90 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 18 November 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

That... is not my experience, with the CN9-D or other variants. I'll go and test it though, I won't outright call you wrong as I'm unsure now

I actually just took this build into our last Marik league game, and I've been driving it as my exclusive missile boat for a while now. Centurion are awesome with missile tubing; remember this is the same setup that lets you fire all three SRM6s at the same time too. I wish more 'mechs had missile tubing that scaled like this!

If you want comedy try to funnel an LRM/20 through a narc port on something.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Victor Morson, on 18 November 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

I actually just took this build into our last Marik league game, and I've been driving it as my exclusive missile boat for a while now. Centurion are awesome with missile tubing; remember this is the same setup that lets you fire all three SRM6s at the same time too. I wish more 'mechs had missile tubing that scaled like this!

If you want comedy try to funnel an LRM/20 through a narc port on something.

Welp, I'm willing to take your word for it. I still want to test it anyway, though; I feel as if I might have managed to miss a trick with my favourite chassis

And with regards to the latter point, I remember seeing an X5 with 2LRM20. The rain... the rain never stopped.

Chewed to pieces by a pair of AMS the other end, mind, but interminable rain nonetheless.

[Evil Ed]

Awesome-8R with 4xLRM15A + TAG in the head hardpoint.

[Rascula]

Evil Ed, on 18 November 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Awesome-8R with 4xLRM15A + TAG in the head hardpoint.

This... definitely this.. Its an excellent piece of kit with the potential to carry 2000+ missiles if your brave enough to stick an XL in there. The heavy rain never stops in an Awesome 8R.

Alternatively you can loose one LRM15 and stick in a BAP.. but its personal taste.

[C E Dwyer]

thing is lrm boats only work on newbs that are stupid enough to stand still, once you get into matches with people that know how to deal with your lrm boat you'll have a big pile of metal that will cause fail for you, and wasted tonnage for your team, only one map is really viable for lrms at all levels and that alpine.

your better off learning to shot semi well

honestly

[ManaValkyrie]

Cathy, on 18 November 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

thing is lrm boats only work on newbs that are stupid enough to stand still, once you get into matches with people that know how to deal with your lrm boat you'll have a big pile of metal that will cause fail for you, and wasted tonnage for your team, only one map is really viable for lrms at all levels and that alpine.

your better off learning to shot semi well

honestly

I play in a variety of different ELO groups depending on whether I am solo or grouped and who I am grouped with. I know plenty of players who can and do make missile mechs work regardless of the opposition. Yes some maps and match configurations can be harder to pump out high damage, however a smart player can still make it work.

Plenty of people think that just because LRMs are not highly competitive or worth the tonnage (At all levels) tend to ignore AMS in favour of more weapons/ammo. Which means that they are going to get chewed up by mechs with LRMs, especially the LRM5 launchers in chain mode.

Even ECM can be countered by smart players, use TAG to pierce ECM and get lock on. If your chassis doesn't have the hardpoints to really allow for TAG, you can even dumbfire LRMs at targets, and Yes I have killed ECM mechs without TAG and Locks. If you are really struggling bring yourself a UAV module, deploy it near enemies, fall back and lock onto the ECM mechs. It takes a couple of seconds longer to get the lock, then unload.

No a missile mech is not just an easy mode click and fire from the back of your group. People do play that way I don't argue that but a Missile heavy mech is actually more damaging and effective with visual LOS to target inside the 700m mark to take full advantage of artemis. And for most missile mechs the most effective firing ranges on maps is actually around the 350m mark, where you can back up missiles with medium lasers taken for point defense.

There are a variety of effective missile platforms that can be used depending on how you want to play, you can go for high density salvo builds and swamp ECM, do a lot of high hit damage at a lower rate of fire, even then if no ams, you can switch to chain fire even on the bigger missile packs. The other method is to utilize smaller missile packs such as 5's and 10's, higher fire rate, lower density. 4 5's or 2 10's is the smallest pairing I would recommend. That allows you to pack a LRM20 salvo to punch through AMS or smaller 5/10's in chain fire against targets that have no ams or are being hit by multiple missile mechs.

In other words LRM centric builds can be just as effective when utilized correctly and imaginatively by players.

