16 replies to this topic

[Shadey99]

Basically instead of the static piloting skill tree we have now, I would like each mech or at least each mech class to have specific piloting skills or even simply unique skills within a more generalized tree.

So for instance now we have Basic class skills such as: cool run, kinetic burst, Twist X, and Heat Containment... And 'Elite' skills such as Speed Tweak and Fast Fire (which give a 2x bonus to the first tier when you have them all)... And finally a 'Master' level which gives a extra module slot.

I would suggest we customize these kinds of options to better fill the original goals of a mech. Or at least the goals of a class of mechs.

So for instance the Awesome could have extra Elite skills for heat management to fill it's energy fire support role better. Or a Cicada could have sensor skills and access to speed tweak to stay one of the fastest mechs and provide a 'scout' role better. Spiders could gain boosts to Jump Jets such as increased lift, range, or speed during jump. Ravens could get bonuses to sensor range, a boost to BAP range, and other EIW boosts. Or perhaps we give lights a skill that boosts internals by 10 to 15% (which for most lights isn't even a single extra point) or reduction on falling damage by a similar percent. Or Assaults gain skills for resistance to criticals to their internals.

If we wanted to go further we could even bring the torso and arm movement variant traits into the skill trees. Though that is beyond the scope of this suggestion.

Basically this concept would allow a mech to retrain certain traits through the skill trees to give them a more unique feel and retain traits established in lore.

[Stingray Productions]

maybe, it's not too bad of an idea. I think there should probably just be more efficiencies to unlock, they exist for all mechs, but you choose your direction of skills to unlock. Just like in mechcommander 2, a pilot being promoted could choose a number of skills to choose from on the tier they were being promoted to. An LRM specialist, or perahps a Jump Jet or even a sensor specialist. But once they chose that skill, they could not choose any more skills from that tier. In that sense, an Awesome (or energy loaded) mech might choose a heat management skill if he preferred.

[Shadey99]

Stingray1234, on 12 November 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

maybe, it's not too bad of an idea. I think there should probably just be more efficiencies to unlock, they exist for all mechs, but you choose your direction of skills to unlock. Just like in mechcommander 2, a pilot being promoted could choose a number of skills to choose from on the tier they were being promoted to. An LRM specialist, or perahps a Jump Jet or even a sensor specialist. But once they chose that skill, they could not choose any more skills from that tier. In that sense, an Awesome (or energy loaded) mech might choose a heat management skill if he preferred.

This doesn't preclude adding such multiple trees, but for bringing character to mechs a 'mech' or even 'variant' tree and a 'weight class' tree would increase the 'role warfare' that is so lacking in MWO. If you want things that stretch across mechs you want to look at the GXP pilot tree.

However unlike those games there is only one pilot: Us. Those games had multiple pilots. If you wanted something to equal those you may want to instead add them to the section which currently has module upgrades/unlocks. So you could become say... a Ballistics 'expert' or 'LRM expert' and these would unlock with GXP (and make PGI more money on converting mech XP to GXP).

Of course that is out of scope of my original idea...

Btw some other useful mech/variant skills could be things like: lock on time (for LRMs/SSRMs) which may help to increase the number of trebs and catapults roaming around... Or for a master level slot a single new hard point, such as a CT hardpoint on an A1 for mounting a TAG.

[Karl Streiger]

Shadey99, on 12 November 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

However unlike those games there is only one pilot: Us. Those games had multiple pilots. If you wanted something to equal those you may want to instead add them to the section which currently has module upgrades/unlocks. So you could become say... a Ballistics 'expert' or 'LRM expert' and these would unlock with GXP (and make PGI more money on converting mech XP to GXP).

no i think we have multiple pilots - simple because we don't survive a head shot
That means for each mech you can skill another pilot.
(Like you have for example in WoT - you have a garrage - with crewman from different countrys)

a similar garrage with pilots from different great houses would be a enourmous improvement.
You choose a pilot and automaticaly your house affiliation changes.
You should also be able to brand a mech to a great house - making it exclusive for that faction.

So you can have a tree were you choose between different pilot skills (and like in WoT you can add a penalty in Pilot XP gain when the pilot got killed or injured during combat)

So you have global XP (for adding mech labs, techs, weapons supply....)

