298 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 November 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

If the Team loses an I get 4 kills and 600 damage, I crack a cold one an know I had a good game.

Be sure to let us know how exactly you will do that when the inexperienced half of your team dies in the first two minutes having achieved less than 100 damage, and now you have a competent enemy team rolling over the top of you and the few other competent guys on your team.

Maybe if you're in a D-DC, and the enemy blob focuses on one of the other remaining competent players first before coming after you, you'll get a kill or two before you are put down by overwhelming weight of numbers. And that's as good as that scenario gets. Most times, you'll get off a few last shots before 6 enemy Mechs all shoot you at once and core you.

To be crystal clear... I don't mind losing matches. Not a bit. What I want are closer matches, win or lose. A game where my team gets stomped 2-12 or worse, because half my team is composed of incompetent newcomers in trial mechs, is just not enjoyable. 30 losses later, when my win/loss ratio has slumped to the required level and my Elo has gone down, I don't enjoying switching to the other team, where I will be ROFLstomping the incompetent newcomers, either.

Using a mass of players with bad Elo to offset a few high Elo players is simply a bad way to create a match. It's bad for the newcomers, and it's bad for the high Elo players too.

Edited by Appogee, 14 November 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[Kunae]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 November 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

That is your perception alone. PGI did not expect you to do anything. You put yourself under to much unnecessary pressure!

No, it's observational experience, and I am not alone in this.

If the higher Elo players happen to die on one side, really early for whatever reason, a 3-0 lead can quickly turn into a 3-12 loss. I've seen it happen way too many times.(Edit: This usually happens because the low Elo folks tend to run away and hide at the first sign of enemy fire.)

Also, if the higher Elo players happen to just be screwing around in mechs, leveling odd variants/loadouts, etc, then there's a pretty reasonable chance it's going to be a losing match.

Edited by Kunae, 14 November 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 14 November 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

What I can't understand is why new players start with an average Elo. Surely it would be better for all if they started at a lower level?

Seriously! That is award winning thinking! Start off Low/easy and let the player find his/her happy place! That is absolutely excellent thinking!

[Kunae]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 14 November 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

What I can't understand is why new players start with an average Elo. Surely it would be better for all if they started at a lower level?

Heck, they should start at zero.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

Dawwww I was listening to Mr Blue Sky then I clicked to go to the next page but wasn't ready for the music to stop YOUTUBES I"M COMING FOR YE

carry on

[FrDrake]

Kunae, on 14 November 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Heck, they should start at zero.

I believe the line of thought goes they don't want to punish decent players with a minimum of Elo, if you belong in the underhive you'll get there, if you don't hopefully you never have to see it.

I know people hate game comprison but League of Legends has your first 10 games as "seeding" games, they see how you do in them and then inject you with an Elo they believe approximates your skill from those first 10 games.

[Joseph Mallan]

Appogee, on 14 November 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Be sure to let us know how exactly you will do that when the inexperienced half of your team dies in the first two minutes having achieved less than 100 damage, and now you have a competent enemy team rolling over the top of you and the few other competent guys on your team.

Maybe if you're in a D-DC, and the enemy blob focuses on one of the other remaining competent players first before coming after you, you'll get a kill or two before you are put down by overwhelming weight of numbers. And that's as good as that scenario gets. Most times, you'll get off a few last shots before 6 enemy Mechs all shoot you at once and core you.

I did it in a Jager 40... 3-4 weeks ago. I was running all over Frozen City, weaving in and out of buildings, taking shots as they presented themselves. Next game I did 100 damage and die in 3 minutes.

As for your negative scenarios, they happen all the time! Like I said, I have been gaming and competing for 33 of my 47 years. You learn to take the good when you have it, an inspect the bad for a lesson for next time.

Kunae, on 14 November 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Heck, they should start at zero.

Yes!

[SgtKinCaiD]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 November 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

That is your perception alone. PGI did not expect you to do anything. You put yourself under to much unnecessary pressure!

You just lost all credibility on this subject : you clearly don't know how the MM is working so please refrain to comment any further.

[Roadbeer]

Kunae, on 14 November 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Heck, they should start at zero.

I'm all for that

[Mawai]

AC, on 11 November 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

The main issue is that you can never dig yourself out of the hole with ELO. The way it was explained to me is that it is a team driven ELO system. It does not take into account your personal performance for any match, but instead only takes into account the team performance. ie.... if you get stuck with a noob team and kill 6 mechs, your ELO will go down and you will still be stuck with a noob team next match.

