103 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

GRiPSViGiL, on 11 November 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

I actually think being good in PUGs solo says a lot and translates very well to 12 man's. Especially solo PUGing. Not talking 4 man's or even with a buddy. Being effective in Solo PUGing is an art considering you are on your own. I feel it totally translates to 12s in the tactics needed to stay alive and do effective damage.

The only real thing you can demonstrate in PUGs consistently is your own skill. You can do slightly more as a premade.

There's more to 12-mans than just shooting the other team. That's the "easy" part. Coordinating other people to set it all up.. that's a very different matter.

It's very difficult to pull the stuff in 12-mans than you can in PUGs. PUGs almost always go one way.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 November 2013 - 06:38 PM.

[Sandpit]

Deathlike, on 11 November 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

The only real thing you can demonstrate in PUGs consistently is your own skill. You can do slightly more as a premade.

There's more to 12-mans than just shooting the other team. That's the "easy" part. Coordinating other people to set it all up.. that's a very different matter.

It's very difficult to pull the stuff in 12-mans than you can in PUGs. PUGs almost always go one way.

I'm not disputing the skill level that goes into 12man drops at all. I'm jsut saying 12man and pugs are both a unique and almost completely separate metagame

[GRiPSViGiL]

Deathlike, on 11 November 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

The only real thing you can demonstrate in PUGs consistently is your own skill. You can do slightly more as a premade.

There's more to 12-mans than just shooting the other team. That's the "easy" part. Coordinating other people to set it all up.. that's a very different matter.

It's very difficult to pull the stuff in 12-mans than you can in PUGs. PUGs almost always go one way.

Ya, you are not gonna nurture any leadership command skills in PUGs. On rare occasions you can make a suggestion to the PUGs and they carry it out and a use suggestion loosely. I mean situational awareness can be strengthened but without a como rose or some easy on the fly way to communicate with PUGs yet it is a lost cause to try to lead. Voice coms would be ideal but at the very least hopefully a como rose is intuitive enough to do the job once we get it.

I can't and won't argue against 12s having the sophisticated aspects of voice coms and tactics.

[aniviron]

Sandpit, on 10 November 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

I agree completely. That was kinda my point. We have 2 games going on really. We have the highend 12 mans where you have extreme teamwork and builds that are meant to compliment the other mechs on your team. You have actual roles and niches to fill that aren't really as prevalent on the pug side. I honestly think that's where we get some of the "yadda yadda yadda is OP, broken, etc." threads. I think you'll see a huge increase in the cohesiveness of pugs once we get some lobbies and ways to converse and collaborate with others in the game.

I think you're really on to something with your OP, but my reply was going to be exactly what you said here; essentially, I think the game will become much more competitively balanced if/when we get in-game VOIP and decent commander tools. Right now most solo PUGging winds up being "well then we took the mechs with a lot of guns and 20 of us met in the middle and shot until the guns broke." Enabling team communication means that it is much easier to fill a role, and much less of a risk to run a role specific mech, since you can let people know what you're doing and what you have covered so they can focus on what they need to do. While the top-shelf teams will always have different setups than typical teams, I'd guess for the most part PUG teams will wind up settling into the same sorts of roles that competitive teams use.

[MadcatX]

Roadbeer, on 11 November 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

That's because, while we sometimes disagree, you are a somewhat rational person who realizes that the moment CW starts, Lore is a "guideline" of major events and will be forced, in some way, deviate from Cannon.

I am really hoping that happens. Sure you'll have the major events such as the clan invasion. But imagine a BT alternate universe where the clans made it to Terra for example. Although the hardcore Lore fans would cry betrayal, it would be nonetheless at least interesting to see what would result.

[Davers]

MadcatX, on 11 November 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

I am really hoping that happens. Sure you'll have the major events such as the clan invasion. But imagine a BT alternate universe where the clans made it to Terra for example. Although the hardcore Lore fans would cry betrayal, it would be nonetheless at least interesting to see what would result.

Nothing interesting would happen though. This is a video game, not a novel.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Two points.
The rush to get new players into premades is a mistake. One must learn to fight before learning small unit tactics. You hobble the leanring curve on most by forcing it. It hobbles individual initialtve. You want strong independent fighters who have the abilty to operate in a cohesive unit. They will see and opportunity and exploit it long before the drone will. That wins matches, battles and wars. History is replete with examples. The Marines operate on this principle and proven its worth.