[Rascula]

ManaValkyrie, on 18 November 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

I play in a variety of different ELO groups depending on whether I am solo or grouped and who I am grouped with. I know plenty of players who can and do make missile mechs work regardless of the opposition. Yes some maps and match configurations can be harder to pump out high damage, however a smart player can still make it work.

Plenty of people think that just because LRMs are not highly competitive or worth the tonnage (At all levels) tend to ignore AMS in favour of more weapons/ammo. Which means that they are going to get chewed up by mechs with LRMs, especially the LRM5 launchers in chain mode.

Even ECM can be countered by smart players, use TAG to pierce ECM and get lock on. If your chassis doesn't have the hardpoints to really allow for TAG, you can even dumbfire LRMs at targets, and Yes I have killed ECM mechs without TAG and Locks. If you are really struggling bring yourself a UAV module, deploy it near enemies, fall back and lock onto the ECM mechs. It takes a couple of seconds longer to get the lock, then unload.

No a missile mech is not just an easy mode click and fire from the back of your group. People do play that way I don't argue that but a Missile heavy mech is actually more damaging and effective with visual LOS to target inside the 700m mark to take full advantage of artemis. And for most missile mechs the most effective firing ranges on maps is actually around the 350m mark, where you can back up missiles with medium lasers taken for point defense.

There are a variety of effective missile platforms that can be used depending on how you want to play, you can go for high density salvo builds and swamp ECM, do a lot of high hit damage at a lower rate of fire, even then if no ams, you can switch to chain fire even on the bigger missile packs. The other method is to utilize smaller missile packs such as 5's and 10's, higher fire rate, lower density. 4 5's or 2 10's is the smallest pairing I would recommend. That allows you to pack a LRM20 salvo to punch through AMS or smaller 5/10's in chain fire against targets that have no ams or are being hit by multiple missile mechs.

In other words LRM centric builds can be just as effective when utilized correctly and imaginatively by players.

Well said, Its easy to spam missiles and fail badly with LRM's, playing with them successfully in a team or on your own though requires excellent spacial awareness, an ability to think ahead, a touch of luck and a lot of skill. The play style isnt for everyone and can be very hard on new players but when it works it works very well indeed.

[Koniving]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 18 November 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

2 missile hardpoints with 10 tubes between them does not an LRM30 boat make.

Your point about kiting is a good one, however.

Victor Morson, on 18 November 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

The Centurion upscales to a 15 tube when you put an LRM/15 in it, which lets both launches fire simultaneously. It's exceptional at chucking huge balls of death, not streams.

Arnold J Rimmer, on 18 November 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

That... is not my experience, with the CN9-D or other variants. I'll go and test it though, I won't outright call you wrong as I'm unsure now

I will. Vid's uploading.. Will edit this when ready. Two LRM-15s fire in 20, then 10. Not in 30. There is no change to a 15 tube launcher. One at a time they fire 10, then 5.


Note that it says it will be ready in "65 minutes" as of this edit. Closed/open door tests, mechbay, testing grounds, actual match. It always fires 20, 10. One at a time, it fires 10, 5. It does not, under any circumstances, upgrade to 15 tubes. It probably won't (if ever) until a hardpoint overhaul hits it and even then I think it'll have limits of up to 10 tubes + 2 pods of 'up to 10 tubes' for the CN9-A (don't quote me on that).

Vid's ready as soon as the vid has a picture in it.

(Someone who frequents my vids says 3 months ago it did. Didn't have a CN9-D back then so I can't dispute it. I know like 5 months ago LB-10 had a unique barrel on Centurions, but meh.)

Edited by Koniving, 18 November 2013 - 04:40 PM.

[Dicerson]

Koniving, on 17 November 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Credentials (ignore the mech's tiny size, field of view 100 so I can feel like I'm leaning back in my mech; instead pay attention to the number of mechs owned).



That said...

Lights:
The Jenner 7D is a good LRM user, slap in 2 LRM-5s. Remain at high speed.
Any Raven could play the role but doing so is ill advised. Too easy to get legged and no jumpjets proves to be a problem. 4X can get around this, but eh. Better off with an AC/20 there.

Mediums:

• The Hunchback 4J and Centurion A can both make modest LRM boats. The 4J would be better due to its smaller size.
  
• ~Most~ Kintaros provide excellent high speed LRM boats.
  
• Shadowhawk 2D2 ~can~ be used as LRM support and works well for the role. Mine carries almost exclusively LRMs and regularly pulls in 300 to 700 damage.

