216 replies to this topic

[ColourfulConfetti]

akpavker, on 19 November 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

i see a lot of poptart crybaby's here and no one has bothered to post a.......

LEARN HOW TO PLAY!!!! post yet?

and I spot a pop-tarter crybaby who desperately wants an abused mechanic to stay, yeah there's a reason poptarts are one of the few ways to play competitively, just what exactly do I do about a mech that only exposes itself for a second or two and pops off a 30-40 pinpoint alpha in my face? I can hit him (assuming I have a weapon of a similar range, most often is not the case) and do my best to avoid the damage or torso twist, sure, but its unlikely I'll always hit him where I want in such a small window of time and its pretty likely I'll take some considerable ct damage if hes any good, but yeah keep using that cute little learn to play mantra.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 19 November 2013 - 10:20 PM.

[xRatas]

Troutmonkey, on 19 November 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

E = MC^2
Notice how mass is a crucial part of this formula? And going by the "shock absorber" theory lights would also have that, if not better. Have you ever noticed how MotorCross bikes can have much better suspension than any Big Rig / Prime Mover?Because the larger you get the harder it is to absorb the extra energy from the fall.

No 5#!+ Sherlock. Or should I say Einstein? You also note how your c is multiplied by itself, affecting E much more than m. Also note that in this particular example we are not using constant speed but constant acceleration.

I've seen quite serious suspension in those All 'murican monstertrucks. I'd say they rival motocross bike quite nicely. Both are built to withstand the mass of said vehicle and it's common load landing from reasonable fall. Ofcouse, dropped on same height, heavier vehicle gets hit harder. But I also see spider fly much higher than Highlanders.

Also, if you throw physics out from giant robot game, they don't feel giant robots anymore, but toy robots instead. Following familiar physics helps the immersion quite a bit. So I'd rather see basic physics done right than magic multiplied by pile of cookies.

Edited by xRatas, 19 November 2013 - 11:15 PM.

[Diego Angelus]

We need those JJs to affect heavier mechs more, hell Highlander needs only 1 JJ to poptart and now tell me how is that big enough drawback ? If highlander needed like 3-4 JJ to be able to jump effectively then that is a draw back I'm looking for.

[Antonio]

This is for you guys trying to bring physics into battletech . The equations you want are K_E=mv² and v=sqrt(2gd)

What does this mean?
If I have 2 Jenners and one of them jumps twice as high it is going to land with 2 times as much energy.
If I have a Jenner and a Highlander jump to the same height the Highlander will land with about 2.5 times as much energy.

Not sure exactly how total energy should be converted to damage though because I would imagine the legs of a highlander are more durable than a Jenners legs.

Edited to fix incorrect physics. Also using U=mgh gives the same result and is simpler. (Thanks YueFei)

Edited by Antonio, 20 November 2013 - 01:13 AM.

[YueFei]

Antonio, on 19 November 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

This is for you guys trying to bring physics into battletech . The equation you want is K_E=mv²

What does this mean?
If I have 2 Jenners and one of them jumps twice as high it is going to land with 4 times as much energy.
If I have a Jenner and a Highlander jump to the same height the Highlander will land with about 2.5 times as much energy.

Not sure exactly how total energy should be converted to damage though because I would imagine the legs of a highlander are more durable than a Jenners legs.

Not quite, if one Jenner jumps twice as high as another Jenner, it lands with twice the energy. It scales linearly with distance (remember potential energy equation?). Keep in mind as you accelerate toward the ground, falling twice the distance does not double your speed. Rather, your speed increases by the sqrt(2) multiplied by the speed of the first Jenner that falls from a shorter height.

Potential energy equation:
U = mgh

where 'm' is mass, 'g' is acceleration due to gravity, and 'h' is the height. 'm' and 'g' are the same in both cases, height is doubled, so potential energy is doubled, not quadrupled.

[Antonio]

YueFei, on 20 November 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

Not quite, if one Jenner jumps twice as high as another Jenner, it lands with twice the energy. It scales linearly with distance (remember potential energy equation?). Keep in mind as you accelerate toward the ground, falling twice the distance does not double your speed. Rather, your speed increases by the sqrt(2) multiplied by the speed of the first Jenner that falls from a shorter height.

Potential energy equation:
U = mgh

where 'm' is mass, 'g' is acceleration due to gravity, and 'h' is the height. 'm' and 'g' are the same in both cases, height is doubled, so potential energy is doubled, not quadrupled.

Oops...you're right. I edited my post to fix things but U=mgh is a better way at looking at it. I never liked physics to be honest and work as a chemical engineer.

Anyway, so 2 of the same mech should take damage proportional to the height but it is more complicated comparing lights to assaults falling because an assault has stronger legs but will fall with more energy at the same height. Also generally lights fly higher so they may even have just as much energy as an assault when they fall but weaker legs.

