90 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

stkxie, on 07 December 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

To each it's own. I hate when people bring to the game lrm100 that move at 38ish kph and then complain that LRMs are way too weak in the game. You are too slow to be anywhere in range of the battle and by the time you make it there half of the team is dead. I personally prefer mech with high mobility and descent damage output and that's why stalker 5m & 5xLRM5 is my choice of the missile boat. It kicks *** see for yourself.

You know you can fire those all at once, right? But yes they are very torso-focused in chain fire like that.

[Victor Morson]

Charons Little Helper, on 08 December 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

[/list]1. - I know - I don't have an energy hardpoint to spare, it's low-slung anyway, and even if you fire with line of sight - usually you lose it before the LRMs land.

It's worth dropping a laser for. TAG isn't just about fast locks. TAG also tightens the missile grouping (more focused, single location damage), stacks with Artemis, and also improves the tracking speed - this means the missiles can turn sharper, and thus hit fast moving lights & mediums, while TAG'ed. The lock speed is just a luxury bonus.

In addition TAG will make your lock last slightly longer once they are out of sight, allowing more on-target homing, and also it counters ECM which lets an LRM boat engage DDCs and anything in their bubble.

Charons Little Helper, on 08 December 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

2. - BAP doesn't really help LRMs much - just increases sensor range. It increases speed for target info - not target lock. Canceling ECM is too close range to help LRMs.

The last part is entirely wrong. If a single ECM Spider or Raven runs past you, or is in the general area, it will paperweight all your LRMs. The BAP is make or break for missiles.

Charons Little Helper, on 08 December 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

3. - As I said before - I usually lose line of sight before the missiles land anyway. If missile speed ever increases again - I'll probably agree with you

Missiles will begin tightening or expanding depending on Artemis and TAG factors. If you have direct LOS on someone for 3/4 of a missile's slight, the missiles will still be much more tightly grouped with Artemis than without. Also since your goal is to get someone into direct LOS AND TAG, not indirect fire, it doubles it's usefulness.

Artemis + TAG makes for very tight missile groupings and is the difference between tons of trash damage, and solid lethal damage.

Charons Little Helper, on 08 December 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

4. - Your build has 2 more tons of ammo - and it needs more ammo than mine because it lacks energy weapons. Mine actually has higher damage potential. 31 LRM launches isn't that bad. (though as I noted - I do only fire the LRM 5 when just keeping people's heads down)

Your build also has massively weak armor in areas where people will be hounding that ammunition. Tonnage had to be spent to correct this.

Charons Little Helper, on 08 December 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

5. - I will admit - the leg armor is a bit low on this build (though 55 isn't that low) - my actual build has 63 - smurfy mistake.

With an Atlas "As close to maximum" should always be the motto for legs; doubly so if it has ammo.

Charons Little Helper, on 08 December 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

6. - The 305 is just there because I had tonnage to burn but no space to put it in.

If you end up needing to waste several tons to make something work, likely the design is sub-optimal.

Charons Little Helper, on 08 December 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

7. - Your build - even the sole heatsink you have probably isn't needed considering your weapons. They are needed with two ERLL.

It was more of a luxury, but does make the 'mech almost heat neutral at least. A ton of ammo would have been preferable if there were open slots.

Charons Little Helper, on 08 December 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

The other critique I have on yours is a lack of AMS. Personal taste - but I always but AMS on anything below 80kph. (perhaps not needed with ECM - but I started playing during the last LRMaggedden )

It's a a hard call, but ultimately LRMs are way too heavy and take way too much crit space to share them with an AC/20 and AMS and have any of it be effective.

Charons Little Helper, on 08 December 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

Valid arguments to be made on both sides.

Anyway - maybe it is only good for pugging - I've never played 12v12 - but I've had a lot of success with it.

The biggest mistakes is I think you misunderstand the purpose of Artemis & TAG.

You know those fast moving mediums that you kind of hit with about 30% of your missiles at most if they're moving? When you're running both, that turns into about 90% on target into the chest, and also really solid tracking damage to lights. Locusts are freebie kills with that setup.

