19 replies to this topic

[misha4ever]

I read they cool 2X in the engine at 1.4 anywhere else.
However when i asked this question ingame, some people said its only 1.4 everywhere now.

Can anyone definitively say which is currently true?

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Asking in-game can give a player mixed info. If you haven't checked out this resource I recommend you do: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/ the info comes from game files.

So engines 250 and above give you 10 DHS in the engine that give 0.20 dissipation and 2.00 heat capacity. Smaller than 250, you get between 4 to 9 DHS in the engine.

All external DHS give 0.14 dissipation and 1.40 heat capacity.


Edit:

Here is an example of a build, check the Weaponlab tab that brings up a pop-up that shows some statistics like the total dissipation and heat capacity for example.

Edited by Praetor Shepard, 11 November 2013 - 06:06 PM.

[Flying Blind]

Praetor is correct, but I would like to add that if you have an engine big enough to have heat sink slots, then the heat sinks you add will be of the 1.4 variety and not the full 2.0.

This often confuses people.

[Koniving]

Here you go.
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/

Enjoy! And I gotta tell you this system allows so much weapon spam. The only MW or battletech game to ever feature rising thresholds (which means rising alpha strike potential). The only game to ever suffer 6 PPC boats that fire all at once twice in a row without shutting down. The only one to need ghost heat and double armor. I just can't fathom why. >.>

Praetor Shepard, on 11 November 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

So engines 250 and above give you 10 DHS in the engine that give 0.20 dissipation and 2.00 heat capacity. Smaller than 250, you get between 4 to 9 DHS in the engine.

All external DHS give 0.14 dissipation and 1.40 heat capacity.

Note the dissipation and capacity given here are for each individual DHS. 1 internal engine DHS = 0.2 dissipation + 2.0 capacity.
1 externally mounted DHS = 0.14 dissipation and 1.40 capacity.
--------------
You start with a base of 30 capacity (where MW3, all of the Battletech simulators, etc. give you a solid unchangeable 30 threshold period) + the capacity of your heatsinks.

10 SHS = 30 + 1.0 * heatsink count(10) = 40. 0.1 cooling per second * 10 = 1 dissipation per second.
10 DHS = 30 + [2.0 * engine heatsink count (10)] + [1.4 * external heatsink count (0)] = 50. 0.2 cooling per second * 10 = 2 dissipation per second. (So it cools twice as fast and lets you alpha strike a full PPC extra on top of that!)

Add in mastered mech stats. 10 SHS = 48 capacity. 10 DHS = 60 capacity.

Interesting is this: 175 engine (Locust common limit) with 12 DHS.
12 DHS = 30 + [2.0 * engine heatsink count (7)] + [1.4 * external heatsink count (5)] = 51. 0.2 * 7 + 0.14*5 = 2.1 cooling.
11 DHS = 30 + [2.0 * engine heatsink count (7)] + [1.4 * external heatsink count (4)] = 49.6. 0.2 * 7 + 0.14*4 = 1.96 cooling.

11 DHs = 1.96 cooling for a smaller, lower heat engine yet for a larger, higher heat engine it's 2.0 for 10 DHS?

Just food for thought on underlying balancing issues.

Edited by Koniving, 11 November 2013 - 09:05 PM.

[Goose]

…

So if you have DSHSs, the only the first ten, if they are hidden will be full-on, and all others will be 1.4.

First ten, or only those hidden in the engine, whichever is less …

[Koniving]

Only those hidden in the engine (the maximum of which is 10). Indeed. 250 is the magic engine rating.

[travelbug]

Koniving, on 11 November 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

Here you go.
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/

Enjoy! And I gotta tell you this system allows so much weapon spam. The only MW or battletech game to ever feature rising thresholds (which means rising alpha strike potential). The only game to ever suffer 6 PPC boats that fire all at once twice in a row without shutting down. The only one to need ghost heat and double armor. I just can't fathom why. >.>


Note the dissipation and capacity given here are for each individual DHS. 1 internal engine DHS = 0.2 dissipation + 2.0 capacity.
1 externally mounted DHS = 0.14 dissipation and 1.40 capacity.
--------------
You start with a base of 30 capacity (where MW3, all of the Battletech simulators, etc. give you a solid unchangeable 30 threshold period) + the capacity of your heatsinks.