[MustrumRidcully]

Yes, but they have drawbacks already. They cost tonnage, they produce heat, cockpit shake.

But apparantly that's not enough for some.

IMO, Jump jets do not grant you enough maneuverability, height or speed, and heavies and assaults shouldn't use them mostly for poptarting, but instead for getting to places they couldn't so easily get otherwise.

I would increase the forward speed notably, and increase the max height and distance possible with jump jets. To compensate, I might inrease their heat production further (maybe basing it on the total weight of the jump jets, with the current heat gained from jumping beeing the heat for 0.5 tons worth of JJs? Testing testing testing). This should impact lighter mechs the least (since you can get further with less jump jets or shorter jump jet uses, overall keeping the heat generation low), but limit heavier mechs ability to use it for poptarting, because you move too far and produce moreheat, but they still benefit from the increased jump distance and height.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 20 November 2013 - 01:38 AM.

[Diego Angelus]

MustrumRidcully, on 20 November 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

Yes, but they have drawbacks already. They cost tonnage, they produce heat, cockpit shake.

But apparantly that's not enough for some.

IMO, Jump jets do not grant you enough maneuverability, height or speed, and heavies and assaults shouldn't use them mostly for poptarting, but instead for getting to places they couldn't so easily get otherwise.

I would increase the forward speed notably, and increase the max height and distance possible with jump jets. To compensate, I might inrease their heat production further (maybe basing it on the total weight of the jump jets, with the current heat gained from jumping beeing the heat for 0.5 tons worth of JJs? Testing testing testing). This should impact lighter mechs the least (since you can get further with less jump jets or shorter jump jet uses, overall keeping the heat generation low), but limit heavier mechs ability to use it for poptarting, because you move too far and produce moreheat, but they still benefit from the increased jump distance and height.

So you think its fine to get jjs for 2 tons on highlander and do poptarting ? I don't think anyone can call that a drawback its more like free JJs.

I don't think something like that is going to work because you have to increase heat a lot, it will take a lot of time for it to dissipate there for you won't be able to fire for a while (maybe if ghost heat gets fixed it could work). Simplest solution would be to increase weight by forcing heavier mechs to use more JJs so poptarting is still viable but not effective as before because they will have to sacrifice a lot to be able to do it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mystere, on 19 November 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

JJs already have a major drawback: You can be shot out of the sky.

Which reminds me, is this a legit poll or another anti-poptart rant masquerading as one.




And you just killed the fun out of JJ-equipped lights taking full advantage of the third dimension ( ). As such, instead of asking for nerfs with unintended consequences, maybe you should just learn how to properly deal with poptarts by not being like a big, fat, and slow British Matilda II tank trying to rush an Afrika Korps 8.8 cm Flak 37 ( ).

Sir Pop Tarting is not a part of the Universe you are playing in. In all the novels >5 could jump and shoot.

[Livewyr]

Thinking:

When JJs are fired, weapons become inactive.

Weapons reactivate some time after JJ's have stopped.
(Option A: A flat 2 seconds afterward, or Option B for the same length of time the JJs were fired.)

[Lucian Nostra]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 November 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

Sir Pop Tarting is not a part of the Universe you are playing in. In all the novels >5 could jump and shoot.

To bad it was also in the game the novels where based off huh? Nothing stopped a mech from jumping full distance, spinning 180 degrees and firing all it's weapons. Sure it was harder to hit(walking added +1, running +2 and jumping +3) which I believe reticle shake compensates for well enough as it wasn't all that much harder to do land a hit than running

Also just because it only happened in 5 books doesn't mean it's not in universe, look at how many times in the novels mechs went down to 2 or 3 hits "because", does that now mean per book fluff that all mechs are far to durable in MWO as well as TT? I mean I've never lost mechs at the rates they die in novels on average in TT or MWO..

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 20 November 2013 - 07:35 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lucian Nostra, on 20 November 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

To bad it was in the game the novels where based off huh? Nothing stopped a mech from jumping full distance, spinning 180 degrees and firing all it's weapons. Sure it was harder to hit(walking added +1, running +2 and jumping +3) which I believe reticle shake compensates for well enough as it wasn't all that much harder to do land a hit than running

All weapons fire took place from the hex landed in, after the jump, in the game, if that is what you are saying. Just follow those rules and Pop Tarting is gone.

remember Lucian, I have no problem with players Pop Tarting personally, but I am just supporting a more Canon feel. If Pop Tarts never gets another Nerf I have no problems.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 20 November 2013 - 07:34 AM.

[Lucian Nostra]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 November 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

All weapons fire took place from the hex landed in, after the jump, in the game, if that is what you are saying. Just follow those rules and Pop Tarting is gone.

remember Lucian, I have no problem with players Pop Tarting personally, but I am just supporting a more Canon feel. If Pop Tarts never gets another Nerf I have no problems.