- and you have pilot/mech XP for (modding mech, increase efficience of special weapons or behaviour)


Oh yes it is a complet change to what we have now.
The vanilla choice would be a kind of three tree system:
mech prestige -> defining how you can improve that Mech
pilot XP -> defining how you can improve that pilots ability to interact with that Mech
Global XP -> defining how you can support Mech or Pilot -> how many supplies, salvage and spare parts you can get per battle

[fandre]

I voted for mech specific skills but I'd like to see it only as a small addition to the existing skilltree. Therefore a lot of skill should be available to every mech in the game but some specific to selected mechs. Maybe not every mech/mechvariant has extra skills.

[Shadey99]

Karl Streiger, on 13 November 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

no i think we have multiple pilots - simple because we don't survive a head shot
That means for each mech you can skill another pilot.

Err... no offense, but we only have 1 pilot for our mechs... Which is us. You may want that sort of thing added so we have multiple avatars who could have different skills... But that is not how MWO is now.

Karl Streiger, on 13 November 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

Oh yes it is a complet change to what we have now.
The vanilla choice would be a kind of three tree system:
mech prestige -> defining how you can improve that Mech
pilot XP -> defining how you can improve that pilots ability to interact with that Mech
Global XP -> defining how you can support Mech or Pilot -> how many supplies, salvage and spare parts you can get per battle

I've never played WoT (The game just refuses to run on my machine), but that sounds way to much like war thunder. Which is a very very different assumption than BT/MW has. In BT and MW specifically everything was about the pilot, mechs were static outside of using the existing blocks (total weight, loaded weight, criticals, equipment, weapons, and armor)to customize designs.

MWO interprets that by giving us piloting skills that make mechs function better for us once we have experience in them. The mech itself never 'improves'. However currently all mechs function better for us in the same ways.

[Karl Streiger]

Shadey99, on 13 November 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Err... no offense, but we only have 1 pilot for our mechs... Which is us. You may want that sort of thing added so we have multiple avatars who could have different skills... But that is not how MWO is now.

No offense taken - we have NO PILOT at all.
A single person would ever be able to pilot 52 Mechs alone. OK on the other hand combat in BattleTech will not be that kind of arena combat we have actually.

Next to that piloting a Mech is more complex as using WSAD and Mouse. So a single pilot will hardly pilot more as 2 or 3 Mechs in his carrer (even Kai Allard did only have his Centurion or in one occurance a Stormcrow)

As a pilot I would try to learn specific skills rather than global ones. So an Atlas pilot will hardly ever pilot a Jenner.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 13 November 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[Shadey99]

Karl Streiger, on 13 November 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Next to that piloting a Mech is more complex as using WSAD and Mouse. So a single pilot will hardly pilot more as 2 or 3 Mechs in his carrer (even Kai Allard did only have his Centurion or in one occurance a Stormcrow)

Well requiring us to elite 3 variants is the start of why we pilot so many mechs...

However classic lore (and the original Multiplayer BT on Genie) suggests that all pilots started off in light mechs and tended to slowly graduate to larger machines. Grayson Death Carlyle for instance started in a Locust (Which he gives to Lori), he then gets a Shadowhawk, later he gets a Marauder, and in the end he is piloting a Victor. His Wife Lori piloted the same Locust, another Shadowhawk, a Zeus, and Grayson's Victor after he died. Though other examples may pilot 2 or 3 lights or mediums in their career without really ever moving 'up' or some would only ever really pilot one mech over their entire career.

While what we get in MWO is extreme, it is actually not that strange (ignoring multiple variants). I have as much experience in my collection as a 30, 40, or even 60 year career in the lore. I also have elited if not mastered: Locusts, Spiders, Cicadas, Shadowhawks, Catapults, Jagermechs, Thunderbolts, Battlemasters, and Highlanders. So 9 mechs in a 'life times' worth of career doesn't seem that odd. The fact that I went Catapults, Cicadas, Spiders, Highlanders, Jagers, Locusts, Thunderbolts, Battlemasters, and then Shadowhawks is...

Edited by Shadey99, 13 November 2013 - 06:33 AM.

[fandre]

Would you prefer a system, where everyone is starting with light mechs, reduced XP-gain, e.g. 10 XP per match or something alike and tousends of XP to unlock heavier mechs? That would reflect the lore ... but experienced player would have an absolute advantage and casual players would not play the game.

I see no sense in following the lore or timeline. This is a game in the MW/BT setting and not a history lesson. IMHO they should try to make the most fun out of it, not following "historical correctness".