Also TAG is how you counter ECM at a range, and without it, a single ECM 'mech can render you useless at long range. Combined with the lack of BAP, ECM can render your missiles useless at both ranges.

All this stuff adds up to my hard, fast, and without exception rule that all LRM 'mechs should have BAP, TAG, and Artemis.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Do not know that it is the 'best' missile boat, but as I do not get behind the idea of boating LRM's on assaults I revisited the idea of boating LRM's on the Catapult A1. I have not done this for a very long while now but since the Streak Cat is being out done by the medium streak builds and the Smash Cat being bad due to SRM's being bad + ghost heat issues I figured I would remake the A1 Missile Boat.

Again...it may not be the best boat but considering the A1 is virtually useless these days it does make the best Catapult missle boat. Video below of the A1 missile boat.

[Victor Morson]

xMEPHISTOx, on 08 December 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Again...it may not be the best boat but considering the A1 is virtually useless these days it does make the best Catapult missle boat. Video below of the A1 missile boat.

I actually disagree for LRMs. The best Catapult for LRM systems is the C4.

While the Catapult outside of the K2 isn't highly recommended by me in general, the reason the C4 gets the pass is that it can carry TAG, flat out.

This means the C4 can carry LRMs in a 15x15x5x5 config, losing only two launchers from the A1, but gaining grouping & tracking from the TAG.

Again, I believe wholeheartedly the best LRM boats are the Shadow Hawk, Centurion and (While it's easily the worst of the three) Kintaro, with the only good LRM pug assault being the BattleMaster. The Catapult is inferior to all these options sadly.

Edited by Victor Morson, 08 December 2013 - 03:56 PM.

[Just wanna play]

stkxie, on 07 December 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

To each it's own. I hate when people bring to the game lrm100 that move at 38ish kph and then complain that LRMs are way too weak in the game. You are too slow to be anywhere in range of the battle and by the time you make it there half of the team is dead. I personally prefer mech with high mobility and descent damage output and that's why stalker 5m & 5xLRM5 is my choice of the missile boat. It kicks *** see for yourself.

when did i say they were to weak? and it goes 19kph for the record......... not that it is me using it or anything


id say the catapult and awesome are hands down the best, i personally prefer the awesome

and hes just mad his atlas with the weaponry of a medium gets ***** by streaks on another atlas.........

Edited by Just wanna play, 08 December 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Victor Morson, on 08 December 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

The best Catapult for LRM systems is the C4.
While the Catapult outside of the K2 isn't highly recommended by me in general, the reason the C4 gets the pass is that it can carry TAG, flat out.

Fair enough...Tag is pretty epic.

[Zerberus]

I run a few different LRM builds, from trolls to strikers to boats, across all weight classes including lights.

For the most part, I agree 100% with Koniving. Heck, he probably even expected me to say that when and if I chimed in. My personal go to LRM boats are the 6xLRM5 Catapult A-1 (which I refuse to play until my ears are smaller than a dragon) and the 4xLRM10 BLR1-S

But I`ve also found surprising success with the Oxide (Hero Jenner) as an LRM Troll /striker with 4xLRM5 and a 275XL.... Keep moving, and be selective of your target choices (this is where map knowledge and situational awareness raise DPS significantly), and you can wee away in most of the enemy team`s Lucky Charms with a good degree of impunity. Until you eventually go OOM and start capping or running ECM / meatshield interference.


Essentially you need to play it like a cat a1, just more aggressively position yourself and at the same time more quickly defensively reposition yourself... With both mechs, your mobility is the key to your success. Neither works effectiverly as an "LRM Turret"... that`s what Stalkers and Battlemasters are for

Edited by Zerberus, 08 December 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[RickySpanish]

The Stalker brings enough energy hardpoints to mount an effective point defence even with one taken up with a TAG, and has enough room for 4 LRM launchers with Artemis. This is by FAR the best LRM boating Mech.

The Catapult is a 'pure' LRM chassis, and like the Stalker has high mounted launchers for effective launching without revealing too much of your Mech if you need to shoot from cover.