Simply because Btech requires completed movement per it's rules system 80s generated game system. More akin to not being able to jump and shoot would be not being able to fire at all that turn like you can't while sprinting or evading.





I could go on with more canon pictures but ya know? It's always been there, the game is an abstraction

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 20 November 2013 - 07:46 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Bront, on 19 November 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

It's possible they need to adjust JJ's vertical lift so 1 JJ isn't as effective as it is. I've heard rumors that there was an error where a single JJ was as effective as full JJs, but I have not seen any evidence of this myself.

In closed beta through the first several months of open beta 1 JJ was as effective as multiple JJ. It is no longer the case. However, I feel that without the full complement of JJ Jump turning should be much more difficult/slow.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lucian Nostra, on 20 November 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

Simply because Btech requires completed movement per it's rules system 80s generated game system. More akin to not being able to jump and shoot would be not being able to fire at all that turn like you can't while sprinting or evading.





I could go on with more canon pictures but ya know? It's always been there, the game is an abstraction

Illustrations are not rules. As an Artist myself, I was taught something called "Artistic License". You just posted 3 examples of it.

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 November 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

Illustrations are not rules. As an Artist myself, I was taught something called "Artistic License". You just posted 3 examples of it.

Well, in MWO's case then, PGI used that same "Artistic License" to "enhance" JJ capability, much in the same way that screenwriters make changes to a story found in a book.

Remember Starship Troopers?

Edited by Mystere, 20 November 2013 - 08:02 AM.

[Lucian Nostra]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 November 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

Illustrations are not rules. As an Artist myself, I was taught something called "Artistic License". You just posted 3 examples of it.

So I guess than your in favor of initiative based movement inside MWO than right? It's the rules, and it's canon that you move I move you move.

I mean sure TT extrapolates and tells you your moving simultaneously even though you aren't (like jumping and shooting, the rules don't let you fire from where you want because it requires you finish moving before shooting) but the fluff art and everything support both.

It's also why you can't charge a mech that hasn't moved (since he'll walk alway) but can charge a mech that has moved because he can't walk away, even though he's still moving per game fluff!

edit: It's also the reason in TT that when you shoot your shooting from your ending hex vs along your path, why wouldn't a light pilot fire as he runs by a target and dashes into the woods? Because sadly the rules are in phases and can't compensate for basic things

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 20 November 2013 - 08:07 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mystere, on 20 November 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Well, in MWO's case then, PGI used that same "Artistic License" to "enhance" JJ capability, in the same way that screenwriters make changes to a story found in a book.

So if its an "enhancement" why are so many complaining about it?

I realize "Scrubs", but some of the scrubs are only voicing an issue with consistency with the parent IP.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lucian Nostra, on 20 November 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

So I guess than your in favor of initiative based movement inside MWO than right? It's the rules, and it's canon that you move I move you move.

I mean sure TT extrapolates and tells you your moving simultaneously even though you aren't (like jumping and shooting, the rules don't let you fire from where you want because it requires you finish moving before shooting) but the fluff art and everything support both.

It's also why you can't charge a mech that hasn't moved (since he'll walk alway) but can charge a mech that has moved because he can't walk away, even though he's still moving per game fluff!

We already have an initiative based game here. It is reflected in our Frame rate or lack there of

The Rules for TT are you Jump, land, then calculate you to hit Mods from the point you stopped moving.

As I said I think it is the bee's knees that we can Jump and shoot while in the air... But it is not the right feel for the way it works in universe. *Shrug* either way is fine to me.

[Cpt Leprechaun]

Mystere, on 19 November 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

JJs already have a major drawback: You can be shot out of the sky.

Which reminds me, is this a legit poll or another anti-poptart rant masquerading as one.




And you just killed the fun out of JJ-equipped lights taking full advantage of the third dimension ( ). As such, instead of asking for nerfs with unintended consequences, maybe you should just learn how to properly deal with poptarts by not being like a big, fat, and slow British Matilda II tank trying to rush an Afrika Korps 8.8 cm Flak 37 ( ).

The JJ was a buff with the unintended consequence of poptarting. as I said they should be used for positioning to a spot where you can snipe or getting over rough terrain.or in other words increaseing maneuverability like you said they should. also this could be modified to make it so only high-caliber weapons cant be fired in the air(PPC/ERPPC/AC5/UAC5/AC10/LBX10/AC20) there you go now light mechs can make use of the "third dimension". I also agree with the point that a single JJ should not be as effective as it is right now.

"JJs already have a major drawback: You can be shot out of the sky."
due to instant convergence when you try to lead a target in the air you are actually aiming at something very far in the background. making hitting targets in the air many times hard than it is on the ground. so no this is not a major drawback it actually makes you more survivable in any situation.