Trebuchets are designed to be LRM boats but until their debut on the upcoming fixes it is best to avoid them.




Heavies:

• The Quickdraw 4H with 3 LRM-5s can make a good high speed LRM harasser.
  
• Thunderbolts 5S and 9SE both provide interesting LRM boats but play surprisingly different (5S = RT LRMs, 9SE = LT LRMs).
  
• Catapults C1, C4, and A1. C1 for efficiency and close range fighting. C4 for reasonable missile power and slight laser backup. A1 for truly devastating LRMs.
  
• All Orions have good LRM potential.

Note: Despite their tabletop nature as running LRM-spammers with lasers and cannons, Dragons make awful LRM users. Don't even bother to use them for LRMs unless something changes with their hardpoint art overhaul.


Jager A can use LRMs but it doesn't have a good track record. Seriously, a Dragon is more satisfying as an LRM boat and it's awful. Don't know what it is.

Assaults:

• The Awesomes 8R (for more missiles) and 8T (for large missiles + lots of direct fire weapons) as well as the 8V make good LRM users.
  
• Victor 9S doesn't have good "zomg LRM" potential, but it has great "trollurms" potential. People hate the spam it can do with 3 LRM-15s.
  
• Many stalkers are good with LRMs. Currently the 3H is the best suited if you want your volleys powerful and fast.
  
• The Highlander 733 is the best for LRM-boating.

Mine uses a 15 and 3 10s with an AC/2, ML, and tag. It sports 6 tons LRM ammo and 4 tons AC/2 ammo and the maximum XL engine for high speed and spam.

(It is a relentlessly bombarding LRM + AC/2 rig. If you're a medium or up, fighting against this rig is like going through an earthquake while standing in a hurricane with a wrestler holding you by the shirt and punching you repeatedly in the face. Try to get a shot in on it, I dare ya. This was built to charge against 4 and 6 PPC stalkers when Ghost Heat didn't exist and frequently succeeded in taking out more than one back to back).

• Battlemaster 1SR is an excellent LRM boat. Warning: Currently only "15 tube" launchers appear on the arms regardless of what you attach.
  
• Of the Atlases, despite how LRMs are actually the K's stock specialty, the DDC is the superior LRM user (gets 3 separate launchers and better tube counts).

I used smurfy to build the described Highlander, i can't gauge the price cuz smurfy is bugged and makes ammo priced in the millions-billions range :/ Until its fixed my LRM boating days are gonna be a long way off.

[Koniving]

Shadowcrusnik, on 19 November 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

I used smurfy to build the described Highlander.

You can delete stuff in quotes to shorten them. The price does seem a bit inflated. But here you go with 10 tons for ammo. Bap optional.

Some vids that have had various versions of it.

Spoiler

Later half here.


Here.


And the most recent video but not the most recent use.

Edited by Koniving, 19 November 2013 - 06:45 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

Victor Morson, on 18 November 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

There are no good non-pure LRM 'mechs. Anything with LRMs is more or less dedicated to LRMs, or inferior. This is largely due to the number of missiles required to break AMS systems.

Again with the uninformed opinions. It's true that you'll need to be able to fire at least 30 LRMs at a time to be reasonably effective, but that leaves a whole lot of room for other weapons if you're fairly good at actually hitting your targets. 2x LRM15 + Artemis, TAG and whatever backup weapons you can fit will work just fine.
If you're good at picking your targets you don't need a crapload of ammo either, I've got builds with as little as 2 tons of LRM ammo that still get the job done, and most of my actual boats have 6 tons at the most, so I can fit more backup weapons.
Keep in mind that adding weapons to a build helps kill a target faster, as long as you can put them on target and still manage the heat. If each target dies seconds into the fight it doesn't matter if you run out of ammo halfway through a match, all the teammates that are still alive because of you will finish the job.

[stkxie]

To each it's own. I hate when people bring to the game lrm100 that move at 38ish kph and then complain that LRMs are way too weak in the game. You are too slow to be anywhere in range of the battle and by the time you make it there half of the team is dead. I personally prefer mech with high mobility and descent damage output and that's why stalker 5m & 5xLRM5 is my choice of the missile boat. It kicks *** see for yourself.

Edited by stkxie, 07 December 2013 - 12:52 AM.