Edited by fandre, 13 November 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[Pwnocchio]

I don't know if class specific skills are the answer or simply class specific traits.

They certainly need to do something to make Lights and Mediums more effective individually.

Perhaps make the range at which radar detects mechs based on the target mechs weight class (Assaults = + 50% detection range, Heavies = +25% detection range, Mediums = default (800M), Lights = -25% detection range.

Maybe do a better job of properly sizing mechs based on tonnage as well so there aren't Heavy Mechs with an equivalent sized hitbox to mediums.

Maybe requiring the tonnage of jump jets to relate directly to the weight class of a mech, so JJ's for lights = 0.25 tons, mediums = 0.5 tons, heavies = 1 ton, Assaults = 1.5 tons.

[fandre]

Pwnocchio, on 13 November 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

They certainly need to do something to make Lights and Mediums more effective individually.

Perhaps make the range at which radar detects mechs based on the target mechs weight class (Assaults = + 50% detection range, Heavies = +25% detection range, Mediums = default (800M), Lights = -25% detection range.

Maybe do a better job of properly sizing mechs based on tonnage as well so there aren't Heavy Mechs with an equivalent sized hitbox to mediums.

Maybe requiring the tonnage of jump jets to relate directly to the weight class of a mech, so JJ's for lights = 0.25 tons, mediums = 0.5 tons, heavies = 1 ton, Assaults = 1.5 tons.

Very good points but this should be standard and not part of a skill system or you have skill to improve the values (5% smaler radar signature, 10% more powerful jj ...).

Edited by fandre, 13 November 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[Shadey99]

fandre, on 13 November 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Would you prefer a system, where everyone is starting with light mechs, reduced XP-gain, e.g. 10 XP per match or something alike and tousends of XP to unlock heavier mechs? That would reflect the lore ... but experienced player would have an absolute advantage and casual players would not play the game.

I see no sense in following the lore or timeline. This is a game in the MW/BT setting and not a history lesson. IMHO they should try to make the most fun out of it, not following "historical correctness".

We had actually gotten pretty far off topic, really... I do think the game needs a solid core of lore (all games do for anyone to care about them), but I don't think we need to go by the books completely. We certainly didn't have 'piloting skills' per se in TT though we did have piloting and gunnery stats/skills.

That said... Part of MWO is historical. It was meant to follow through the resurgence after the 4th Succession War and into the clan invasion era. Which makes it somewhat like a WW II game in that everything has a certain historical flavor whether they are strictly historical or not.

Pwnocchio, on 13 November 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

I don't know if class specific skills are the answer or simply class specific traits.

They certainly need to do something to make Lights and Mediums more effective individually.

Perhaps make the range at which radar detects mechs based on the target mechs weight class (Assaults = + 50% detection range, Heavies = +25% detection range, Mediums = default (800M), Lights = -25% detection range.

Maybe do a better job of properly sizing mechs based on tonnage as well so there aren't Heavy Mechs with an equivalent sized hitbox to mediums.

Maybe requiring the tonnage of jump jets to relate directly to the weight class of a mech, so JJ's for lights = 0.25 tons, mediums = 0.5 tons, heavies = 1 ton, Assaults = 1.5 tons.

Part of this concept did come from earlier talks on 'fixing' mediums. And I'm all for things like resizing them so Shadowhawks are no longer taller than many assaults. We've also discussed detection by size/mass before and I'm in favor of larger mechs being easier to detect and smaller mechs less so (rather than pure range bonuses).

JJ weight though cannot be changed without changing all stock builds. Much like weapon weights.

Getting back to the original topic... Piloting skills add some interesting options. Even if only half the skills are unique to mech weight class, mech type, or variant then we will add far more flavor. This could go hand in hand with things like a reduction in speed tweak for heavier mechs (to spread out speed ranges more) or not and just give each class/mech/or variant more uniqueness. Either way I see it as being pure win for us.

[Durant Carlyle]

An idea similar to this was actually what they wanted to do with pilot skills. It was more being able to customize our pilot for the role we wanted to play in the game. See Dev Blog 3 and Dev Blog 4.

For those that haven't seen this stuff and want a look at what the developers' original vision of MW:O was, check these out...

Dev Blog 0 - Reboot
Dev Blog 1 - Community Warfare
Dev Blog 2 - Information Warfare
Dev Blog 3 - Role Warfare
Dev Blog 4 - Role Warfare Continued
Dev Blog 5 - 'Mech Warfare
Dev Blog 6 - 'Mech Lab

[Shadey99]

Durant Carlyle, on 16 November 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

An idea similar to this was actually what they wanted to do with pilot skills. It was more being able to customize our pilot for the role we wanted to play in the game. See Dev Blog 3 and Dev Blog 4.

