169 replies to this topic

[Krav]

So, just throwing out my 2c for Paul and the dev team. I completely understand that there is a whole world of game design, development technology, and other related business information that I know nothing about, so this opinion is from the perspective of what I read in your post. Please accept it as constructive criticism and do with it what you will.

Warning: Wall of text ahead. TL;DR - If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

On the surface, this seems like a change that adds a layer of complexity and confusion without actually adding anything meaningful in terms of balance, fun, immersion, or monetization. The logic path that currently exists in the mech lab splits (roughly) into two channels:

1. The first path deals with which weapons and associated ammunition you choose.
2. The second path deals with which global upgrades or modifications to your mech you choose.

(This is a DRASTIC oversimplification for the purposes of this illustration.)

In the current implementation, Artemis is a choice on the second path, which enhances a specific subset of items from the first path. If you choose the Artemis upgrade, you are adding a system to your mech that interfaces with missile weapons that you have installed. In order to properly function, you need to choose ammunition that is specially designed to interface with the Artemis system. The launchers take up more room and weight in order to accept the input from the Artemis system, but they are conceptually otherwise UNCHANGED.

The new implementation dictates that a standard launcher and an Artemis launcher are fundamentally different. It blurs those two logic paths by forcing a player to choose an upgrade and a specific weapon system. It adds a need for two different "piles" of launchers in your inventory, and additional micromanagement on the part of the player when switching between standard and Artemis. This is just extra clicks and extra work on the player's part, it confuses the fairly simple logic paths, and I'm not sure what benefit it brings the game or the development team.

I would suggest that this change is unneeded. If it helps frame the issue differently for the designers, think of a launcher as a structure with tubes, loaders, and some kind of triggering mechanism. When you select the Artemis system, the upgrade automatically adds a "plug-in module" to whatever launchers you install in your mech. It's just a computer subsystem that handles the Artemis targeting work for that launcher. You still need to install specially designed ammunition to interface with Artemis, but that's it. If you select standard guidance again, that "plug-in module" is removed from your launchers again. If you remove a launcher from your mech, the "plug-in module" doesn't go with the launcher; it's just put back on the shelf. The basic launcher is still just a launcher.

That's it.

No need for separate weapon inventories, and the logic stands up. Again, I'm just not sure this is a problem that needs fixing, and I don't see how the added complexity adds anything to the game in terms of balance, immersion, fun, monetization, etc. Anyway, that's just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

I think you guys are doing a great job designing a fun game. Keep up the good work!

[Drunk Canuck]

Belorion, on 19 November 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

It should be that an Artemis enabled mech can still use regular launchers.

But that's not canon with the lore. Either a Mech was equipped with standard missile systems or it had the Artemis IV FCS, there was no in between.

[Drunk Canuck]

Sybreed, on 19 November 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

Here's my feedback:

WHY AREN'T YOU REWORKING NARC INSTEAD OF ARTEMIS AGAIN, ARGH

SERIOUSLY, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU

I feel better now

No sense in fixing what isn't technically broken. NARC works exactly as it always has.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

People asking for refunds of their imaginary space cash cracks me up.

Actual feedback: This is an ok change. I have no issue with separating the launchers, but I don't get why the upgrade cost is still there. Allowing mixed ALRMS plus non-A SRMS would be amazing, but if you upgrade a mech to artemis is seems like you'll only be able to put on artemis missiles. I hope you can mix, that would be a grand old time!

Pro-tip: before this functionality goes live, drop the engine on your artemis mechs and stuff in as many big launchers as hardpoints allow to get the most artemis launchers for free!

[Tannhauser Gate]

Annoyed that I paid the way higher price. ((now 75k, was 250K so 333% higher x no. of mechs)

However, very glad to see updates.

[Sybreed]

Drunk Canuck, on 20 November 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

No sense in fixing what isn't technically broken. NARC works exactly as it always has.

yes, seeing absolutely no one using NARC is a perfect proof that it's not broken at all.

[Trauglodyte]

As I understand it, you have your mech and are looking at build 1 and build 2.

• Build, you don't need nor want Artemis for your launchers so you'd build it as normal.
  