10 SHS = 30 + 1.0 * heatsink count(10) = 40. 0.1 cooling per second * 10 = 1 dissipation per second.
10 DHS = 30 + [2.0 * engine heatsink count (10)] + [1.4 * external heatsink count (0)] = 50. 0.2 cooling per second * 10 = 2 dissipation per second. (So it cools twice as fast and lets you alpha strike a full PPC extra on top of that!)

Add in mastered mech stats. 10 SHS = 48 capacity. 10 DHS = 60 capacity.

Interesting is this: 175 engine (Locust common limit) with 12 DHS.
12 DHS = 30 + [2.0 * engine heatsink count (7)] + [1.4 * external heatsink count (5)] = 51. 0.2 * 7 + 0.14*5 = 2.1 cooling.
11 DHS = 30 + [2.0 * engine heatsink count (7)] + [1.4 * external heatsink count (4)] = 49.6. 0.2 * 7 + 0.14*4 = 1.96 cooling.

11 DHs = 1.96 cooling for a smaller, lower heat engine yet for a larger, higher heat engine it's 2.0 for 10 DHS?

Just food for thought on underlying balancing issues.

my poor math skills got me confused with this.
could you give me another example with say a std295(dhs), 1 dhs inside the engine, and 1 dhs in the st. what would be the dissipation ?

[Durant Carlyle]

Dissipation would be 20 + 2.0 + 1.4 = 23.4 -- that's 2.34 heat per second.
Capacity would be 30 + 20 + 2.0 + 1.4 = 53.4

[Koniving]

travelbug, on 11 November 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

my poor math skills got me confused with this.
could you give me another example with say a std295(dhs), 1 dhs inside the engine, and 1 dhs in the st. what would be the dissipation ?

http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/ Plug it in.
Note that anything aside from what comes with the engine itself is 1.4. So 1 "in the engine" and 1 in the side torso... is just 2 external 1.4 DHS.
Sim says: 52.8 capacity (threshold)
12 DHS = 30 + [2.0 * engine heatsink count (10)] + [1.4 * external heatsink count (2)] = 30+20+2.8 = 52.8. Checks out.
How 'bout cooling? Sim says 2.28.
52.8 - 30 = 22.8 / 10 seconds = 2.28 per second.

Checks out.

Now what would that be in TT, MW3, Battletech 1989, Crescent Hawk's revenge, Battletech 32 player simulator 1993, and the original MW2?
30 capacity (never changes).
DHS 2.0 * 12 = 24 / 10 seconds = 2.4 cooling per second.

How 'bout both after master skills in MWO?
MWO: 63.654 (rounded up) capacity. (6 PPCs + walking = shutdown without ghost heat.).
2.62/sec cooling (To reach 0 from overheat: 25 seconds.)
Weapons required to hit shutdown for the test: (All fired at once and only reached 98% heat).
Small Laser
Medium Laser
Large Laser
Extended Large Laser
Small Pulse Laser
Medium Pulse Laser
Large Pulse Laser
PPC
ER PPC
Flamer
Autocannon 2
Autocannon 5
Edit: Fun fact, even firing all these weapons I triggered ghost heat without realizing it, the LL, ER LL, LPL combo = ghost heat. Still could not shut down in the alpha strike!

TT, MW3, etc after master skills in MWO.
36 capacity. (3 PPCs + ML + SL [with ghost heat removed] while stationary, shutdown).
2.76/sec cooling. Time to reach zero from here: 13.# seconds. (For comparison from MWO's 63.654, it would take 23.# seconds to return to zero).
Weapons required to hit 36 heat.
9 Medium lasers (with ghost heat removed)

Side note: Without ghost heat:

The TT, MW3, etc. heat system with MWO's skill tree mastered will only let you fire 9 MWO style medium lasers once from 0 heat and shutdown without being able to move. This is regardless of 10 SHS or 27 DHS, regardless of a 60 rated engine or a 400 rated engine. 9 ML with mastered skills, that's it, you can't even move.

