216 replies to this topic

[Monky]

Jumpjets should be about tremendous upward mobility and not about providing a stable firing platform in midair, currently they work more like they are designed for hovering with some terrain movement /brawling advantages.

[Diego Angelus]

If mech has JJ there is absolutely no reason not to use it because there is no real drawback so I title of this thread is correct.

[Lord Perversor]

Bront, on 19 November 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

This! Not to mention you can't change your vector in the air and jumping backwards is harder now.

It's possible they need to adjust JJ's vertical lift so 1 JJ isn't as effective as it is. I've heard rumors that there was an error where a single JJ was as effective as full JJs, but I have not seen any evidence of this myself.

On early days of closed Beta 1x JJ was enough to provide maximum lift possible, in fact adding more JJ didn't increase the trust either.

Before the end of closed beta PGI fixed this part and mech began to behave as today with different numbers of JJ BUT and big BUT the vertical lift was nerfed 1-2 weeks later

Also there is rumours JJ vertical lift was nerfed again like 2-3 months ago (can't say for sure) but i can testify today JJ can't lift as high as the 1st months of Open beta. (at least from a 4x JJ Catapult who was aside the Jenner the only JJ capable mech i used )

Edited by Lord Perversor, 19 November 2013 - 04:58 PM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Mercules, on 19 November 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

How many MLs you need to be effective? Just one.

Feel free to set up a scrim with your 1ML SHS drop deck against a 1 JJ DHS company... Quite funny post tho, funny guy

[Sable Dove]

They need to fix fall damage.

If a Highlander or Cataphract jumps to its max height and just falls, it should be falling down and taking a significant amount of damage.

Assaults should have to save about half of their fuel for landing to avoid taking damage. Suddenly, jumpjets are being used for mobility instead of jumpshots, because jumpshots are going to start blowing out legs.

[Troutmonkey]

Sable Dove, on 19 November 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

They need to fix fall damage.

If a Highlander or Cataphract jumps to its max height and just falls, it should be falling down and taking a significant amount of damage.

Assaults should have to save about half of their fuel for landing to avoid taking damage. Suddenly, jumpjets are being used for mobility instead of jumpshots, because jumpshots are going to start blowing out legs.

^This

Why does a light which weighs 25 tonnes take MORE fall damage than an 90 tonne Highlander or 70 tonne Phract? I think this is the part that needs fixing. Nothing else. If you poptart and don't leave JJ fuel for a buffered landing, then expect to take noticeable damage to your legs. Do it too often and expect to lose a leg. This would be great balance because many assaults and heavies already skimp on leg armour for more firepower anyway.

[Khobai]

Some mechs with jumpjets do have drawbacks. The Catapult for example gets 2 less hardpoints than most other heavies.

But then other mechs with jumpjets have no drawbacks at all. The Highlander has the same number of hardpoints as an Atlas.

[Diego Angelus]

What I would like to have is choice to bring mech with JJs or sacrifice that mobility for firepower witch I think is reasonable.

[Bors Mistral]

Let's see... Currently Jump-Jets in MWO:

- take tonnage and crit-space (well, duh...)
- generate heat
- lack any directional control
- benefits of having more than a base number are minuscule

Yeah, if anything, JJ kind of need a buff (especially in cases where you have more than one installed) and more features. Make them more fun. And not in a stupid pop-tart direction, please.

[xRatas]

Jump Jets follow the tabletop game quite well: Mech with them is much better than mech without. With jumpjets, you could pretty much guarantee some close range back shots in dense terrain, while completely denying them from enemy. Initiative system did that you don't need lance full of jumping mechs, but in MWO real time ensures more JJ mechs is better.

What they would need to do to fix them, would be collisions and piloting failures: landing badly should make your mech fall prone and cause damage to yourself.

Poptarting and mobility advantage has been dominating in every mechwarrior game before this one, I'm not sure why people say it doesn't belong to Mechwarrior?

Because of stupid weapon hardpoints, there simply is no point using anything but jump capable mechs in serious games. If we had more restricting weapon hardpoints, balancing JJ capable mechs against others would have been much easier.

[Troutmonkey]

Diego Angelus, on 19 November 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

What are your thoughts on this ?

It think JJ's have plenty of draw backs, just like any weapon system. Do I take JJ's or do I take an extra tonne of ammo or a medium laser or maybe some more heat sinks? There's plenty of trade offs.

I am against any nerf to JJ's as it will be an indirect nerf to lights which are bad enough as it is. I'm all for naking fall damage greater for heavies / assaults because at the moment the damage they take from falling max distance is completely negligable.