The Awesome 8R sucks, don't bother with it.

Pretty much every other Mech mounting LRMs does so as a supplement to its other weapons. However, the state of missiles in general makes fielding LRMs on them a bad idea as they can't mount enough to be effective while sustaining either a decent point defence, or maneuverability when compared to the Stalker or Catapult.

[Just wanna play]

RickySpanish, on 08 December 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

The Stalker brings enough energy hardpoints to mount an effective point defence even with one taken up with a TAG, and has enough room for 4 LRM launchers with Artemis. This is by FAR the best LRM boating Mech.

The Catapult is a 'pure' LRM chassis, and like the Stalker has high mounted launchers for effective launching without revealing too much of your Mech if you need to shoot from cover.

The Awesome 8R sucks, don't bother with it.

Pretty much every other Mech mounting LRMs does so as a supplement to its other weapons. However, the state of missiles in general makes fielding LRMs on them a bad idea as they can't mount enough to be effective while sustaining either a decent point defence, or maneuverability when compared to the Stalker or Catapult.

i strongly discourage using the stalker with lrms, doesn't have arms or good torso twist to move its back up weapons fast and far enough to keep up with enemies anyway, also due to torso twist cant walk away from enemies and keep firing at them nor can it really fire at enemies 90 degrees to the left or right of it , so either move at full speed with rear to them and cant shoot or is slower then awesome/catapult getting, also stalkers dont have as good situational awareness due to narrower cockpit view, also stalker cant put a tag in head or ct so you always have it even if you loss one side or the other, except the 5m but that's not very high, weapons are also spread out on different limbs so you cant just aim the launcher over an obstacle (or around) while keeping another aiming cursor on the lock on signal using free look (catapult can fire all of its launchers over but not around), also the design itself is very bad for lrm defense, far back ams, ct is basically lrm landing pad, and the awesome has a shield arm, and all of its missiles are on the stronger side torsos not the arms AND side torsos


also doesn't have to many missile tubes so not so ams proof, biggest possible salvo for a stalker is 52 (for the 3H)


only reason to use a stalker is for a 95-100 missile build



if you pick and build a fire support mech with the intention of your main weapons becoming unusable, you have already messed up, focus on keeping them useful not having something else that tries to be useful



if you are new to lrms i recommend an awesome 8T, pack it with a tag and either lrm20s plus 4 mediums with art or 15s with 4 medium pulses, std 300 engine, preferably lots of ammo if you play with a friend who runs a light (or teams actually help you....) i think mine had 1440 damage i found it nice to move up with the team and be an aggressive lrm boat (roughly 300-600m away from targets)

[Victor Morson]

You should read the thread Play; you've got some ideas that are definitely hurting your potential with LRMs.

[Barkem Squirrel]

I would look at this as more of how you like to play.

Running the Stalker 100, Battlemaster 80, Awesome 80, Catapult 90, Jager 80 to have the most LRMs on a mech as possible

Or to run a Stalker 50, Battlemaster 50, Awesome 60 Catapult 90 (note same), Jager 60 to have the number of LRMs match the number of tubes.

Or running to stay under the ghost heat and tube restrictions.

Then there are the many variations under these but above multiple LRM 5's.


My experience is boating as many LRMs as you can may allow for more damage, but at a cost of being spread out and less kills. The damage will also be spread out in chain fire. If you only load the LRM's to match the number of tubes you have then everything goes in one volley not two, three or god forbid 20 out of a NARC point. You want to defeat AMS sure do it once, fire a second volley or better yet, identify who has AMS and who does not and target them first. If you are going to fire at a lance of mechs with four or more AMS, don't fire until they separate or two or three LRM boats are firing.

Now the lighter LRM boats have greater mobility, and can fire 20 to 40 LRM's at once so they are viable, but may not be able to carry everything the heavier LRM boats can like TAG and BAP. Then Artemis may be restricted due to head or center torso mounted missile points.