With MWO's system you can fire 9 ML twice in a row factoring in the cooling between shots and still not shut down. Though you could if moving during the second alpha strike. This is with 12 DHS and a 250 or higher engine.

Durant Carlyle, on 11 November 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Dissipation would be 20 + 2.0 + 1.4 = 23.4 -- that's 2.34 heat per second.
Capacity would be 30 + 20 + 2.0 + 1.4 = 53.4

Nothing you add to the mech in DHS counts. The 2.0 DHS cap out at times 10 for "20". There's no additional 2.0.

Edited by Koniving, 12 November 2013 - 12:13 AM.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Flying Blind, on 11 November 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Praetor is correct, but I would like to add that if you have an engine big enough to have heat sink slots, then the heat sinks you add will be of the 1.4 variety and not the full 2.0.

This often confuses people.

I'VE BEEN LIVING A LIE. BALLS.

I mistakenly thought that any engine-mounted DHS gave the 2x dissipation. Sigh.

Welp, moving those extras back into side torsos for crit padding in 3... 2...

[TercieI]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 12 November 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

I'VE BEEN LIVING A LIE. BALLS.

I mistakenly thought that any engine-mounted DHS gave the 2x dissipation. Sigh.

Welp, moving those extras back into side torsos for crit padding in 3... 2...

Not just you. I see this in builds ALL the time.

The lack of documentation means, 2000+ games in, I still read the New Player section and I still learn a lot of useful stuff. Not all of it from Koniving either.

[scJazz]

The engine limit thing is the reason why I've held off on Blackjacks for so long.

A mech with all energy or hot firing AC2s and it can't mount a 250 engine for fully effective 1st 10 DSHS

Easy thing to remember is that unless you have a 250+ engine even your 1st 10 DSHS are not DSHS!

[stjobe]

Although not entirely related to the DHS issue, this image still nicely illustrates two things about the MWO heat system, namely that the heat capacity (before pilot skills) isn't any larger than it was in TT, but that it will still feel that way because there's no heat penalties before 100% heat:



A common misconception about TT is that it had a fixed heat cap at 30; this is wrong because while the heat scale indeed went from 0 to 30, as you can see in the illustration above you had all your heat sinks worth of heat before registering on that scale at all.

MWO doesn't label its scale the way TT did, but goes from 0-100% instead - but the length of the scale is the same (before pilot skills extend the MWO scale by another 20%).

But what makes MWO's heat system so different than TT is that there's not a single bit of penalty for being at 99% heat, whereas in TT heat penalties started kicking in at somewhere between 37.5% and 60% heat, depending on your number of heat sinks.

Edited by stjobe, 12 November 2013 - 06:48 AM.

[Koniving]

stjobe, on 12 November 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

A common misconception about TT is that it had a fixed heat cap at 30; this is wrong because while the heat scale indeed went from 0 to 30, as you can see in the illustration above you had all your heat sinks worth of heat before registering on that scale at all.

Key phrase, after 10 seconds.
Take a TT turn, reduce it to 1 second. It's 30 + 1 second worth of DHS or SHS.
Reduce it to 0 seconds. It's 30, with no cooling.
Regardless, it's 30. Period. None of the heat, none of the cooling, none of the effects are given until after 10 seconds, which is a summary of what happened during the turn. That's the common misconception.

"Ten Seconds."

Now go into a match. Start counting to 10. Notice you cannot get the same results. In fact, even with slower cooling you cannot match the results of the exact same weapons with MWO's heat and cooling against tabletop at all. Try it. It's mathematically impossible. MWO's system allows more alpha strikes, more fire, and a lot more spam.

For example in this 'epic rush', I put the exact same thing into tabletop for 21 DHS with TT heat. I overheat in 30 seconds, having fired 3 shots of each large laser. That's 12 shots total, 6 with LLs (8*6), 6 with ER LLs (8*12).