• Build, you want Artemis but cannot equip Artemis enhanced launchers without the integrated equipment for the cockpit. So, you pay the upgrade cost and may now equip both kinds of launchers which allows you to take advantage of the upgrade if you'd like or not if you want to change to a different build.

So, under this understanding, my current Centurion build would automatically change the current LRM10s w/ Artemis to permanent ALRM10s. If I wanted to run normal LRM10s, I could switch them out (and they'd have a seperate inventory slot as ALRM10s) and then apply the 2 tons freed up by the change to something different without having to spend half of the original Artemis cost to down grade.

This is a very good change as it saves money in the long run. They just didn't do a very good job explaining it. But hey, grasping intent through text isn't always easy.

[MoonUnitBeta]

C-bill reimbursement on upgrades spent on Artimes?
Then recharge for missiles currently equipped on Artimes upgraded mechs?

You are potentially spending Premium paying customers money/time any time you mess with C-bills. I get the F2P model, but this isn’t beta anymore folks. Changes have consiquences now, and you admit that this current model is wrong.

50% XP and C-bill boost for real money is not enough to offset the constant changes in gameplay and c-bill earnings. We have seen changes with rearm and repair, a 30% reduction in c-bills in August, and now our past purchases on upgrade are wasted time spent on farming c-bills.

So all I ask is: What is PGI doing to reduce the risks incurred when purchasing Premium Time and encourage its purchase?
If no answer can be provided for that question, then I ask: When does PGI feel they are going to achieve a stable economy so that premium time purchases can be used effectively?

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 20 November 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[Nacon]

Option to have both Non-Artemis and Artemis-Enabled missiles is much desired.

However, the changes Paul wishes to change is... pointless. Don't fix what isn't broken.

Edited by Nacon, 20 November 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Without arguing the need or viability of this update...we need a developer to clarify what's being said.

• The cost of upgrading Artemis is being significantly reduced. (750,000 CB to 250,000 CB)

Okay, that's clear.

• Artemis and non-Artemis launchers are now unique items and cannot be mixed and matched.

Also seems pretty clear...you will no longer have the ability to drop non-Artemis launchers into an Artemis-upgraded 'mech and have them convert. Fine.

• Artemis missile ammunition is already its own item type and will not change.

Also very clear, it stays the same.

• Any Artemis equipped Mech in your current inventory will have its launchers automatically converted to the new Artemis Missile Launcher item type.

What exactly are they saying? Do they mean "When you purchase the Artemis upgrade, any equipped missiles on a 'mech are converted to the unique Artemis launchers?" Or are they saying "For all of you guys who already have Artemis on your 'mechs with the current system, we will upgrade your launchers to Artemis, too."

If it's the first, then the next line Paul writes doesn't make sense.

• Removing Artemis from a current Artemis enabled BattleMech will require a repurchase of standard missile launchers if you so wish to use them.

That would mean that having standard missiles on a 'mech that you upgrade to Artemis also upgrades your launchers, but it DOESN'T work in reverse...creating a money sink forcing you to buy standard launchers again. If it consistently converts standard missiles EVERY TIME you switch a 'mech from standard to artemis-upgraded, then it's also GREATLY DISCOURAGING experimenting with different builds. In a game based on 'making different builds' that's just plain asinine.

That's why I HOPE what they mean is "For all of you guys who already have Artemis on your 'mechs with the current system, we will upgrade your launchers to Artemis, too, and moving forward the upgrade cost of Artemis will simply enable Artemis or Standard missiles to be put on your 'mech, as unique items that you buy separately in the mechlab.

Basically, for everyone who's already spent 750k instead of 250k on their Artemis, they are being thrown a bone and given a one-time opportunity to convert as many standard missiles to Artemis as they can throw on their mechs.

If we could get Dev clarification on this, I think a lot of us would REALLY appreciate it.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 20 November 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Ghost Badger, on 20 November 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

• Any Artemis equipped Mech in your current inventory will have its launchers automatically converted to the new Artemis Missile Launcher item type.

What exactly are they saying? Do they mean "When you purchase the Artemis upgrade, any equipped missiles on a 'mech are converted to the unique Artemis launchers?" Or are they saying "For all of you guys who already have Artemis on your 'mechs with the current system, we will upgrade your launchers to Artemis, too." If it's the first, then the next line Paul writes doesn't make sense.