Back up weapons. I do not know how many times after firing the last LRM volley I decented into brawling with the Jager A with two MG's, one ML and TAG. Then the surprising part was getting more kills with this load out, but that may be due to using MG's on already damaged areas looking for XL engines. Now with the Jager A I am running just one ML, but still get kills with it. The Thunderbolts, I can fire 20, 25 or 30 LRM's and have Three, four or six ML's for back up. This is a more devastating form of back up than most people want to deal with. Yesterday I ran an LRM 30 Shadow Hawk 2d2 with two ML's. I shot only a few racks. Why, the first BJ was firing PPC's at 50m so I stayed in his face as he was overheating while I was taking no damage from his fire. I am wondering what was going through this mind at that time due to my PPC invincible armor . Then the second was a BJ, AC 20 three ML's. It took a while but I was able to kill both with only using 150 missiles and Medium lasers. Then I noticed that the rest of the team was finishing the last mech. So what your opponent is and how they use it will also determine you weapon selection and tactics.

BAP, Never leave home without it. Great for those pesky lights trying to keep you from getting locks while standing behind you not firing or just TAGing you.

TAG, Great for ECM problems down range and good for focusing damage on targets.

Artemis, good for focusing damage on targets.

I still can not recommend NARC, just have not used it enough to say much.

At some point I am going to run an Oxide lrm 20, but for now maybe just an LRM 10 locust. I know from the ravens that position is the most important part of firing LRMs. In position, I mean the targets location to cover and your location to him to maintain lock and his ability or his allies that can return fire.

[Just wanna play]

Victor Morson, on 08 December 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

You should read the thread Play; you've got some ideas that are definitely hurting your potential with LRMs.

how so? ignoring lights pecking me to actually focus on using my lrms is "hurting my potential" with them? and ghost heat is a joke, if i can fire 5 lrm 20s with 14 std heat sinks and stay online, that slight lose of sustained damage is worth it for the better burst damage (and sustained damage is less important any way when the missiles rely on guidance the entire way, if you played wot you would understand why, in this game just get as many missiles to hit before that enemy disappears, its not like you can take proper advantage of your sustained damage with nothing to shoot at)

[Victor Morson]

Just wanna play, on 12 December 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

how so? ignoring lights pecking me to actually focus on using my lrms is "hurting my potential" with them? and ghost heat is a joke, if i can fire 5 lrm 20s with 14 std heat sinks and stay online, that slight lose of sustained damage is worth it for the better burst damage (and sustained damage is less important any way when the missiles rely on guidance the entire way, if you played wot you would understand why, in this game just get as many missiles to hit before that enemy disappears, its not like you can take proper advantage of your sustained damage with nothing to shoot at)

Are you seriously claiming you can fire 5 LRM/20s on 14 Standard heatsinks (You're using standard, really?) at once without heat problems?

Uhh..

Again, re-read the whole thread, there's a ton that's been addressed. But right now I'm not even sure if you're serious because what you just said will basically cook off almost immediately and is really bad.

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 December 2013 - 09:00 PM.

[kaizobi]

The Awsome, Highlander, and Stalker are all solid mechs, but I actually think the BLR-1S is probably the best. LRM builds should always include a good balance of 4 things:

Speed: The Battlemaster is the only mech of these 4 that you can use an XL engine in without severely impacting survivability. From the front, the side torsos are hard to hit and if you armor them well you rarely die to side torso damage. This does two things. It gives you a mech capable of getting from one position to another quickly and that can keep up with the other heavies and assaults on the team, and it frees up a lot of tonnage for extra ammo (a must for LRM boats) or weaponry.

Upgrades & Mods: Every LRM boat needs several pieces of equipment to do well. Artemis, Tag, and a Beagle Active Probe are all essential to a LRM boat. Artimis and Tag will increase your missile tracking allowing you to put more missiles on target and the BAP will allow you to lock on quickly and detect mechs sooner which gives you the time for that one extra volley when you need it. Because of the XL engine you will have enough tonnage free to equip all of these without sacrificing armor or ammo.