(Edit 2: Corrected. Originally did the math for 21 SHS, lol!) Let's take that same thing and plug it in here properly with MWO's heat.

• 42 SHS = 4.2 cooling per 10 seconds.
  
• 2 ER LL = 17 heat in MWO. 2 LL = 14 heat in MWO.
  
• Ignoring threshold like Stjobe says until after 10 seconds.
  
• 31 heat generated in 10 seconds - 42 heat cooled in 10 seconds = -11 heat.
  
• (Note: LLs and ER LLs are too cold).
  
• Mkay effectively it's become a heat neutral build with 1 shot at a time. Let's make it 2 shots at a time each which is 2 ER LL and 2 LL fired every 5 seconds.
  
• 31 + 31 = 62 - 42 = 12.
  
• turn 1: 12. Turn 2: 24. Turn 3: 36. 3 turns to shutdown = 30 seconds = 24 shots. (12 * 6 LL + 12 * 6 ER LL).

Here, I fired 12 shots in 17 seconds and never overheat. They are not the same. Not only that but I continued to keep shooting after the fact and still couldn't overheat. Make the following notes: 42 SHS = 21 DHS in tabletop. 4.2 cooling the whole way in both cases with MWO weapon heat.

2 ER LL = 17 heat in MWO. 2 LL = 14 heat in MWO.
Ignoring threshold like Stjobe says until after 10 seconds.
31 - 42 = heat neutral. Fire it twice as often, gain 12 heat.

Now, even if you throw in MWO's skill system and MWO's heat (as I should have done in the first place) and their effects here's what we get

Tabletop with MWO's skill system mastered (the heat containment and cool run, even if fast fire worked leaving it out only helps Stjobe's argument so we're leaving it out).
30 + 20% heat containment = 36 threshold. 4.2 + 15% cool run = 4.83 cooling.
We'll completely ignore timing for this, but in order to even make this work in real time you'd have to chain fire the lasers or fire them in pairs and wait 6 seconds to safely fire the others while moving.
2 ER LL in MWO heat = 8.5 * 2 = 17 heat.
2 LL in MWO heat = 7 * 2 = 14 heat.
Turn 1. Generates 17 + 14 heat = 31 * 2 = 62 - (4.83*10 seconds =) 48.3 = 13.7 heat left over. Our summary after the math is 13.7 heat out of 30 in 10 seconds.
Turn 2. 6.85 heat carried over, + 62 heat generated in 10 seconds - 48.3 cooled in 10 seconds = 27.4 as our summary for turn 2.
Turn 3, 27.4 carried over. 62 heat generated in 10 seconds - 48.3 cooled in 10 seconds = 41.1 heat. Shutdown.


Spoilered because factored for 21 SHS and single shot like an *****.

Spoiler

30 + 20% heat containment = 36 threshold. 1.2 + 15% cool run = 2.415 cooling.
We'll completely ignore timing for this, but in order to even make this work in real time you'd have to chain fire the lasers or fire them in pairs and wait 6 seconds to safely fire the others while moving.
2 ER LL in MWO heat = 8.5 * 2 = 17 heat.
2 LL in MWO heat = 7 * 2 = 14 heat.
Turn 1. Generates 17 + 14 heat = 31 - (2.415*10 seconds =) 24.15 = 6.85 heat left over. Our summary after the math is 6.85 heat out of 30 in 10 seconds.
Turn 2. 6.85 heat carried over, + 31 heat generated in 10 seconds - 24.15 cooled in 10 seconds = 13.7 as our summary for turn 2.
Turn 3, 13.7 carried over. 31 heat generated in 10 seconds - 24.15

In here... Let's bring what I did up to 30 seconds just like there.
We know after 30 seconds I generated 41.1 heat total. Even if we factor in that the lasers fire once every 4.25 seconds where I can squeeze off 7 shots for all 4 weapons [totaling 28 lasers fired] (instead of once every 5 seconds for 6, totaling 24 lasers fired), let's see if I can overheat.