[Victor Morson]

The 20/10 split you are seeing is still grouped up enough as far as AMS is concerned, it's one cluster. By the time the lead missile connects, the AMS will be too late to hit the rear missile. So effectively, as far as it matters, it's one clustered shot.

Other mechs stream this out much differently, and allows AMS to mow the missiles up as the slide in.

***** n stuff, on 20 November 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

Again with the uninformed opinions. It's true that you'll need to be able to fire at least 30 LRMs at a time to be reasonably effective, but that leaves a whole lot of room for other weapons if you're fairly good at actually hitting your targets. 2x LRM15 + Artemis, TAG and whatever backup weapons you can fit will work just fine.

But that's the issue, right there. The kinds of 'mechs that you need to run to be effective at LRMs (Read: Mid 80s minimum) means that you will simply not have the space for "whatever backup weapons you can fit." Unless you skimp on ammunition.

The bottom line is it is always better to have 2 extra tons of LRM ammo than 2 medium lasers on an LRM boat. Otherwise you are sacing a ton of damage potential for a couple weapons that won't ultimately change anything.

***** n stuff, on 20 November 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

If you're good at picking your targets you don't need a crapload of ammo either, I've got builds with as little as 2 tons of LRM ammo that still get the job done,

If you are investing 12+ tons into a weapons system and take 2 tons of ammo, in particular for a weapon system notorious for it's ammo usage and need to pump tons of ammunition if you want to use indirect/counter AMS, you can't seriously consider this a smart move.

***** n stuff, on 20 November 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

and most of my actual boats have 6 tons at the most, so I can fit more backup weapons.

Your boats... you are doing them wrong. Badly wrong. You are trading hundreds of damage potential in that ammunition for backup weapons that you should never have to use.

***** n stuff, on 20 November 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

Keep in mind that adding weapons to a build helps kill a target faster, as long as you can put them on target and still manage the heat. If each target dies seconds into the fight it doesn't matter if you run out of ammo halfway through a match, all the teammates that are still alive because of you will finish the job.

It mattes a whole lot if one of the mechs on your team runs out of ammo halfway through the match. I don't want my teammates skimping on ammo and going "Oh it's OK, you can deal with it for me, right?"

stkxie, on 07 December 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

To each it's own. I hate when people bring to the game lrm100 that move at 38ish kph and then complain that LRMs are way too weak in the game. You are too slow to be anywhere in range of the battle and by the time you make it there half of the team is dead. I personally prefer mech with high mobility and descent damage output and that's why stalker 5m & 5xLRM5 is my choice of the missile boat. It kicks *** see for yourself.

It's my opinion the current king of missile boats is the Shadow Hawk 2D2 right now. You can run a few different missile fittings to bring it to 30 total, and it's got all the strengths of the Centurion 9D as an mboat with none of the weaknesses. The arm mounted TAG uses a little of the extra tonnage, but is incredibly useful. It can jump and the launchers are high mounted, meaning you can fire them as you JUST clear high terrain.

Overall though, mediums in general are the best mboats.

Stalkers are generally bad missile boats for the reasons you are saying: Maneuverability. The BattleMaster is way better suited to it.

Cathy, on 18 November 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

thing is lrm boats only work on newbs that are stupid enough to stand still, once you get into matches with people that know how to deal with your lrm boat you'll have a big pile of metal that will cause fail for you, and wasted tonnage for your team, only one map is really viable for lrms at all levels and that alpine.

You can do some good with an LRM Skirmisher as long as it has TAG, though in general, you are correct. You rarely if ever see anyone try it in a serious game. If they do though, it's always on a fast medium for good reason.

Edited by Victor Morson, 07 December 2013 - 02:25 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Victor Morson, on 07 December 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

But that's the issue, right there. The kinds of 'mechs that you need to run to be effective at LRMs (Read: Mid 80s minimum) means that you will simply not have the space for "whatever backup weapons you can fit." Unless you skimp on ammunition.

Really, because I've got 65 and 50 ton mechs that have dual artemis LRM15s with TAG and backup weapons and I didn't have any problems fitting that in.

Victor Morson, on 07 December 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

The bottom line is it is always better to have 2 extra tons of LRM ammo than 2 medium lasers on an LRM boat. Otherwise you are sacing a ton of damage potential for a couple weapons that won't ultimately change anything.

