14 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

ERPPCs are 15 heat in Battletech, but Double Heatsinks dissapate the heat at the full 2.0 rate. That's why it's balanced in Battletech.

In MWO, I can load 16-18 DHS 1.4s and the mech shutsdown after a few shots of 2xERPPCs. That is too restrictive for balance because the player invests 20-22 tons into this and it just shutsdown or takes 9-10 seconds between firings, meaning you never use the second ERPPC. The end result is ERPPCs can't be used or don't compete with PPCs and Lasers. It's just an unreasonable heat level, 15. It prevents Heavy and Assault mechs from using them. But this is wrong, MWO includes the AWS-9M which is supposed to run 3xERPPCs easily and it won't work at all.

Lower the heat of ERPPCs or raise the cooling rate of DHS 1.4 to something closer to DHS 2.0. MWO has Heat Scale to prevent PPC coring issues. Unless you just don't want Mechs to be defeated by an ERPPC hit.

The better balance is to raise the cooling rate of external DHS of course since this forces players to pay for the ERPPCs with the required number of Double Heatsinks instead of just getting them for free engine heatsink cooling.

[NocturnalBeast]

Lightfoot, on 18 November 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

ERPPCs are 15 heat in Battletech, but Double Heatsinks dissapate the heat at the full 2.0 rate. That's why it's balanced in Battletech.

In MWO, I can load 16-18 DHS 1.4s and the mech shutsdown after a few shots of 2xERPPCs. That is too restrictive for balance because the player invests 20-22 tons into this and it just shutsdown or takes 9-10 seconds between firings, meaning you never use the second ERPPC. The end result is ERPPCs can't be used or don't compete with PPCs and Lasers. It's just an unreasonable heat level, 15. It prevents Heavy and Assault mechs from using them. But this is wrong, MWO includes the AWS-9M which is supposed to run 3xERPPCs easily and it won't work at all.

Lower the heat of ERPPCs or raise the cooling rate of DHS 1.4 to something closer to DHS 2.0. MWO has Heat Scale to prevent PPC coring issues. Unless you just don't want Mechs to be defeated by an ERPPC hit.

The better balance is to raise the cooling rate of external DHS of course since this forces players to pay for the ERPPCs with the required number of Double Heatsinks instead of just getting them for free engine heatsink cooling.

Then all the poptarts come back and the crying ensues.

[Modo44]

Though for different reasons, ERPPCs are now a sniper weapon similar to the Gauss Rifle. A very good one, but actually requiring backup weapons for when targets come closer.

[Miken]

In CBT times wasn't crying about gauss and (ER)PPC. I think PGI need start again from scratch

[Stingray Productions]

i guess there will always be people crying. Well, my thought is make PPCS run cooler, or leave it at it's current heat and make them fly faster-more compared to the gauss rifle. Cuz honestly, because of their heat and how slow they fly, I've eliminated PPCS from all my builds, don't even use them any more. An ER Large laser is always better for me personally.

[Davers]

I agree that 1.4 DHS is a big hit to all energy dependent mechs. Even with true DHS heat will always be a factor due to the fire rate. I wish we could try them out though.

[August55]

Get a engine that fits 5 heatsinks
Put 5 DHS in them
Use er ppcs
Profit!

You're forgetting that Heat sink value is 2.0 when the Heat sink's in an engine. My battlemaster can run 3 er ppc just fine because of this.

BLR-1G

That's roughly my 1G. Master it and it runs like a champ.

Edited by August55, 19 November 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[Bromineberry]

I think only the heat sinks that come with the engine are "real" 2.0 heatsinks. (10 from 250 engine onwards) The additional heatsinks that are put in the Engine slots are "normal" 1.4 DHS. Or did they change that?

[Stingray Productions]

Bromineberry, on 19 November 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

I think only the heat sinks that come with the engine are "real" 2.0 heatsinks. (10 from 250 engine onwards) The additional heatsinks that are put in the Engine slots are "normal" 1.4 DHS. Or did they change that?

Pretty sure they didn't change it, I believe what you said is still correct.

[Training Instructor]

A Battlemaster with a 400xl and 24DHS only using a ppc and 6 medium lasers will shut down repeatedly if they have a target to fire at with both weapon groups. Chain fire only prolongs the agony, and just strips armor rather than coring out sections of the enemy.

That's why so many people have taken that same battlemaster and dropped the engine down to a 350xl, and put in 2xAC5 plus ppcs and a couple of medium lasers. This despite the low hanging arms meaning you have to do way more positioning to make it work.

Increase the efficiency of DHS please. I can run a 3xAC5 Jager and core assaults in no time flat and never be in danger of overheating. Who cares if I run out of ammo after coring out multiple heavies and assaults and killing 3-4 people? I've done more than my fair share of the work, unless the other team has even more AC dakka dakka going than my team.

[Kataiser]

They should just balance the ERPPC, something that tabletop didn't really do that well.

Yes, it's a bit too hot right now, to the point of being borderline (but not quite) unusable. My personal opinion is that giving the ER a minimum range of 180 and getting rid of the 5 extra heat would promote it more as a sniper weapon, instead of it being used like a Snub, like it was in the past.

[Training Instructor]

Kataiser, on 19 November 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

They should just balance the ERPPC, something that tabletop didn't really do that well.

Yes, it's a bit too hot right now, to the point of being borderline (but not quite) unusable. My personal opinion is that giving the ER a minimum range of 180 and getting rid of the 5 extra heat would promote it more as a sniper weapon, instead of it being used like a Snub, like it was in the past.

It's not just the ERPPC, it's energy reliant variants in general that are screwed. At least the 6xML jenner can run away to cool down. PGI has tons of medium, heavy, and assault energy boats that can't actually use their hardpoints because it's impossible to dissipate the heat quick enough when you're getting pounded by ballistic boats with few, if any, heat problems.

[Stingray Productions]

Kataiser, on 19 November 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

They should just balance the ERPPC, something that tabletop didn't really do that well.

Yes, it's a bit too hot right now, to the point of being borderline (but not quite) unusable. My personal opinion is that giving the ER a minimum range of 180 and getting rid of the 5 extra heat would promote it more as a sniper weapon, instead of it being used like a Snub, like it was in the past.

that would definitely have a balancing feature. I think though the reason they have minimum range on the PPC is just because that's the way it was in battletech. As you see here: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC vs. here: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ER_PPC only the PPC had a minimum range.

[Kataiser]

Stingray1234, on 19 November 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

that would definitely have a balancing feature. I think though the reason they have minimum range on the PPC is just because that's the way it was in battletech. As you see here: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC vs. here: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ER_PPC only the PPC had a minimum range.

That's very true, and totally why they did it. But nobody that I know played without house ruling the ERPPC to have a minimum range. It really just looks like an oversight that they ran with, I think. And it especially translates poorly to a non-tabletop setting without some kind of change from that rule.

[Bront]

Stingray1234, on 19 November 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

that would definitely have a balancing feature. I think though the reason they have minimum range on the PPC is just because that's the way it was in battletech. As you see here: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC vs. here: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ER_PPC only the PPC had a minimum range.

MWO is unwilling to play with weight and crit slots, which is reasonable, but they've already played with range already.

I think they should swap the min-range on the PPC vs the ERPPC. That would let the plain old PPC work fine in range, and make the ERPPC have a quirk due to being a long range weapon. I also think both are a little too hot. Reduce the heat on the PPC by 1, ERPPC by 1.5.

Then again, I think all energy weapons run too hot other than the ERLL (which feels about right heat wise).

Edited by Bront, 19 November 2013 - 03:30 PM.