Let's take our 6 shots per laser, 62 + 62 + 62 = 186 heat generated in thirty seconds with one volley per five seconds - (thirty seconds of cooling 48.3 + 48.3 + 48.3 = 144.9) = 186 - 144.9 = 41.1 heat.
Tack on 1 more shot per laser = 31 heat. We can't subtract anything, we still have the same 30 seconds.
41.1 + 31 = 72.1 heat.
Note that heat is factored with skills for additional cooling. Without any skills that rig has 72 threshold. Thus without skills it'd shut down with 7 volleys. Tabletop with 6 volleys.
But we added skills to Both tabletop's cooling and threshold. So we must add it to MWO as well.
30 + 42 = 72 threshold + 20% = 86.4.

TT: 36 threshold, in 30 seconds ignoring threshold per 10 second volley until the end, shutdown in 30 seconds. 6 volleys.
Exact same situation in MWO with 7 volleys instead of 6, exact same cooling. MWO's 86.4 threshold. Fail to shutdown in 30 seconds.

Funny facts: According to SCJazz, Terra Therma removes 20% threshold and 20% cooling, negating the rapid cooling bonus of cool run and putting it at -5% of normal while removing the threshold bonus of Heat containment, reducing it to the normal threshold of 72 heat max. O.o; So it's cooling slower in the video and my threshold is exactly 72.

Funny facts!

• Tabletop in real time, 31 heat generated. Time-slice to 1 second firing time. Subtract 1 second of cooling (4.83) against 1 second of heat generated (31) and we have 26.17 heat out of 30 threshold. Fire those 4 lasers while moving = shutdown. Without moving 87.23% heat.
  
• In MWO time slice to 1 second generated with 31 heat generated and 4.83 for a second of cooling and we have 86.4. The same 26.17 heat result after firing and cooling in a single second out of 86.4 threshold = 30.29% rounded up without moving.
  
• If tabletop's 36 threshold after MWO's master skills are taken into MWO as real time, even with 21 DHS with 2.0 cooling + 15% for all DHS to 4.83/sec cooling, you'd still shutdown in 5.25 seconds if you did NOT wait to fire. 31 heat generated - (4.83 dissipation * 5.25 seconds to account for cooling as you fire in the second upcoming shot) + 31 = 36.6425 heat generated = shutdown.
  
• We wouldn't need ghost heat.

Your graph is convenient but lacks any actual math. It needs to account for both the threshold and 10 full seconds. It does not.



10 cooling + 40 threshold in 10 seconds does not equal 10 cooling + 30 threshold in 10 seconds. I cannot believe you are that foolish as to even fail to see that math. Again, take it and slice 10 seconds into 1 and you will see it.

Edit 1: In fact you compare solid numbers that never change in TT, against a percentage in MWO... where the percentage changes with each amount of heatsinks. You didn't compare solid numbers in the slightest. for 10 SHS that's 40 threshold in MWO. For 20 SHs that's 50 threshold in MWO.

That doesn't change the fact that if I generate 30 heat in tabletop over the span of 10 seconds, and have 10 SHS, I have 20 heat which is 66.67% of 100. In MWO that's exactly 50% of 100, because it's 20 of 40.

20 SHS, same scenario. In 10 seconds I generate 30 heat. I sink 20 heat. I have 10 heat left over of 30 maximum. Doesn't matter how or when, whether I alpha striked once, or if I chain fired one weapon at a time and counted on my fingers. I still have 10 heat out of 30 maximum at the end of 10 seconds. That's 33.33% of 100.
20 SHS in MWO, I generate 30 heat, I have 10 heat left over....of 50 maximum. That's 20% of 100 at the end of 10 seconds.

They do not add up. In every situation, I am always cooler with the MWO heat system.

You can check my math against the heat simulator for all of MWO's heat system. Anyone who has ever played tabletop can check my math for TT's heat system. It's solid.

Edited by Koniving, 12 November 2013 - 08:43 AM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

scJazz, on 12 November 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

The engine limit thing is the reason why I've held off on Blackjacks for so long.