The problem is that you're worried about total damage, while I'm mostly concerned with reducing enemy damage output. Those backup weapons of mine add enough damage to seriously punish any mech I see, and most of the time I will outright kill mechs that try to rush me. When you have artemis and TAG on your mech you're going to want line of sight, and having direct fire weapons to add to your damage output will be the difference between killing and being killed. A dead mech won't be shooting anyone now will it?

Victor Morson, on 07 December 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

If you are investing 12+ tons into a weapons system and take 2 tons of ammo, in particular for a weapon system notorious for it's ammo usage and need to pump tons of ammunition if you want to use indirect/counter AMS, you can't seriously consider this a smart move.

Who ever said anything about indirect fire? There's a reason my LRM boats all have artemis, TAG and direct fire weapons, and that's because it hits a lot harder that way. When the choice is between 30 missiles that may or may not hit and spread all over a target, and 30 missiles that will hit and mostly hit the torso combined with backup weapons I can actually aim, well for me that's an easy one. You don't need lots of ammo when you don't miss.

Victor Morson, on 07 December 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

Your boats... you are doing them wrong. Badly wrong. You are trading hundreds of damage potential in that ammunition for backup weapons that you should never have to use.

No I am not. When you use LRMs for indirect fire, you're lucky to even hit your target, never mind hitting them where it matters. I can take down targets in a fraction of the time, using less than half as much ammo by simply looking at them and maybe adding some backup weapons into the mix if I am able to.

Victor Morson, on 07 December 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

It mattes a whole lot if one of the mechs on your team runs out of ammo halfway through the match. I don't want my teammates skimping on ammo and going "Oh it's OK, you can deal with it for me, right?"

When I run out of ammo, and I usually will, it's because I just killed a bunch of hostiles or assisted against a whole lot more. At that point if we're still losing it's not because I didn't do my part, it's because someone else didn't do theirs. Also because all my LRM mechs have backup weapons, I am not useless when I run out of LRMs.
MWO is a game of momentum, and the easiest way to gain momentum is to pour as much ( accurate ) firepower onto the enemy as you possibly can ASAP. When the score is 6-2 my team won't care if I'm out of ammo, because at that point we've already won.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 07 December 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

Artermis is overrated. If you're firing directly most of the time, you'd be better off with most any other long range weapon system to do the same job.

Despite all of the flak I'm probably going to get for it - I think an Atlas can have enough LRMs to be useful - but still be decent otherwise. I've done quite well with it.

[color="#0066cc"]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a5dae46fcd5bd41[/color]

No ghost heat to worry about. The AC20 & two ERLL make it able to hold its own in a brawl - and the LRMs let it help out from anywhere within 1000 meters despite being Atlas slow. (And it's worth making a seperate weapon group for the LRM 5 so that you can fire it from furthur than that. It's hilarious to see someone running for cover because of the LRM warning - when it's only 5 missiles that aren't even in range. And if they start to ignore the warning - they'll take 35 missiles to the face.)

Of note - I would have upgraded one of the LRM 15s to an LRM 20 - but no matter how I installed them - the LRM 20 kept being launched from one of the 6 tube slots instead of the 10 tube slot.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 07 December 2013 - 05:06 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Try 2 - I wrote a reply up and then Firefox died. Lovely.

***** n stuff, on 07 December 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

Really, because I've got 65 and 50 ton mechs that have dual artemis LRM15s with TAG and backup weapons and I didn't have any problems fitting that in.

That's the best place to run LRMs so no argument there.

***** n stuff, on 07 December 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

The problem is that you're worried about total damage, while I'm mostly concerned with reducing enemy damage output.

I'm worried about total damage because 2 tons of LRM ammo is enough to bring down a pristine 'mech. 2 Medium Lasers is not enough to scare off a Locust.

***** n stuff, on 07 December 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

Those backup weapons of mine add enough damage to seriously punish any mech I see, and most of the time I will outright kill mechs that try to rush me.

This is still trading a very, very small amount of "right now" damage for an immense amount of staying power.

***** n stuff, on 07 December 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

When you have artemis and TAG on your mech you're going to want line of sight, and having direct fire weapons to add to your damage output will be the difference between killing and being killed. A dead mech won't be shooting anyone now will it?

The amount of times a couple medium lasers or other low-size backup weapons make that difference is very, very small. The amount of times extra ammunition has made a difference is very, very often. Again I'm talking about optimal skirmishers in the 50-60 ton range; you might be able to squeeze some things on a Battlemaster pugger or the like.

