FU*K! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?"

[Deathlike]

mwhighlander, on 09 November 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

What, really?

I should start a new account and test that.

When LRMs fly around and do block the sun, I'm not hesitant to spam that info.

However, too bad it is far and few in between, given that not a lot of people use them and not of lot of them are used well.

When the stars are aligned and the moon is blocked by lurms, it is GLORIOUS.

[Treye Snow]

MadCat02, on 09 November 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Normal Lasers are perfectly balanced . They are better ton for ton than ACs.

1 Ton for 5 damage is the best DPS per TON if you think about it.

Also any AC build should have Large or Medium lasers for additional damage anyway .

Problem with a per-ton basis is it doesn't matter in gameplay. Think of it like how it happens in an actual game.

I bring my JM6-DD. 2xAC/2 and 2x AC/5 with 300/150 respectively.

On a 10-game string of drops for a typical night, my average is 3 kills a game, 600 dmg and of those 10 games I run out of ammo 1 time.

Why only once? I take my time with my shots. I know it's limited and I don't have backups so when I fire a salvo or hold the trigger down, I expect every shot to land. The only games I have ever run out of ammo where there was a drastic tonnage imbalance or puggies were absolute trash and fell over within the first 3 minutes of the match and depriving the team of their share of damage absorption and dealing.

As a 90's kid who spent his childhood and teenage years playing James Bond titles, Perfect Dark, Halo, Battlefield and other FPS games, it's just pathetic how outgunned energy weapons and missiles are when all I have to do is poke out, pull the trigger once, and duck back into cover all on the move whereas missiles take flight time to crash into a building and energy does worthless damage without full duration.

Per ton means diddly squat in this game, just like the whole "WELL AC'S A STRONGER BECAUSE HEAVIER N' STUFF" argument because common sense in DD vs DPS ruin your day.

I personally think no matter what PGI does to this game, AC's will -Always- be better than energy or missiles because of no recoil and pinpoint, front-loaded damage and players like myself will just chuckle and enjoy farming everyone who thinks otherwise.

The only way to make ballistics fair is to add recoil like a NORMAL FPS, or break down that single slug of 2,5,10,20 damage into more bullets per trigger pull.

Simple math. Simple gameplay. Common Sense proven.

Edited by Mr Terribad, 09 November 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Roadbeer, on 09 November 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

I'm there with you.
My original post was just to differentiate the difference between the weapon classes.

But hey, we've both been around long enough... isn't it nice that we're now just talking about juggling fractions rather than "HOLY FU*K! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?"

Very true. I want SRMs fixed, I think game balancing needs it, but I confess a bit of fear. Historically fixes to missiles have given.... uneven results. Then again I have enough cbills to buy and trick out my C4 again for SRM FACEBOOMHAPPYFUNTIME and my HGN-733 with the 55 LRM tubes *still* has a crazy skewed high KDR from LRMapocalypse.

I'm just hoping that lasers get the next serious balancing pass and not ACs. I think the issue could be fixed far better by a sideways pivot on lasers/pulse lasers rather than a buff/nerf to any weapon group.

[JimboFBX]

I had a blackjack today that was in the face of an inexperienced spider player with a dark red cored ct. I proceeded to fire at this spider, who was facing me and backing up. after about 10 seconds of continuous ac5, mg, 2 x ml, and 4 x flamer to its ct, I died and it didn't (from his teammates). it was about 10m away the entire time

[YueFei]

xe N on, on 09 November 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

AC/20 is very situational.

1. It takes alot of critical slot ... so it can be easily destroyed once armor is stripped
2. it has a long recharge time ... if you miss, you have a problem
3. The speed is so sloooooow ... I can nearly run faster then the AC/20 travelspeed.

AC/20 is 900 meters/sec. The fastest mechs are about 50 meters/sec. It's not even close.