A mech with all energy or hot firing AC2s and it can't mount a 250 engine for fully effective 1st 10 DSHS

Easy thing to remember is that unless you have a 250+ engine even your 1st 10 DSHS are not DSHS!

I find that in a Blackjack with 13 DHS- my Sap- I can use 2 ERLL as a long-range alternative to 4 ML and get almost a minute of function at maximum fire rate before shutdown as long as I have enough self-control not to fire all six weapons simultaneously. With a 225 standard engine and ES/FF/DHS, it's considerably less expensive (and WAY more durable) than the silly ubiquitious XL engine BJ.

Similarly, an LB10-X or UAC/5 with three ML on a ballistic BJ makes for an effective and durable 'mech in similar circumstances (but with slightly less DHS- only 11 or so) without requiring the deadly XL engine.

Just because you can use an XL engine or an AC/20 doesn't mean you should, and self-control of your firing rate counts for a lot. I've had some very, very nice matches in those two Blackjacks with no AC/20 and no XL engine, and never had a 'bad' match unless I ran off on my own and got surrounded.


Anyways, what Koniving said here goes double for me. I'm frustrated to no end by people who claim that this game uses the exact same size of heat scale as tabletop, because with the ten-second turn it's flatly not true. You could argue that the ten second duration is arbitrary, but in that case so are firing rates, weapon damages, 'mech speeds, and heat sink cooling rates, which throws huge amounts of tabletop out the window. That's unacceptable, given that regardless of how much or little anyone likes it, this game -is- based on tabletop and the cooling rate -is- originally based on tabletop (hence standard heat sinks cooling .1 heat per second and doubles in-engine cooling .2 heat per second).

[stjobe]

Koniving, on 12 November 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Edit: In fact you compare solid numbers that never change in TT, against a percentage in MWO... where the percentage changes with each amount of heatsinks. You didn't compare solid numbers in the slightest. for 10 SHS that's 40 threshold in MWO. For 20 SHs that's 50 threshold in MWO.

10 SHS + 30 is 40 points of total heat capacity in both TT and MWO.
20 SHS + 30 is 50 points of total heat capacity in both TT and MWO.
That's what my graphic shows. That, and the difference in heat penalties.

Koniving, on 12 November 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

That doesn't change the fact that if I generate 30 heat in tabletop over the span of 10 seconds, and have 10 SHS, I have 20 heat which is 66.67% of 100. In MWO that's exactly 50% of 100, because it's 20 of 40.

It's 50% in TT as well, because the total heat capacity of a 10 SHS 'mech is 10+30, not 30.
The TT heat scale does not start until you've generated enough heat to fully saturate your heat sinks, whereas the MWO heat scale starts as soon as you generate any heat at all. That does not mean that the total heat capacity is any lower in TT (well it is, but only once pilot skills start coming into play).

Koniving, on 12 November 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

20 SHS, same scenario. In 10 seconds I generate 30 heat. I sink 20 heat. I have 10 heat left over of 30 maximum. Doesn't matter how or when, whether I alpha striked once, or if I chain fired one weapon at a time and counted on my fingers. I still have 10 heat out of 30 maximum at the end of 10 seconds. That's 33.33% of 100.
20 SHS in MWO, I generate 30 heat, I have 10 heat left over....of 50 maximum. That's 20% of 100 at the end of 10 seconds.

They do not add up.

A 20 SHS 'mech has 50 total heat points available in both systems; generating 30 heat puts it at 60% heat in both systems, the difference being that in the TT system, heat penalties start at 50% compared to the 100% they start at in MWO. You feel cooler, but you're at the exact same heat in both systems.

A 12 inch ruler is as long as a 30cm ruler, but 12 is less than 50% of 30.

And before you go any further; my graph was not intended to show that the MWO and TT heat systems are identical, I'm well aware they're not. I didn't make the graph for this thread, I just thought it an appropriate place to show that the heat cap in MWO is not at all different than in TT (before pilot skills). I'm also well aware that the time frames are different; again, I'm not arguing they're the same.