[xRatas]

Troutmonkey, on 19 November 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

^This

Why does a light which weighs 25 tonnes take MORE fall damage than an 90 tonne Highlander or 70 tonne Phract? I think this is the part that needs fixing. Nothing else. If you poptart and don't leave JJ fuel for a buffered landing, then expect to take noticeable damage to your legs. Do it too often and expect to lose a leg. This would be great balance because many assaults and heavies already skimp on leg armour for more firepower anyway.

Because free fall acceleration has nothing to do with weight? The longer you fall, the faster you go. And it is the speed that is exponentially affecting kinetic energy. So lights falling from higher should take more damage unless we throw the physics out from the window. Also, bigger mech most likely has bigger shock absorbers and stronger structure anyway, so it might only make bigger hole on the ground after fall.

[Troutmonkey]

xRatas, on 19 November 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Because free fall acceleration has nothing to do with weight? The longer you fall, the faster you go. And it is the speed that is exponentially affecting kinetic energy. So lights falling from higher should take more damage unless we throw the physics out from the window. Also, bigger mech most likely has bigger shock absorbers and stronger structure anyway, so it might only make bigger hole on the ground after fall.

E = MC^2
Notice how mass is a crucial part of this formula? And going by the "shock absorber" theory lights would also have that, if not better. Have you ever noticed how MotorCross bikes can have much better suspension than any Big Rig / Prime Mover?Because the larger you get the harder it is to absorb the extra energy from the fall.

[Magic Space Mafia]

energy = magic * crack^2

I see no mass there. You all are crazy. Everybody knows that the field of magic replaced physics in Battletech.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Diego Angelus, on 19 November 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

I Have been thinking why jump jets don't have any drawback all you need is one ton to use it and even if you max it out its still light/takes little crit slots. So I was thinking that JJs should weight more,take more slots or create heat.

It is not just one ton to use. There are weight class differences. Jenner JJ is .5 ton, Catapult JJ is 1 ton, Highlander JJ is 2 tons.
The idea of taking more slots (based on tonnage of JJ?) would not necessarily appeal to me but not an unreasonable idea I suppose.

[Diego Angelus]

xMEPHISTOx, on 19 November 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

It is not just one ton to use. There are weight class differences. Jenner JJ is .5 ton, Catapult JJ is 1 ton, Highlander JJ is 2 tons.
The idea of taking more slots (based on tonnage of JJ?) would not necessarily appeal to me but not an unreasonable idea I suppose.

Something like that could work because its logical for that jj system to be larger. I would even go to a point to increase heat considerably (all classes) but that is not good at the moment since heat system is a mess.

Edited by Diego Angelus, 19 November 2013 - 08:44 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

The best fix for JJs is to add decay to the cone of fire that gets applied while your jets are burning. Right now it just turns off instantly as soon as you let off your jets. If they changed it so it lessened over time as you free-fell then it'd make pop-tarting much harder. In order to retain lighter mech mobility advantages I recommend having the decay be faster for lights and mediums and slower for heavies and assaults.

[Zyllos]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 19 November 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

The best fix for JJs is to add decay to the cone of fire that gets applied while your jets are burning. Right now it just turns off instantly as soon as you let off your jets. If they changed it so it lessened over time as you free-fell then it'd make pop-tarting much harder. In order to retain lighter mech mobility advantages I recommend having the decay be faster for lights and mediums and slower for heavies and assaults.

This would be a good start.

You also need to make the turning speed with jump jets a function of battlemech tonnage, number of jump jets, jump jet class, and chassis turning speed on the ground so that people don't just equip one jump jet to get the faster turning radius.

I think this should allow certain mechs (Spider) to be able to easily do 360+ turning jumps due to high number of jump jets while some jump mechs (Highlander) really only use it to clear obstacles.

Edited by Zyllos, 19 November 2013 - 09:23 PM.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 19 November 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

The best fix for JJs is to add decay to the cone of fire that gets applied while your jets are burning. Right now it just turns off instantly as soon as you let off your jets. If they changed it so it lessened over time as you free-fell then it'd make pop-tarting much harder. In order to retain lighter mech mobility advantages I recommend having the decay be faster for lights and mediums and slower for heavies and assaults.

That's a great idea Levi, either this or the heavy leg damage somebody mentioned earlier would be a good way to balance out the current poptart meta.

[akpavker]

i see a lot of poptart crybaby's here and no one has bothered to post a.......

LEARN HOW TO PLAY!!!! post yet?