Second. Many of us are not interested in competitive play. Its a game so we would rather just have fun. Basing the entirety of the game on competivie play keeps a good number out who would rather not be bothered by the prevailing paradigm. There is plenty of room for both if it was considered. Dont force them into the cookie cutter because you lose the best independent thinkers that way.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Mudhutwarrior, on 12 November 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

Two points.
The rush to get new players into premades is a mistake. One must learn to fight before learning small unit tactics. You hobble the leanring curve on most by forcing it. It hobbles individual initialtve. You want strong independent fighters who have the abilty to operate in a cohesive unit. They will see and opportunity and exploit it long before the drone will. That wins matches, battles and wars. History is replete with examples. The Marines operate on this principle and proven its worth.

Second. Many of us are not interested in competitive play. Its a game so we would rather just have fun. Basing the entirety of the game on competivie play keeps a good number out who would rather not be bothered by the prevailing paradigm. There is plenty of room for both if it was considered. Dont force them into the cookie cutter because you lose the best independent thinkers that way.

1. How can grouping with three other players, with whom you can ask questions and not get smartassed answer (well ok you do but in good humor) with whom you can kick around ideas and with whom you can drop with and learn first hand how to work as a team "Hobble" anyone. You logic is one sided and flawed

2. Everything you press launch and ready you are entering competative play, it's kill or be killed. end of discussion. IF there was a qesting portion of the game then your argument would have merrit but as there isn't you invalidate your own argument every time you drop in a match. Again your logic is flawed.

edit: some of the spelling errors

Edited by Randalf Yorgen, 12 November 2013 - 04:15 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 12 November 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

Two points.
The rush to get new players into premades is a mistake. One must learn to fight before learning small unit tactics. You hobble the leanring curve on most by forcing it. It hobbles individual initialtve. You want strong independent fighters who have the abilty to operate in a cohesive unit. They will see and opportunity and exploit it long before the drone will. That wins matches, battles and wars. History is replete with examples. The Marines operate on this principle and proven its worth.

Second. Many of us are not interested in competitive play. Its a game so we would rather just have fun. Basing the entirety of the game on competivie play keeps a good number out who would rather not be bothered by the prevailing paradigm. There is plenty of room for both if it was considered. Dont force them into the cookie cutter because you lose the best independent thinkers that way.

You make good points here. Rushing into a Pre made unit can be bad for you.If I had Joined The Law before learning the ropes, I would have been a burden. But being thrown to the wolves, made me recognize my strengths and weaknesses much quicker.

As to not being competitive that is obvious by your trying to impose some false moralistic restrictions on how the game should be played. But I have t ask if you are playing for fun, and losing causes you to not have fun, are you not in fact trying to play to win???

Randalf Yorgen, on 12 November 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

1. How can grouping with three other players, with whom you can ask questions and not get smartassed answer (well ok you do but in good humor) with whom you can kick around ideas and with whom you can drop with and learn first hand how to work as a team "Hobble" anyone. You logic is one sided and flawed

2. Everything you press launch and ready you are entering competative play, it's kill or be killed. end of discussion. IF there was a qesting portion of the game then your argument would have merrit but as there isn't you invalidate your own argument every time you drop in a match. Again your logic is flawed.

edit: some of the spelling errors

On Point 2. We may be entering Competitive play but that does not mean we enter it trying to be competitive! There are times the Law will just Wang it. Rain on your parade or any number of Shenanigans we want to do to break the ice.

[MadcatX]

Davers, on 11 November 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

Nothing interesting would happen though. This is a video game, not a novel.

Indeed, video games have never been known to have compelling narrative, oh what was I thinking.

[Davers]

MadcatX, on 12 November 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Indeed, video games have never been known to have compelling narrative, oh what was I thinking.

Just like WoT has a compelling narrative, right? This is not a story game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Davers, on 12 November 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

Just like WoT has a compelling narrative, right? This is not a story game.

The story is you will be fighting to repel the Invading Clans or capture Terra from the Barbarian Inner Sphere Houses. There is several years of Canon history that will be drawn from. Now since we are playing it as a PvP that history will get rewritten in places and reinforced in others. It will be just like any other game similar to Neverwinter. There will be an Overall story, side quests and mini adventures (probably). If there isn't Well why would we want to play. Many of us have already established how good we are in the months of mindless/rewardless combat we have been doing. If this is what you think MechWarrior is going to be I am sad for you.

[Training Instructor]

If merc corps own a planet, will we get the option of dropping 4-12 man team of locusts on to their planet when they're offplanet, so that we can machine gun their civilians and techs?

Then we can finally have a purpose for flamers and machine guns.

[ATao]

Mycrus, on 10 November 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

Tsk, pity all that four pee pee cee
"weapon mastery"...

You sound just like this Rubidiy guy from the screens below .



But the thing is I'm still here and having fun. Yeah I miss quadro sometimes but I'm adaptive and now using other good configs. And where is this 96 damage scrub? Where is his 36 damage friend? Somewhere around I guess. Pity them .