But you should have at least 7-8 tons of ammo to run LRMs as a bare minimum. I think 9 is a good goal.

***** n stuff, on 07 December 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

Who ever said anything about indirect fire? There's a reason my LRM boats all have artemis, TAG and direct fire weapons, and that's because it hits a lot harder that way. When the choice is between 30 missiles that may or may not hit and spread all over a target, and 30 missiles that will hit and mostly hit the torso combined with backup weapons I can actually aim, well for me that's an easy one. You don't need lots of ammo when you don't miss.

While I whole heartedly agree that your focus should be getting victims into optimal TAG range, there are two problems with what you are saying.

• Indirect still matters because most good pilots will be behind cover once the missiles are in the air. You might start out with a TAG shot, and end Indirect.
  
• Being able to throw damage on indirect fire is a major advantage of the LRMs you aren't exploiting if you don't have the ammo to spare.

Is it ideal to always have a TAG and direct LOS? Absolutely.

Is it hurting your team more to carry backup weapons / not nearly enough ammo to continually fire on a target while you are getting LOS? Also absolutely.

***** n stuff, on 07 December 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

No I am not. When you use LRMs for indirect fire, you're lucky to even hit your target, never mind hitting them where it matters. I can take down targets in a fraction of the time, using less than half as much ammo by simply looking at them and maybe adding some backup weapons into the mix if I am able to.

You have the right idea in that indirect is inferior and should be avoided, but it causes a ton of damage to larger 'mechs. Being able to have the ammo to indirect heavy/assaults and/or harass people with UAV is a massive advantage even if your core idea - TAG and LOS is king - is true.

***** n stuff, on 07 December 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

When I run out of ammo, and I usually will, it's because I just killed a bunch of hostiles or assisted against a whole lot more. At that point if we're still losing it's not because I didn't do my part, it's because someone else didn't do theirs. Also because all my LRM mechs have backup weapons, I am not useless when I run out of LRMs.

The problem is here you're saying "Well if we lose after I spent my ammo it's their fault for sucking." The fact a full third of your still living 'mech turning into a paper weight because you didn't bring enough ammunition, however, puts much of that blame back on you.

Sure you have backup so "aren't useless" but once you're down to 2 meds, you might as well not have any guns. You're not finishing off anything that's not already a hair away from death, period, and you're not accomplishing much. Again, 2 tons of ammo in this scenario = infinitely more useful.

***** n stuff, on 07 December 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

MWO is a game of momentum, and the easiest way to gain momentum is to pour as much ( accurate ) firepower onto the enemy as you possibly can ASAP. When the score is 6-2 my team won't care if I'm out of ammo, because at that point we've already won.

If you were carrying heavy backup weapons, then I would agree, but the fact is a few low-ton backup guns are not going to gain you momentum on any level to justify your short staying power.

[Candun]

shadow hawk ...nuf said

[Victor Morson]

Charons Little Helper, on 07 December 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Artermis is overrated. If you're firing directly most of the time, you'd be better off with most any other long range weapon system to do the same job.

This is an absolutely false statement. Artemis stacked with TAG is how you hit lights, how you hit fast mediums, and how you insure your damage is actually hitting them center mass. Without Artemis LRMs are nothing more than chip damage, spread far too much to be useful.

Charons Little Helper, on 07 December 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Despite all of the flak I'm probably going to get for it - I think an Atlas can have enough LRMs to be useful - but still be decent otherwise. I've done quite well with it.

[color="#0066cc"]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a5dae46fcd5bd41[/color]

No ghost heat to worry about. The AC20 & two ERLL make it able to hold its own in a brawl - and the LRMs let it help out from anywhere within 1000 meters despite being Atlas slow. (And it's worth making a seperate weapon group for the LRM 5 so that you can fire it from furthur than that. It's hilarious to see someone running for cover because of the LRM warning - when it's only 5 missiles that aren't even in range. And if they start to ignore the warning - they'll take 35 missiles to the face.)

There's a lot of problems with this design. While the hybrid Atlas is an OK pugger LRM mech, I absolutely cannot recommend it to people because instead of being strong in two areas, it's inferior in more ways than one. It is an inferior brawler as half of it's weapons become useless inside of 270m, and an inferior LRM 'mech because of it's slow speed.