Firepower: Firepower is dependent on two things for LRM boats: Missile Hardpoints and Missile Tubes. The hardpoints decide how many missile weapons you can carry, but the tubes decide how many missiles you can fire in one volley. The fewer missiles you have in a single volley, the more you will lose to AMS fire. The Awesome has the others beat here as they only have 50-52 missile tubes and the Awesome has 60. This is why most people recommend the Awesome. But a lot of people don't realize that right now, LRM hit detection is bugged. Only about 20 or so missiles can hit a target at once and still be detected. Any more than 20 and it's wasted ammo. So you can shoot 60 missiles at once but only 20 will actually hit the target. The way around this is to chainfire your shots so you launch 15-20 at a time, but when you do this, the number of missile tubes makes less difference and the Awesome loses its advantage.

Secondary Weapons: Ignore secondary weapons at your own risk! Many a mech pilot has loaded up his mech with the biggest heaviest missile weapons he can carry and all the ammo he can shoot and he is ripped apart by the first light mech to come within 180 meters of him. The battlemaster has enough tonnage left over (thanks to that XL engine) to equip 3-4 medium lasers which gives you a way to defend yourself from mechs that make it inside the minimum range of your missiles.

The Awesome is a great LRM boat but it won't come into its own until hit detection is fixed. Until then, the Battlemaster is the way to go.

[Johnny Reb]

Shadowcrusnik, on 17 November 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

As stated by title, what mech chassis provides the best stats for LRM Boating? I do not mean like PURE LRM or any such, just a very good LRM.

To be more specific, i want to be primarily LRM Boat focused ,but have the maneuverability and versatility to deal with mechs at close-medium range with reasonable efficiency.

I think the Highlander 733P is the best lrm boat! http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6c7b8965eed1a28

It has it all 3 med laser for self defense, tag, standard engine, jj and lrm55!

[L A guns]

for me its highlanders-jumpjets and 40 tube salvos and able to carry lotsa ammo and def weps,then stalker,then atlas(ddc),then awsomes,then pults

[ThermidorFallen]

I was expecting to see a photoshopped picture of a Stalker or Catapult with a leather vest on. I am much disappoint.

On topic, weirdly one of my best mechs has been a Stalker-3H with 2 LRM 20s. Add a pair of LRM5s if you want more blocking out the sun or SRM 6s if you want self defense. 3 med lasers and tag give you extra defense and targeting.

[Just wanna play]

Victor Morson, on 12 December 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

what you just said will basically cook off almost immediately and is really bad.

well then you clearly haven't tried it because one, it will only shut down for a quick second on terra and caustic and two, you HAVE to use std heat sinks, but you wouldn't know that because you have no experience with the mech, so don't question the knowledge of others when you don't have knowledge on the topic your self

Edited by Just wanna play, 22 January 2014 - 05:51 PM.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Just wanna play, on 22 January 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

well then you clearly haven't tried it because one, it will only shut down for a quick second on terra and caustic and two, you HAVE to use std heat sinks, but you wouldn't know that because you have no experience with the mech, so don't question the knowledge of others when you don't have knowledge on the topic your self

Well, let's see.

5LRM20 alpha struck produces 45.62 heat (thank you, Smurfy). STK heat cap with 14 SHS is 44. Instant shut down, probable loss of missile lock.

1.4heat per second dissipation means you're back under 100% heat in just over a second - assuming you're on a heat neutral map like River City or Crimson Strait. However, the mech won't restart until you're down to around 80, 85% - another what, six seconds or so?

That's a long time, if someone's shooting at you.

So, yeah. You can use it with short-ish shutdown (with alpha, because you said you don't like chain-fire due to your experience on WoT), but it's still 'niche' at best. I've not actually tried building one of these, either, in Smurfy or otherwise, so I don't know what your armour or engine would be like. But you're devoting 50 tons to missile launchers alone. Like, carrying a Centurion made of tubes on the back of a Stalker. Plus your 14 tons of heatsink... you're leaving precious little room for armour and engine. Oh, and ammo. Can't forget that.

So, to conclude. Can you? Yes. Should you? Probably not.

Edited by Arnold J Rimmer, 22 January 2014 - 06:26 PM.

[Just wanna play]

your forgetting its a stalker...heat isn't produced all at once...(fail math warrior)