82 replies to this topic

[Lupin]

Personally I thought the point of pulse lasers was faster recycle time and able to delivery better damage (pulse not beam and damage over time like normal laser), cost/balance was heat,range and weight.

At the moment they meet none of the above, so am I missing something that they are working as intended?

Edited by Lupin, 21 November 2013 - 02:20 PM.

[Durant Carlyle]

There is nothing wrong with pulse lasers.

They are deliberately shorter-ranged than standard lasers. They also are supposed to be heavier, slightly hotter and do slightly more damage at much shorter range.

And in this game they have shorter beam duration so it's easier to do more damage to a single location. That's the -2 Gunnery bonus.

Not every weapon can be a long-ranged weapon. Not every weapon can be viable for every build. We do that, and we might as well have only one energy weapon, one ballistic weapon, and one missile weapon.

What you guys are saying about pulses is like saying SRM launchers should have similar stats to LRM launchers. And that ain't right.

I see pulses in matches all of the time, mediums and larges more than smalls.

They are indeed working as intended.

[3rdworld]

Lower their duration.

Make them very close to a pinpoint damage weapon.

[Suko]

I want Pulse Lasers to become the energy equivalent of ballistics: A lot of up-front damage delivered almost instantaneously in an extremely short bust.

That's it. Leave the weight and heat the same, I'm cool with that. Just shorten the beam duration to about 1/3 what it currently is.

[Khobai]

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And in this game they have shorter beam duration so it's easier to do more damage to a single location. That's the -2 Gunnery bonus.

Except that its not. -2 is a HUGE bonus in tabletop. 0.6 duration instead of 1.0 duration is a small bonus at best.

[Greyboots]

Drunk Canuck, on 21 November 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

There is no reason to carry them in pug matches,

I disagree. I have multiple mechs with medium and large pulse lasers and I only PUG.

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[color=#959595]their heat generation versus standard lasers and the damage output make them a waste of tonnage for heavier Mech's

[/color]

[color=#959595]The accuracy of that statement aside, what does mech size have to do with it? If they work fine on mediums but are buffed based on Heavies to make them worth it on those mechs, doesn't that make them OP on mediums? Buffing because one aspect is lacking isn't a good approach. [/color]

[color=#959595]There is nothing wrong with them working on some mechs but not on others, otherwise I wan't a twin AC jenner. (over exaggeration denotes emphasis, not contempt .)[/color]


I play primarily Medium mechs. One of my Blackjacks, one of my Hunchbacks and my Kintaro all run with medium pulse lasers. The damage Vs hear tatio on a medium laser is 1:1.25 where the medium pulse is 1:1.2 so it's not that far off in those terms (I get a little hotter a little quicker but I also deal more damage quicker to a smaller area, which IMO is a nice tradeoff). I'm usually at quite short ranges so the reduced range isn't a serious issue.

Lights tend not to be able to pack on enough heat sinks or lack available weight to make them of any real benefit for my tastes but I know there's people using small pulses and loving them.

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I'd be curious to know what the community thinks should be done to get pulse lasers back into viability.

This isn't to say that I don't think medium pulse lasers need some love. They are structured mostly according to "because that's how battletech did it" so they are currently under-performers. I do, however, disagree on why they should be looked at for a revamp. Just because large mechs can't make a lot of good use out of them (and I disagree in special cases) isn't any reason why they need a change.

Honestly? The only real change that needs to happen is to drop the whole 2x optimal for max range on lasers" limit. It's arbitrary and incapable of providing a framework for any real balance. Honestly? Keep the current optimal ranges and then j extend the max range on them to equal with the max range on the Small, Medium and Large laser and call it a day. They'd be pretty close to spot on after that. Better damage close up, less damage at longer ranges. Noce tradeoff for the weight and heat penalties.

[Bagheera]

Khobai, on 21 November 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

EIther that or pulse lasers should get bonus damage at close range, because theyre supposed to be knifefighting weapons.

This is an interesting idea.

[Praehotec8]

Pulse lasers can be used, and I, in fact, prefer them, but they are far from optimized. They really could use either a drop in weight, heat generation, or both.

[Troutmonkey]

SPL Seem fine. Boated them on my JennerF for a bit and seemed ok
MPL needs work. For the Same price of 4xMPL I could have 6xML with more damage, more range and tonnage for a few extra heatsinks
LPL is pretty bad. The extra tonnage eats into heatsinks, the lower range means lower damage at most ranges, and the small amount of extra damage you deal in range isn't worth the extra heat you accure. 3 burst with 2xLPL and 18 DHS will still nearly overheat you, whereas I can chain fire LLs much more effeciantly.

My vote is up damage + reduce heat on MPL slightly and up damage + reduce heat a bit more on LPL. Wouldn't touch the ranges as they are meant to be fairly short ranged. Fix SRM hit detection and buff MPL and LPL and brawling will come back for sure.

[Drunk Canuck]

Praehotec8, on 21 November 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Pulse lasers can be used, and I, in fact, prefer them, but they are far from optimized. They really could use either a drop in weight, heat generation, or both.

I think the heat generation for Large Pulse Lasers is actually decent, could they use a heat generation drop? Sure, but maybe no more then 1%. Running two in an Assault Mech with a 1.5 heat efficiency you still wind up at around 30% heat if you fire them as a pair. And mediums aren't much better really.

Edited by Drunk Canuck, 21 November 2013 - 04:35 PM.

[Tezcatli]

Only small pulse lasers are where they need to be. I think they need to seriously drop the extra heat for the others. You're better off with the regular versions since they're longer ranged, lower heat, and the weight saved can get you more heatsinks.