This is what frustrates me and tends to lead to the steam roll that we have now. You have good players and poor players all with the same ELO because of the wins and losses of the teams they have been on. So if the match maker nabs a team that has a lot of good players with low ELO and puts them against bad players with low ELO....steam roll ensues. I know this is happening because I have litterally been in matches where a player will ask questions a guy playing his first match would ask and then die with 4pts damage. This sucks for his team AND more importantly for the player. This game still has the worst new user experience of any game I have seen/played to date. The initial new user experience is what will keep PGI from attracting a large player base.

Actually, I am not sure you understand how ELO works.

1) It IS team based ELO ... a net ELO is calculated for the team as a whole.
2) The matchmaker takes ELO (and possibly tonnage differential) into account and predicts which team will win.
3) Your ELO only changes if the matchmaker prediction is incorrect.
- if your team loses when the matchmaker thinks it should have won then your ELO drops
- if your team wins when the matchmaker thinks it should have lost then your ELO goes up
- if the matchmaker gets the prediction correct then your ELO does NOT change.

As a result, every loss does not drop your ELO and every win does not increase it. ONLY the wins and losses that were not predicted by the matchmaker affect your ELO.

If you are in a rofl stomp with 6 noobs and lose badly ... then your ELO probably won't change since the matchmaker probably agreed that you would lose. Similarly, if you are on the winning side of a rofl stomp it is likely your ELO won't be going up either.

This is the system that PGI has said the matchmaker uses. It is not clear whether the matchmaker modifies the prediction system for tonnage differential but it would be poorly implemented if the tonnage differential was not also factored in somehow.

[SgtKinCaiD]

And NO, new player should NOT begin with a low ELO if the MM stays the same : you will just end up with more of them in your team to compensate for their even lower ELO.

Edited by SgtKinCaiD, 14 November 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 November 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Merc are not going to abide by this and will attempt to bring 3X the enmey's weight... Just like it is done in Canon.

Powell Doctrine. Bring ALL the Atlases.

[Jman5]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 14 November 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

What I can't understand is why new players start with an average Elo. Surely it would be better for all if they started at a lower level?

They don't. They start with 1100 Elo, while Average is 1300.

[Appogee]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 November 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

I did it in a Jager 40... 3-4 weeks ago. I was running all over Frozen City, weaving in and out of buildings, taking shots as they presented themselves.

Oh come on. AC40 Jagers are an extreme high-Alpha/crit build and yes, if we all ran them all the time, we could probably kill a couple more players in those last few seconds while we are the last guy standing.

But I thought we were being serious here and talking about your average game, not about such extreme circumstances. (Personally I find AC40 Jagers almost comically min/maxed and I don't use them much because they require such a narrow play style that gets boring after a little while.)

Joseph Mallan, on 14 November 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

As for your negative scenarios, they happen all the time! Like I said, I have been gaming and competing for 33 of my 47 years. You learn to take the good when you have it, an inspect the bad for a lesson for next time.

Noob. I have 3+ years experience on you. But you'll probably wise up by the time you hit 50.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kunae, on 14 November 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

No, it's observational experience, and I am not alone in this.

If the higher Elo players happen to die on one side, really early for whatever reason, a 3-0 lead can quickly turn into a 3-12 loss. I've seen it happen way too many times.(Edit: This usually happens because the low Elo folks tend to run away and hide at the first sign of enemy fire.)

Also, if the higher Elo players happen to just be screwing around in mechs, leveling odd variants/loadouts, etc, then there's a pretty reasonable chance it's going to be a losing match.

Then you High Elo guys did all you could in that match. If you cannot be satisfied with that you are not truly competitive. Cause You cannot be a real competitor if you cannot accept failure. I play to win every game, Heck I look at it as if I am killing my opponent (you just don't get more competitive than that.), So i sucks when I don't get my fill of killing you guys! But I put that aside at the end of the match when I see I got 1-2 of you before you go me. I'm cool with that. I'm also cool if when the match is over an I helped kill 4 of you! Oh we Lost?... Ok I got mine before I died!

[Kunae]

Mawai, on 14 November 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Actually, I am not sure you understand how ELO works.

1) It IS team based ELO ... a net ELO is calculated for the team as a whole.
2) The matchmaker takes ELO (and possibly tonnage differential) into account and predicts which team will win.
3) Your ELO only changes if the matchmaker prediction is incorrect.
- if your team loses when the matchmaker thinks it should have won then your ELO drops
- if your team wins when the matchmaker thinks it should have lost then your ELO goes up
- if the matchmaker gets the prediction correct then your ELO does NOT change.

As a result, every loss does not drop your ELO and every win does not increase it. ONLY the wins and losses that were not predicted by the matchmaker affect your ELO.