Notice that all the trash comes from scrubs who performed the worst in the match. Even though red team had -1 player their leading lance did all they could and showed some nice damage numbers. And they didn't talk trash.

Those are only two screens but all I wrote in my first reply is in them. Big ego scrubs go whining about "unbalanced fits", "nerf this, nerf that", "I don't use fotm, I'm original" and the like. Of course there are exceptions but they only prove the rule. Well that's how things work anyways. I can only hope for Paul Inouye's better vision .

Edited by Alexander Malthus, 12 November 2013 - 06:33 AM.

[Davers]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 November 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

The story is you will be fighting to repel the Invading Clans or capture Terra from the Barbarian Inner Sphere Houses. There is several years of Canon history that will be drawn from. Now since we are playing it as a PvP that history will get rewritten in places and reinforced in others. It will be just like any other game similar to Neverwinter. There will be an Overall story, side quests and mini adventures (probably). If there isn't Well why would we want to play. Many of us have already established how good we are in the months of mindless/rewardless combat we have been doing. If this is what you think MechWarrior is going to be I am sad for you.

I doubt this game will be at all like Neverwinter. I think I will be the one feeling sorry for you when you realize this is a FPS with some continuity added to it.

PGI prove me wrong!

[Rushin Roulette]

Sandpit, on 10 November 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

First let's look at "competitive play". I think one of the fallacies of this is that only 12v12 is considered "competitive". Every game played will be competitive, especially once CW becomes implemented and every game played will have planetary ramifications.

I see a lot of players saying things like "This wont' work in a 12v12" or "Good luck being "competitive" in a 12v12 with that once CW is here" What they fail to understand is that CW doesn't mean 12v12 will be the new meta. It just means there will still be that high end player driven meta within the meta.

Apart from that, Ive spoken with one of the devs, and I was told (unofficially at the moment, so dont take my word for it), that the plans were that 12 v 12 and future lobby system will have absolutely no affect on the community warfare aspect of the game.

The reason for this (and that was also my worry at the time) is that players could missuse the private 12 v 12 matches to change the Community warfare borders and faction advantages (Especially if they use bots on a 24/7 basis with no others to report this missuse as no one would ever see or notice these private matches) for everyone.

[Charons Little Helper]

One thing that will be interesting is how the 'meta' - both for PUGs & 12 mans change with weight limits.

My theory is that brawling will get a bit of a boost. Reason? With the average mech being smaller - the average mech will also be faster. Therefore the range advantages of sniping will be lessened when the enemy brawler mech can close the distance faster.

It doesn't work that way now, because when the brawler hunchback closes in they're currently still outweighed by that highlander. But if the sniper they're dealing with is the same weight they should thrash them if they can close, plus being lower weight said sniper would have firepower & done less damage as the brawler closed.

(And this ignores that the average mech will be smaller & therefore better able to use cover.)

[Joseph Mallan]

Davers, on 12 November 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

I doubt this game will be at all like Neverwinter. I think I will be the one feeling sorry for you when you realize this is a FPS with some continuity added to it.

PGI prove me wrong!

I won't be sorry, I will just be gone.

Alexander Malthus, on 12 November 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

You sound just like this Rubidiy guy from the screens below .



But the thing is I'm still here and having fun. Yeah I miss quadro sometimes but I'm adaptive and now using other good configs. And where is this 96 damage scrub? Where is his 36 damage friend? Somewhere around I guess. Pity them .

Notice that all the trash comes from scrubs who performed the worst in the match. Even though red team had -1 player their leading lance did all they could and showed some nice damage numbers. And they didn't talk trash.

Those are only two screens but all I wrote in my first reply is in them. Big ego scrubs go whining about "unbalanced fits", "nerf this, nerf that", "I don't use fotm, I'm original" and the like. Of course there are exceptions but they only prove the rule. Well that's how things work anyways. I can only hope for Paul Inouye's better vision .

Sore losers are a bane to the gaming industry.

[Sandpit]

Mud, nobody here is advocating you to use any kind of group (although it's a MUCH easier way to get through the learning curve) we are discussing the differences between the two metas of 12man and everyone else and how things might play out in CW. I understand (well not really) your disdain of grouping with other players but that's really neither here nor there. It's a team game and whether you want to team with others and have a good communication tool (TS) or pug and team with random people, you're still on a team.

I'm just interested in thoughts and opinions and ideas on how 12man and everyone else is going to coexist within CW. I think it's going to be an interesting dynamic and we really will have a meta within the meta when it comes to 12mans

[Sandpit]

Another thing I've noticed lately is that "meta builds" seem to be almost exclusive to 12mans. Everyone keeps saying "Good luck using that in 12mans". Why would that ever be an issue? If I never drop in a 12man I never have to worry about what will or won't work in that environment