Koniving, on 12 November 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

In every situation, I am always cooler with the MWO heat system.

MWO has a rate of fire 2-4 times faster than TT, but the dissipation is at the same rate - that would speak for MWO being hotter than TT, not cooler, don't you think?

And it is hotter; way hotter. 10 SHS could easily keep 3 ML cool in TT for as long as you cared to fire them (9 heat generated, 10 sunk); in MWO you'd overheat in 10 alphas (40 seconds).

The reason it feels cooler is the green portion of the bars above; the safe zone in MWO is 0-100%, whereas in TT it was only 0 to (# of SHSE + 5), which would be equivalent to 0 to 37.5 - 60% in MWO.

Edited by stjobe, 12 November 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Holy cow, Jobe, why haven't you been arguing this coherently before? Seriously, every time you pop up on this it's just 'Look at this chart, it's all the same' with no explanation at all. It makes you look, frankly, relatively dumb, when this post here makes it clear that you aren't.

I'll agree that you make considerable sense here. BUT.

There is something that I think sorely changes what you're saying that you don't seem thus far to have taken into account:

Your explanation only really works if all the cooling comes simultaneously every ten seconds. The moment you have continual dissipation over time, you stop having heat sinks that actually increase capacity- or at least you should. Using dissipation-over-time heat sinks with a capacity like this drastically encourages alpha-striking, whereas the scale is used in the tabletop game in a situation where the 'mechs are firing over a time period.

I'm going to disagree with Koniving here and say that it absolutely matters whether the 'mech is firing weapons one at a time or all at once- the tabletop calculates based on individual points because otherwise holy heck the bookkeeping you would need to do. Each turn would take hours if you just have two lances fighting each other, nevermind matches with sixteen or more 'mechs involved.

This also helps to account for convergence- if the weapons are fired at differing times during the round, then -of course- they're going to be hitting different locations. While it's possible to keep an MWO laser on the same component location over time, it's at best very difficult against any pilot who manages to keep moving well, and virtually impossible against someone going over 100 kph. The same goes, only moreso, for ballistics shots and missile spreads.

On that basis, my argument is/would be that given the highest heat weapon (ERPPC) generates 15 heat per shot, and the heat penalties start at 5 heat, it's likely that tabletop is actually using an effectively 40-point scale. This enables the use of an ERPPC without suffering heat penalties (any amount of cooling will immediately take you away from that penalty point and it therefore never actually applies) allows for simultaneous shooting of smaller weapons, and averts the 'alpha strike mentality'.

Applying such a scale (yes, with the heat penalties that will make being at something other than 100% actually matter) would change this game in a way that makes it -far- more stompy robot battle and would most likely allow the developers to cut the armor and internal structure values back down to or close to their original values. It wouldn't even require change in weapon firing rates, really.

[Alaskan Nobody]

I think I can see both sides of this.... but I am far to unskilled at the maths involved to be able to even think of arguing either side of it coherently.

[stjobe]

Regarding dissipation, I'd like to clarify that the chart and my argument above doesn't really care about dissipation, they are just about the heat capacity (or perhaps more correctly total heat capacity); i.e. how much heat could a 'mech generate at once without shutting down from overheating. Many people seem to think that a 'mech in MWO could generate much more heat than it could in TT, but as my scales show it's actually the same if you disregard pilot skills (which indeed does allow MWO 'mechs to generate an additional 20% heat at once).

Now dissipation is another beast altogether, and it is easy enough to understand why people conflate it with number of heat sinks or subtract it from heat capacity, since in TT the dissipation simply was the number of SHSE per turn.

Now on the face of it, MWO has the same number, # of SHSE per 10 seconds (plus pilot skills, but we'll disregard those for now). However, that fails to take into account that the rate of fire has increased by a factor of 2-3, so heat dissipation is 2-3 times slower in MWO than in TT, and that is why our 'mechs keep overheating from firing weapons that in TT wouldn't raise our heat onto the heat scale at all.

