181 replies to this topic

[TercieI]

Victor Morson, on 23 November 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

There's a hundred ways to run a Shadow Hawk.

This alone is why they are now THE ideal starting mech IMO (awesomeness helps too )

Overall, I started with Commandos (in July). As I've gotten to better chassis, I've been continually annoyed that I didn't read something like this when I was new to the game.

New guys, read the advice out there (this, MavRCK's tier list, 80Bit's mech guide and Wadde's guide top my list) and don't think you're smarter than the vets. "Meta" is just a byproduct of what works. They're telling you what works.

[Mycrus]

[Victor Morson]

Viper2112, on 23 November 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

Thanks, this should help..Been playing this since the pen and paper version of the 1980's and then all the computer games since Crescent Hawks inception-

Awesome, another CSI Veteran! That was my first introduction to BattleTech; I didn't learn it was a P&P game until about a year after I first played it.

***** n stuff, on 23 November 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Hunchback 4G:
Start with this (3,694,490), swap the small laser for a CASE to get this this (3,794,490), then upgrade to double heatsinks and add a medium laser and 2 tons of ammo to get this (5,418,496) or go the extra mile and upgrade the engine, internals and armor to get this (7,667,826)

I think people keep recommending Hunchbacks to newbies because they had a Hunchback when they were new. The problem is unless they unrestrict the engine on the HB, it can't compare to a 'mech that's faster, stronger, heavier and loaded with more weapons and can jump.

It's a shame because the Hunchback is one of my favorite mediums in the BTU.

It's amusing how much art design and those hardpoint decisions have impacted the game. I usually groan if I get a Shadow Hawk rolled up in Megamek.

Edited by Victor Morson, 23 November 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Victor Morson, on 23 November 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Awesome, another CSI Veteran! That was my first introduction to BattleTech; I didn't learn it was a P&P game until about a year after I first played it.



I think people keep recommending Hunchbacks to newbies because they had a Hunchback when they were new. The problem is unless they unrestrict the engine on the HB, it can't compare to a 'mech that's faster, stronger, heavier and loaded with more weapons and can jump.

It's a shame because the Hunchback is one of my favorite mediums in the BTU.

It's amusing how much art design and those hardpoint decisions have impacted the game. I usually groan if I get a Shadow Hawk rolled up in Megamek.

Hunchbacks are decent mechs, they just don't work well with an XL engine, and that's exactly why it's a good starter, it makes it cheap to build and tough compared to most "optimal" mediums. Ideal for newbies.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 23 November 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[Mycrus]

Victor Morson, on 23 November 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

I think people keep recommending Hunchbacks to newbies because they had a Hunchback when they were new. The problem is unless they unrestrict the engine on the HB, it can't compare to a 'mech that's faster, stronger, heavier and loaded with more weapons and can jump.

hey vic, have you played the 275 engine hunchie lately with all the changes in chassis quirks or is this just all conjecture?

Edited by Mycrus, 23 November 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Mycrus, on 23 November 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

...275 engine hunchie ...

... will go to 98kph, speed tweaked. Pretty rapid.

Edited by Arnold J Rimmer, 23 November 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[Victor Morson]

***** n stuff, on 23 November 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Hunchbacks are decent mechs, they just don't work well with an XL engine, and that's exactly why it's a good starter, it makes it cheap to build and tough compared to most "optimal" mediums. Ideal for newbies.

Being less capable =/= a good starter.

You can put STD or XL in Shadow Hawks. Give them the option, rather than taking one away, because... reasons?

Mycrus, on 23 November 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

[/size]
hey vic, have you played the 275 engine hunchie lately with all the changes in chassis quirks or is this just all conjecture?

At present time the 4SP has an extremely minor, and arguable, niche in low tonnage drops. I can say without question that post-buff, which also impacted the other mediums, the Hunchback remains inferior to the Cent & Hawk.

Outside of a KTO-18 Light Hunter, I'd take it over a Kintaro at least.

Edited by Victor Morson, 23 November 2013 - 12:22 PM.

[MegaNickTv]

Thanks!

[LapsedPacifist79]

Victor Morson, on 23 November 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

HBKs are inferior in every way to Centurions and Shadow Hawks, however. I believe in recommending newbies to the best mainstream 'mechs first, and then allowing them to branch out once they've gotten a handle on the game.

The Hunchback is not worthy of that recommendation in it's current state.

I don't have any Shadow Hawks so I can't speak to their qualities, aside from saying the pilots seem overconfident. Pilot them like heavies.