If you had a mech equipped with Artemis right now, when this feature goes through, the launchers on that mech will go from normal to Artemis permanent. That means that you'd have to end up buying a normal launcher, or equipping a normal launcher if you have them, in its place. Essentially, you're burning a launcher at the time of the change because of this.

Quote

• Removing Artemis from a current Artemis enabled BattleMech will require a repurchase of standard missile launchers if you so wish to use them.

That would mean that having standard missiles on a 'mech that you upgrade to Artemis also upgrades your launchers, but it DOESN'T work in reverse...creating a money sink forcing you to buy standard launchers again. If it consistently converts standard missiles EVERY TIME you switch a 'mech from standard to artemis-upgraded, then it's also GREATLY DISCOURAGING experimenting with different builds. In a game based on 'making different builds' that's just plain asinine. That's why I HOPE what they mean is "For all of you guys who already have Artemis on your 'mechs with the current system, we will upgrade your launchers to Artemis, too, and moving forward the upgrade cost of Artemis will simply enable Artemis or Standard missiles to be put on your 'mech, as unique items that you buy separately in the mechlab. Basically, for everyone who's already spent 750k instead of 250k on their Artemis, they are being thrown a bone and given a one-time opportunity to convert as many standard missiles to Artemis as they can throw on their mechs. If we could get Dev clarification on this, I think a lot of us would REALLY appreciate it.

See above. If your mech has Artemis on it now, when the changes goes through, they go from standard to permanent Artemis installed. The good thing is that once you equip Artemis on a mech, now for a much reduced cost, the cost of switching out launcher types is majorly reduced. If you have an Art-Mech, you can still run non-Art launchers without having to upgrade/degrade all of the time. The only cost that you're going to have is buying new launchers if you don't have them. But, that cost is much lower than dropping 750k every time you change your mind.

[Deathlike]

Ghost Badger, on 20 November 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

• Any Artemis equipped Mech in your current inventory will have its launchers automatically converted to the new Artemis Missile Launcher item type.

What exactly are they saying? Do they mean "When you purchase the Artemis upgrade, any equipped missiles on a 'mech are converted to the unique Artemis launchers?" Or are they saying "For all of you guys who already have Artemis on your 'mechs with the current system, we will upgrade your launchers to Artemis, too."

Basically, when the patch with this change goes live, any mech with Artemis enhanced launchers are "converted" into the new system w/o payment. Whatever regular non-Artemis launchers (in your inventory) will be left as itself, and not be counted towards your Artemis launcher count.

Quote

If it's the first, then the next line Paul writes doesn't make sense.

• Removing Artemis from a current Artemis enabled BattleMech will require a repurchase of standard missile launchers if you so wish to use them.

That would mean that having standard missiles on a 'mech that you upgrade to Artemis also upgrades your launchers, but it DOESN'T work in reverse...creating a money sink forcing you to buy standard launchers again. If it consistently converts standard missiles EVERY TIME you switch a 'mech from standard to artemis-upgraded, then it's also GREATLY DISCOURAGING experimenting with different builds. In a game based on 'making different builds' that's just plain asinine.

He's referring to the upgrade. You might have Artemis launchers in your inventory, but you can't add them to your mech unless your mech has the Artemis upgrade (think SHS and DHS).

Chances are, you will have tons of non-Artemis missile launchers, and very few Artemis launchers for most stock builds (Cent-D has Artemis IIRC, so you get an Artemis launcher with that build)

Quote

That's why I HOPE what they mean is "For all of you guys who already have Artemis on your 'mechs with the current system, we will upgrade your launchers to Artemis, too, and moving forward the upgrade cost of Artemis will simply enable Artemis or Standard missiles to be put on your 'mech, as unique items that you buy separately in the mechlab.

That's what he meant, more or less.

Quote

Basically, for everyone who's already spent 750k instead of 250k on their Artemis, they are being thrown a bone and given a one-time opportunity to convert as many standard missiles to Artemis as they can throw on their mechs.

Yes.

Look at it this way, the only difference we have now and the proposed system is that we will have Artemis LRM/SRM weapons that cost 100k more and be distinct instead of the current system where they are one and the same.

Edited by Deathlike, 20 November 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[SpiralFace]

I think you more or less got the idea.