I suggested before they lower the cooldown. But someone felt that would just make them less effective because they were already high heat.

[Khobai]

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I suggested before they lower the cooldown. But someone felt that would just make them less effective because they were already high heat.

Instead of lower cooldown, just give them higher damage. Pulse lasers should get a damage bonus the closer you are to the target. That makes pulse lasers weapons you want to get close to the target with while normal lasers are weapons you want to stay as far away from the target as possible with.

[Flying Judgement]

Sprouticus, on 21 November 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Seaking of Wub-wub, I STILL prefer the origional sound of the pulse lasers early in close beta., They sounded like the lasers in Terminator and it was awesome.

It would be so nice if we could change the sounds to the old or to the new ones, in the options.
You know what, i would even buy it for MC and im all out for purple lasers
I hope we can buy different weapons from different manufacturers including the old sounds and look and an unique 3D model.

I avoid ACs because its to loud

Large pulse: well they are just weak i love them but they are really week. Shorter duration wont help. Faster recycle time?
In most situation i cant use it because of heat but who know it may work. I think plus 1 or 2 Damage would help to be more useful than a PPC. it should be the ultimate brawling weapon.

[Satan n stuff]

The problem with pulses is that while they're supposedly better for players who have trouble keeping lasers on target for whatever reason ( not always lack of skill ) a lot of the time people just end up missing more with them and the result is that they've essentially got a weaker, shorter ranged heavier weapon with a lower heat efficiency than if they'd just used regular lasers.
It takes some skill to use them effectively, but with very few exceptions players that can use them effectively are even more effective with regular lasers.
They're only really good for light on light in urban combat or assault on light to counter circling and dodging, and in both cases the lack of range is a massive handicap.

[Frytrixa]

I think its just a combination of weapon and the mech you've chosen.
With a fast mech you can go for hit and run.
Actual I'm running around with my Jester, 6xMPULSE and 23xDoubleHS @ 85kph - its a very effective scalpel

[B1zmark]

The bashing of pulse lasers seems to be near constant, but i find pulse variants to apply damage so much more effectively. As a secondary weapon i find pulses increase my effective damage much more than standard lasers.

This is doubly true for faster mechs, the difference between 0.6 seconds and 1.0 seconds is HUGE when dodging between object... especally when trying to single out a component on a turning mech. They also do around 20% more damage, which makes up for some of the range deficit when out-of-optimal.

I'd also say that Small lasers, pulse or otherwise, are unusable short ranged so I'm basing this off medium+

[John MatriX82]

Until PGI won't realize that either:
-the pulse lasers either need to see their damage upped (to justify the higher heat, weight and crippled range)
-the pulse lasers need to have their weight lowered. 0.75 tons for SPL, 1.5 ton per MPL, 6 tons per LPL (to encourage use on lights and at the same time allowing to save up some weight or add some critically needed extra cooling).

Until then, they are nearly useless and nowhere to be seen unless you're playing a close range pinpoint brawl build, that's however hard to use in PUG because you'd totally lack of any ranged reach.

[Alex Warden]

Sprouticus, on 21 November 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

I run the light killer @d2 with a 350, a ML and a LPL. The range is close between the two, and the LPL's shortened beam time is significant.

I would still like the heat on the LPL to come down half a point, but it is at least not horrible with the change a couple of months ago.

this. i often use LPLS in combination with med lasers for that extra punch. basically i can have an equivalent of 5 medlasers when i have only 4 energy slots (3ML+ 1LPL, example numbers) - sure, for the cost of extra space, heat and weight, but i found it to be worth it sometimes...especially since they boosted the damage a while back, which made them the strongest energy weapons anyway, when they hit the spot.

so i´d agree with the statement that LPLs are niche weapons, but not useless.

if anything, slightly reduced heat to bring them further away from ERPPC´s would be the only change that i´d say "okay, i´ll take it"... heat vs. range in that case

Edited by Alex Warden, 22 November 2013 - 04:51 AM.

[Mad Cow Jenkins]

If they made them like AC´s with triple range such that we had

	DAM	Optimal range	Max. range
MPL	7.5	120	360
LPL	13.25	200	600

which would give the same damage at their old range and increase it untill really really close. I think they would become good weapon of choice for brawling, and set their range accordingly.

Edited by Mad Cow Jenkins, 22 November 2013 - 05:20 AM.

[Macbrea]

I am all for altering pulse lasers to be 1 less heat then regular lasers and keeping the range the same it is now. It would be nice if they were the same size and weight or at least the same weight. This would give a players options.

Now, having said that, you're gaming machine and latency effect how effective you are with lasers and pulse lasers entirely. You have to look at your own stats to see which is more effective for you. As an example: I use pulse alot. So, my stats show their effectiveness.

Weapon	Fired	Hit	Accuracy	Damage	Dam/Hit	Dam/Shot
ER LARGE LASER	3,184	2,498	78.45%	12,921	5.17	4.06
ER PPC	1,599	841	52.60%	8,148	9.69	5.10
LARGE LASER	2,755	2,009	72.92%	9,912	4.93	3.60
LRG PULSE LASER	5,442	3,793	69.70%	23,477	6.19	4.31
MED PULSE LASER	4,371	2,641	60.42%	8,666	3.28	1.98
MEDIUM LASER	13,462	10,927	81.17%	28,380	2.60	2.11
PPC	299	120	40.13%	1,067	8.89	3.57
SMALL LASER	3,080	2,446	79.42%	3,917	1.60	1.27
SML PULSE LASER	12,284	8,684	70.69%	16,607	1.91	1.35