The most used example is a stock AWS-8Q with three PPCs and 28 heat sinks; firing back-to-back alphas, that 'mech generates 30 heat per turn and dissipates 28, so it climbs the residual heat scale at a rate of two points per turn, suffering its first heat penalty on the fourth turn (having gone to 6 on the heat scale on the third turn), and suffers an unavoidable shutdown after 15 turns (if it hasn't failed an override or suffered an ammo explosion before that).

In MWO the same 'mech overheats after 12 seconds, on the third alpha. Why does it do that?

Because while the PPC has gotten an increased fire rate by a factor of 2.5, dissipation is still on the same rate as in TT. So instead of cooling 28 heat between alphas, the 28 SHSs can only dissipate (2.8 * 4) 11.2 heat before the 'mech generates another 30 heat - putting it at (18.8 + 30) 48.8 heat (out of a total capacity of 58). During the next cooldown, another 11.2 heat is dissipated, putting it at 37.6 heat, and then the third alpha generates another 30 heat, putting it at 67.6, or 116% heat and it shuts down.

3 alphas vs TT's 15; clearly MWO runs way hotter than TT.

So the solution seems simple; just increase dissipation to match the increase in rate of fire, right? Well, sadly it's not so easy. If MWO's dissipation was increased by a factor of 2.5, the AWS-8Q would be able to sink 7 heat per second, or 28 heat per PPC cooldown, and the 8Q would not overheat until it had fired 29 alphas back-to-back.

But that's more than the 15 alphas it could do in TT? So now MWO would run way cooler than TT instead? Why is this?

It's because TT's residual heat scale (the red part of the bars above) starts not at zero but at (# of SHSE) and is 30 heat points long, meaning once you've added 30 heat to it, you're shutting down. At 2 heat per turn, that is 15 turns.

In MWO, the heat scale is as long as the total heat capacity (58 heat points in the case of our 8Q), and at 2 heat per "turn" that is 29 "turns" to get to the end.

So looking at it that way I must agree with the ones saying we have a larger heat capacity in MWO than in TT; not in the sense of "how much heat can you instantly generate without shutting down", because as I've shown that is the same in both systems (without pilot skills), but in the sense "if dissipation was the same, how long would it take to shut down".

Now of course the dissipation isn't the same so we shut down way faster in MWO, but at the same time pilot skills allow us to fire 20% larger alphas - and having no heat penalties until 100% heat only aggravates that problem; a 5 PPC Awesome-8Q could generate 50 heat, but would be at 22 heat on the residual heat scale after doing so, suffering major movement penalties, major to-hit penalties, possibly shutting down and possibly dying from an ammo explosion (had it had any ammo). In MWO, nothing untowards happen at 86% heat (50/58), and the AWS can even fire another salvo of 2 PPCs without breaking 100% heat if it waits just a second over the 4-second cooldown.

Edited by stjobe, 12 November 2013 - 03:44 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Again, though, Jobe, you're taking everything into account under the assumption that a 'mech is always supposed to be firing its weapons simultaneously every ten seconds, rather than spread out over a ten-second period. I do agree that having heat sinking at a comparable rate to fire rate (adjusted based on the original ten-second turn) would put things out of whack to a degree they aren't even near under current rules in favor of MWO 'mechs running cooler.

However, I disagree that the heat sinks add heat capacity (or at least the degree of increase in heat capacity you're attributing to them) on tabletop, because regardless that the heat is calculated simultaneously, the intent is to represent weapons being fired at varying points within the ten-second turn, meaning that the increased heat capacity is neither needed nor being portrayed in the way you're asserting here. It's a definitively stated intent by the creators and various subsequent rights-owners of the Battletech property that alpha-striking, firing all of one's weapons simultaneously, is not the norm, even when piloting a 'mech whose weapons all have similar or the same operational range. This means that a key foundation element of your argument, that the weapons are all firing simultaneously but the 'mech sees no heat scale penalty, is not valid- or at least not represented in the way you are interpereting the original rules.

Edited by Elli Gujar, 15 November 2013 - 11:05 AM.