If you are in a rofl stomp with 6 noobs and lose badly ... then your ELO probably won't change since the matchmaker probably agreed that you would lose. Similarly, if you are on the winning side of a rofl stomp it is likely your ELO won't be going up either.

This is the system that PGI has said the matchmaker uses. It is not clear whether the matchmaker modifies the prediction system for tonnage differential but it would be poorly implemented if the tonnage differential was not also factored in somehow.

Slightly incorrect. The Elo always moves, after each match, but the degree it moves depends on what you listed.

The problem with the system is that it is not conducive to fun. Losing, repeatedly, just because the MM has purposefully set it that way is not enjoyable, and people could generally care less about the amount their Elo score moves or not.

Jman5, on 14 November 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

They don't. They start with 1100 Elo, while Average is 1300.

They start with an 1100, but then after the 25th mission they are automatically given a +200 pt boost to whatever their score got adjusted to during those matches.

[Joseph Mallan]

SgtKinCaiD, on 14 November 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

You just lost all credibility on this subject : you clearly don't know how the MM is working so please refrain to comment any further.

You think so? If you think you an you alone are going to carry a game against 12 enemy players, You just lost all credebility. Cause if that was the case you'd drop alone.

[Kunae]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 November 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Then you High Elo guys did all you could in that match. If you cannot be satisfied with that you are not truly competitive. Cause You cannot be a real competitor if you cannot accept failure. I play to win every game, Heck I look at it as if I am killing my opponent (you just don't get more competitive than that.), So i sucks when I don't get my fill of killing you guys! But I put that aside at the end of the match when I see I got 1-2 of you before you go me. I'm cool with that. I'm also cool if when the match is over an I helped kill 4 of you! Oh we Lost?... Ok I got mine before I died!

Ah, but you see, I am not as selfish as you. I want the team to win, and do what I can to make that happen, even at the expense of my stats. For example: If I can split the enemy and drag half of them away from my team, so my team can have a numerical advantage, I will in a heartbeat. Even if I only end up doing 50dmg and die.

Now the part that gets frustrating, and is caused by the stupid MM, is that much of the rest of the team doesn't capitalize on this advantage, and continues to play hidey-peeky with the massively outnumbered force until the split folks get back, 3 minutes later... Then they get rolled up, quickly. Oh, and usually by the time I die, the enemy half-team that is facing our main-body has already killed 2 or 3 of them.

Edited by Kunae, 14 November 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Appogee, on 14 November 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Oh come on. AC40 Jagers are an extreme high-Alpha/crit build and yes, if we all ran them all the time, we could probably kill a couple more players in those last few seconds while we are the last guy standing.

Then you should have been able to guess how I got it done.

Quote

But I thought we were being serious here and talking about your average game, not about such extreme circumstances. (Personally I find AC40 Jagers almost comically min/maxed and I don't use them much because they require such a narrow play style that gets boring after a little while.)

My average game, 1-2 Kills, 3-6 Assists, 300-400 damage win or lose.

Quote

Noob. I have 3+ years experience on you. But you'll probably wise up by the time you hit 50.

God I hope not! I like being able to have fun against expectations!

Kunae, on 14 November 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Ah, but you see, I am not as selfish as you. I want the team to win, and do what I can to make that happen, even at the expense of my stats. For example: If I can split the enemy and drag half of them away from my team, so my team can have a numerical advantage, I will in a heartbeat. Even if I only end up doing 50dmg and die. Now the part that gets frustrating, and is caused by the stupid MM, is that much of the rest of the team doesn't capitalize on this advantage, and continues to play hidey-peeky with the massively outnumbered force until the split folks get back, 3 minutes later... Then they get rolled up, quickly.

I want the team to win also, So you are in error. I just cannot be responsible for the team not being able to pull it off. No matter how much I try. MM cannot make our team mates work as a unit! Comms would help.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 November 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[Kunae]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 November 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

I want the team to win also, So you are in error. I just cannot be responsible for the team not being able to pull it off. No matter how much I try. MM cannot make our team mates work as a unit! Comms would help.

No, but the MM can influence whether or not our team-mates have the competence to work as a unit. It can, and does, make our team-mates not work as a unit. If it continually, by design, places barely out of MWO-diapers players on the same teams as players with over 5000 matches, then it is purposefully impeding teamwork in those matches. Experienced players will innately understand what teamwork is necessary to do well.

And I am not in error. Almost every one of your posts on this subject are all about "if I am having fun, nothing else matters about the performance of my team" and "as long as I take 1 or 2 with me, I am happy with the match". That's textbook selfish behavior.

Edited by Kunae, 14 November 2013 - 11:13 AM.