It is vaguely like those, yes. Though this is not about 'roles' like scout/assault/etc.

This is about making distinctive mechs. If this was implemented down to the mech level than we would be asking 'what special skills can I get for this mech?' when a hero came out or a new mech was released into the game. Besides 'fixing' mediums the other core to the idea came from all the people that say that mechs lack unique traits and how mechs like the Panther have no point in being added because they have less hardpoints than existing mechs. Well if the Panther had skills that made it decidedly different than a Jenner than each would retain purpose.

If we have weight class specific skills as well as mech specific (or variant specific) ones, than we can even give say a Jenner and Cicada similar mech skills but since they pull from different weight class skill pools they would retain a different flavor from each other. What I find lacking is this flavor in mechs. To much comes down to: hardpoint type/location/number, JJs or not, ECm or not, and beyond that shape/size. Adding unique or at least variable skills to this list will provide a more lore based increase in the flavor to each mech.

[fandre]

Roles based on mechs or mech variants would be ok if I can change them. But I dont like the idea of becoming a LRM, Recon or Brawler specialist as a/one pilot. Especially when I play a lot of different roles and mechs. Do I have to play a brawler as a LRM specialist against specialised brawlers, because i had to decide my focus earlier?

Maybe the problem can be solved by introducing "pilots" to MWO. Say, you can have a multitude of pilots with different specialisations/skills/xp levels but as player you asign them any time to any mech you like.

To be honest, this system would annoy me a lot because I have to play a lot more to get better "pilots" to have not a disadventage against other players. And I realy dont like RPG elements in a FPS where the result of a match should directly depend on the skills of the player not on the stats of any kind of virtual pilot.

Edited by fandre, 20 November 2013 - 04:20 AM.

[Doomliger]

why not have some thing like these? mech specific traits.



1. Awesome gets improved heat dissipation from laser weapons/ PPC. This would allow for hotter builds to work on them. Eg Putting Awesomes to be the multiple PPC carriers that they were supposed to be (cannon)

2. Hunchbacks get improved protection vs weapons fired at them from 300metres. (improved survivabilty whilst supporting/brawling) - this again would be cannon and further distinguish them from shadowhawks.

3. Trebs get increased heat dissipation from missile type weapons. this allows for more sustained long range missile supports.

4. Kintaros gets reduced heat generation from missile type weapons. - See how this is different from trebs. this allows for larger alphas with SRMs without overheating the mech but the standard heat dissipation won't allow for sustained firefights without commiting to lots of heat sinks.

5. Atlas could get something like reduced all incoming damage by %. This would put them back as the premium tanks as opposed to the current meta where jumpjets allowing other mechs to take more damage by easier spreading.

This list is just an example and not exclusive.

same with single heatsinks and older type equipment, they could have a ''positive'' side so that they can be taken rather than a grind to get the mechs up for double heat sinks.

EG. single heat sinks allow for larger total heat containment. FF armorr give greater % of protection etc.

[Shadey99]

Doomliger, on 08 December 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

1. Awesome gets improved heat dissipation from laser weapons/ PPC. This would allow for hotter builds to work on them. Eg Putting Awesomes to be the multiple PPC carriers that they were supposed to be (cannon)

I did say "So for instance the Awesome could have extra Elite skills for heat management to fill it's energy fire support role better." Maybe it gets a boost to heat dissipation so it has '1.6' DHS instead of the current 1.4... Or maybe it's a boost to heat cap (more shots before shutdown). There are allot of options for how to do it.

Doomliger, on 08 December 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

2. Hunchbacks get improved protection vs weapons fired at them from 300metres. (improved survivabilty whilst supporting/brawling) - this again would be cannon and further distinguish them from shadowhawks.

5. Atlas could get something like reduced all incoming damage by %. This would put them back as the premium tanks as opposed to the current meta where jumpjets allowing other mechs to take more damage by easier spreading.

Now these two I find hard to support. A raw damage reduction is a bad precedent. It would also require much more coding work as no such thing like 'damage reduction' is currently checked when applying damage. Providing a boost to FF or standard armor values, increasing the 'armor cap', or boosting internals are better ideas as those stats exist.