Still like I said, it can work in PUGs, in particular if you try to keep targets between 350-500 to combine the AC/20 and LRMs.

However there's a lot of mistakes, for a hybrid Atlas, in that design:

• No TAG
  
• No BAP
  
• No Artremis
  
• Not enough ammunition
  
• Weak leg armor + Lots of ammo (ATLAS MISTAKE #1)
  
• 305 engine weighs drastically more than 300
  
• Extra Heatsinks largely unnecessary, in particular with armor that weak.

Personally I'd drop the ER Larges, replace one with a TAG, and then focus on correcting these issues. While again I do not endorse the hybrid Atlas, this would be far better for a pugging hybrid:

Pug Hybrid Atlas

3 tons AC/20, 7 tons LRM, and now with the support items to operate the LRM effectively. Again, your best bet is to get targets right around an optimal 350m range and blast them, but due to the Atlas's slow speed, this is a bit rough. Your ER Large firepower might be down but the TAG (and lack of ANY heat issues) will make up for it.

Edited by Victor Morson, 07 December 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

Victor Morson, on 07 December 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Try 2 - I wrote a reply up and then Firefox died. Lovely.



That's the best place to run LRMs so no argument there.



I'm worried about total damage because 2 tons of LRM ammo is enough to bring down a pristine 'mech. 2 Medium Lasers is not enough to scare off a Locust.



This is still trading a very, very small amount of "right now" damage for an immense amount of staying power.



The amount of times a couple medium lasers or other low-size backup weapons make that difference is very, very small. The amount of times extra ammunition has made a difference is very, very often. Again I'm talking about optimal skirmishers in the 50-60 ton range; you might be able to squeeze some things on a Battlemaster pugger or the like.

But you should have at least 7-8 tons of ammo to run LRMs as a bare minimum. I think 9 is a good goal.




While I whole heartedly agree that your focus should be getting victims into optimal TAG range, there are two problems with what you are saying.

• Indirect still matters because most good pilots will be behind cover once the missiles are in the air. You might start out with a TAG shot, and end Indirect.
  
• Being able to throw damage on indirect fire is a major advantage of the LRMs you aren't exploiting if you don't have the ammo to spare.

Is it ideal to always have a TAG and direct LOS? Absolutely.



Is it hurting your team more to carry backup weapons / not nearly enough ammo to continually fire on a target while you are getting LOS? Also absolutely.

You have the right idea in that indirect is inferior and should be avoided, but it causes a ton of damage to larger 'mechs. Being able to have the ammo to indirect heavy/assaults and/or harass people with UAV is a massive advantage even if your core idea - TAG and LOS is king - is true.

The problem is here you're saying "Well if we lose after I spent my ammo it's their fault for sucking." The fact a full third of your still living 'mech turning into a paper weight because you didn't bring enough ammunition, however, puts much of that blame back on you.

No, if I wipe out an entire lance and my team still loses it really is their fault. Even if I'm out of ammo, those mechs I killed or helped kill should more than make up for it. I go into matches expecting I'll have to hit above my weight, but I shouldn't need to do the work for an entire team.

Sure you have backup so "aren't useless" but once you're down to 2 meds, you might as well not have any guns. You're not finishing off anything that's not already a hair away from death, period, and you're not accomplishing much. Again, 2 tons of ammo in this scenario = infinitely more useful.

Over the course of a match I can deal as much damage with those lasers as I would with the ammo, and I can do it more accurately and I can deal the same total damage in a much shorter time.

If you were carrying heavy backup weapons, then I would agree, but the fact is a few low-ton backup guns are not going to gain you momentum on any level to justify your short staying power.

Yes they will, if only because of all the crit enemies that just barely escape to be cycled out and remain active. The faster you can take down a target, the less likely it is for that target to escape.