To me, it sounds like if you already have Artemis systems linked to your standard launchers on your mech, those launchers will be converted to the "Artemis" launchers for free. (Which will now be a unique weapon rather then an attachment upgrade.)

I don't think they mean that EVERY time you equip standard launchers on Artemis equipped mechs that they will auto convert over (thus forcing you to change the upgrade to your mech.)

But rather when the "change over" those launchers with Artemis linked to them will be converted over to the unique Artemis item as a part of the change over. From that point on, Artemis and non Artemis launchers will be counted as separate, launchers, so future purchases would need a separate launcher. But you should still be able to mix and match them on your mechs. (As they would just be counted as separate weapon systems from that point on.)

Yeah, that kinda sucks that you have to "buy" the standard launchers again if you want to experiment, but I don't think they are going to limit the kind of launchers you can equip on the frame as a whole. Just that they will be counted as separate weapon systems, and that any Artemis linked weapons would just get an auto change over to the new item type when this change hits.

[AlmightyAeng]

Trauglodyte,

I appreciate you restating one of my paragraphs, and saying "Yes, this" but you aren't a dev. I agree that it's what makes sense, but Paul has written it in a fashion that is open to interpretation, hence my request for clarification.

Trauglodyte, on 20 November 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

If you have an Art-Mech, you can still run non-Art launchers without having to upgrade/degrade all of the time. The only cost that you're going to have is buying new launchers if you don't have them. But, that cost is much lower than dropping 750k every time you change your mind.

Actually, the dev quote seems to say the exact OPPOSITE of that...saying that you DO have to continue to upgrade/degrade to switch between the two.This is why I'm asking the Dev's to be clearer, because people can hypothesize back and forth and it accomplishes nothing.

[Effectz]

How about fixing SRMS Paul.

[Heffay]

I think it means that prior to the change, you'll want to load your currently Artemis equipped mechs with as many LRM 20, 15, 10 and 5s as they can hold.

[AlmightyAeng]

Deathlike, SpiralFace,

Thank you. Your explanations ALSO make the most sense to me and are what I'm hoping they mean.

But considering our past track record with devs as far as assumptions go, combined with the wild discussions on the first 5 pages of this thread about having LRMs with Artemis and SRM's without on the SAME MECH...I think some clear dev clarification might be in order.

[Deathlike]

Ghost Badger, on 20 November 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Actually, the dev quote seems to say the exact OPPOSITE of that...saying that you DO have to continue to upgrade/degrade to switch between the two.This is why I'm asking the Dev's to be clearer, because people can hypothesize back and forth and it accomplishes nothing.

You will probably have to downgrade to use the regular launchers... which is more or less the same we have now.

The only difference is having Artemis launchers vs non-Artemis launchers. What we have now is considering Artemis and non-Artemis launchers as one and the same (you have the same # in your inventory when you compare a non-Artemis enabled mech vs an Artemis enabled mech).

[ShadowbaneX]

While I've currently got like 60,000,000 c-bills, so I've got no trouble buying more launchers, it still feels like a bit of an...inelegant solution. Couldn't you just have missiles systems that sort of operate the way Engines do? Have one launcher, as opposed to two launchers, (ie one Artemis, one none-Artemis) then have an Artemis IV FCS available under the Configure Equipment tab. Then make them similar to Double Heat Sinks in which you can just drag them in from the menu and over to your desired Launcher and drop it in. Doing so would add a ton and the extra slot. I can see that last part being the difficult part because you have to make the number of slots an item takes up dynamic, but you've already got the dynamic weight system with 275+ rated engines.

[Deathlike]

Ghost Badger, on 20 November 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Deathlike, SpiralFace,

Thank you. Your explanations ALSO make the most sense to me and are what I'm hoping they mean.

But considering our past track record with devs as far as assumptions go, combined with the wild discussions on the first 5 pages of this thread about having LRMs with Artemis and SRM's without on the SAME MECH...I think some clear dev clarification might be in order.

I think the Artemis on all (that can use them) or none rule is still in effect. I think that'll still be the stickler rule for a bit.

TBH, Paul's never really clear on what he's changing until the day of the patch.

I suggest that if you are unsure, just join the public server testing day, whenever that happens to be operational.

Edited by Deathlike, 20 November 2013 - 11:18 AM.