I've found it is more effective to hold fire until you're sure you'll hit than to try to spam missiles for an entire match. While any good LRM user will recognize bad targets and avoid firing on them it's a lot harder to tell the difference between a few hits and all hits. Only going for the best possible shots helps reduce the chance of me being countered and the greatly increased hit percentage means I can do more with less ammo, this is why I have backup weapons, I am not running as hot as I would be if I were spamming and I don't need 10 tons of ammo to be effective so adding lasers and/or light or mid sized ballistics to increase the damage I can deal during an engagement helps tremendously. If I were spamming indirect fire I would probably deal hundreds more points of damage with my LRMs over a match, but since most of that damage would be spread out over entire mechs, and several of them at that, it doesn't reduce time to kill nearly as much as a 9-15 damage laser burst or a 4 DPS ballistic weapon would. I'd need 3-4 times as much ammo to deal the same amount of CT damage, and I would also need my team to hold the line for the entire match while I slowly whittle down the enemy, and in my experience going into siege mode just gives the enemy the initiative and makes it much easier for them to find and exploit weaknesses. I also usually deal hundreds of points of extra damage just by using my backup weapons, so the score still looks the same, only the enemies go down faster.
I have no problem with firing on targets just before they break line of sight because I will still have my artemis bonus and I'll likely stay locked on long enough to hit anyway, but I don't fire on anything I can't see unless I'm absolutely certain I'll hit them. The amount of ammo you'd have to spend otherwise just isn't worth it.
I don't even bother firing on targets that are near high cover unless I know my missiles will reach them in time, because ultimately suppressing enemies doesn't really do much unless you're actually hitting them. Forcing an enemy into cover might give my team a temporary numerical advantage, but if I'm not dealing any damage I won't get anything for it and it'll be much harder for my team to take down that target later. This is again, a reason to have backup weapons, even if my missiles won't be able to hit them I can still use those. Cornercamping, hillhumping and poptarting are hard to deal with using LRMs if the enemy has solid cover, but with backup weapons I can hit them regardless.
Having a sizable backup arsenal allows for entirely new tactics, such as firing LRMs at short range as bait and using your massive direct fire arsenal, LRMs included, to quickly take out whatever tries to rush you. I've seen entire assault lances round a corner going straight for me only to end up being focused down one by one while I myself dealt about half of the total damage on each target. That would not be possible without those extra weapons. It also makes you less dependent on your teammates, which in PUGs especially is a good idea. I can't even begin to count the number of lights that died trying to kill a supposedly easy target, and if you somehow end up in a duel with something bigger the extra firepower will allow you to end it quickly, and give you a fighting chance if the enemy gets within your minimum range.

Edit: Most good LRM builds are devastating if left unchecked, but are easy to counter, mine on the other hand are devastating and hard to counter. Having to take less ammo is a small sacrifice for a 2-4 kill lead, because even if half my weapons are useless after a few minutes of fighting at that point those LRMs won't matter, all that's left to do is finish them. If my team doesn't have the lead by then, we would never have gotten it anyway and whatever the situation is would have been a lot worse had I brought more ammo and fewer weapons.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 08 December 2013 - 04:36 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

Victor Morson, on 07 December 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

However there's a lot of mistakes, for a hybrid Atlas, in that design:

• No TAG
  
• No BAP
  
• No Artremis
  
• Not enough ammunition
  
• Weak leg armor + Lots of ammo (ATLAS MISTAKE #1)
  
• 305 engine weighs drastically more than 300
  
• Extra Heatsinks largely unnecessary, in particular with armor that weak.

1. - I know - I don't have an energy hardpoint to spare, it's low-slung anyway, and even if you fire with line of sight - usually you lose it before the LRMs land.
2. - BAP doesn't really help LRMs much - just increases sensor range. It increases speed for target info - not target lock. Canceling ECM is too close range to help LRMs.
3. - As I said before - I usually lose line of sight before the missiles land anyway. If missile speed ever increases again - I'll probably agree with you
4. - Your build has 2 more tons of ammo - and it needs more ammo than mine because it lacks energy weapons. Mine actually has higher damage potential. 31 LRM launches isn't that bad. (though as I noted - I do only fire the LRM 5 when just keeping people's heads down)
5. - I will admit - the leg armor is a bit low on this build (though 55 isn't that low) - my actual build has 63 - smurfy mistake.
6. - The 305 is just there because I had tonnage to burn but no space to put it in.
7. - Your build - even the sole heatsink you have probably isn't needed considering your weapons. They are needed with two ERLL.

The other critique I have on yours is a lack of AMS. Personal taste - but I always but AMS on anything below 80kph. (perhaps not needed with ECM - but I started playing during the last LRMaggedden )

Valid arguments to be made on both sides.

Anyway - maybe it is only good for pugging - I've never played 12v12 - but I've had a lot of success with it.