The Cent is a great machine, but again, is overconfidence a good thing to have as a new player? The reason I mentioned HBKs is because they force you to think about what you are doing and protect yourself. To my mind a zombie mech won't do that. If you can still lash out after losing your limbs (Holy Grail anyone?) will that aid your playstyle?

Will it make a newb happier? Probably. But what's best for them? That was the question no?

[KursedVixen]

Personally i run a modified Jenner_D with 4x medium lasers and 1xLRm5 (soon to be two when I up the engine) with the rest of the tonnage spread around in the armor for max survivability (still can get killed easy in a mass of heavies though) But this allows me to strike at targets from a far while I take bases in conquest. If i don't run into anyone I can usually survive and give ample support to throw off those random targets with the LRms. My designes tend to run a little hot ,but with upgraded heat sinks it works very well.

Edited by KursedVixen, 23 November 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[Koniving]

Centurions are outdated by Shadowhawks. The only thing a Centurion can do that can't be done better by both the Shadowhawk and the Hunchback is use its arm to shoot a ballistic or for a single variant (the D) go faster.

To say the Centurion is better is like saying the Raven is better than the Jenner because the 3-L can do 2 things that the Jenner can't. That does not make them better.

The Hunchback can do at least 3 things better than a Centurion or a Shadowhawk. The Shadowhawk can do everything a Centurion can do and do it better.

Other than what a single variant of the Centurion can do, what can a Centurion do that a Hunchback cannot? They go the same speed. The Centurion uses gltiched hitboxes (getting fixed) to survive more abuse by reducing damage by 75% when hit from the left or right side. They can aim a ballistic by the arm.

That doesn't make them superior. Most people won't even run a cannon in a Centurion, it makes the Centurion too slow. They rely heavily on SRMs, a weapon that barely functions.

Hunchbacks aren't the most ideal mechs, but they can allow for any playstyle. A Centurion has a set 2 or 3 playstyles. The reason the Hunchback gets recommended more is that it can run with virtually any playstyle. Want to be a sniper? It can do that. Want to recon? It can do that. Want to hit hard? It can do that. Want to hit and run? It can do that. Want to protect something? It can do that.

[luxebo]

Koniving, on 23 November 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

Centurions are outdated by Shadowhawks. The only thing a Centurion can do that can't be done better by both the Shadowhawk and the Hunchback is use its arm to shoot a ballistic or for a single variant (the D) go faster.

To say the Centurion is better is like saying the Raven is better than the Jenner because the 3-L can do 2 things that the Jenner can't. That does not make them better.

The Hunchback can do at least 3 things better than a Centurion or a Shadowhawk. The Shadowhawk can do everything a Centurion can do and do it better.

Other than what a single variant of the Centurion can do, what can a Centurion do that a Hunchback cannot? They go the same speed. The Centurion uses gltiched hitboxes (getting fixed) to survive more abuse by reducing damage by 75% when hit from the left or right side. They can aim a ballistic by the arm.

That doesn't make them superior. Most people won't even run a cannon in a Centurion, it makes the Centurion too slow. They rely heavily on SRMs, a weapon that barely functions.

Hunchbacks aren't the most ideal mechs, but they can allow for any playstyle. A Centurion has a set 2 or 3 playstyles. The reason the Hunchback gets recommended more is that it can run with virtually any playstyle. Want to be a sniper? It can do that. Want to recon? It can do that. Want to hit hard? It can do that. Want to hit and run? It can do that. Want to protect something? It can do that.

And then cost comes into factor, and the Hunchie is the cheapest compared to the Cent and Shadow Hawk. Sadly the Cent is getting nerfed (depends on how drastic the hitbox change is though), so not too many more 5% survivals.

[Victor Morson]

luxebo, on 23 November 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

And then cost comes into factor, and the Hunchie is the cheapest compared to the Cent and Shadow Hawk. Sadly the Cent is getting nerfed (depends on how drastic the hitbox change is though), so not too many more 5% survivals.

They nerf is not likely to change much, just due to the layout. Part of the Cent's strength is in it's giant "Everything hits these arms!" arms, and running armless builds. That's why ballistic Centurions are awful. They aren't adjusting the arms to my knowledge, so they missed the point entirely.

[Victor Morson]

KursedVixen, on 23 November 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

and 1xLRm5 (soon to be two when I up the engine)

Put on Streaks or something instead. LRMs need a large number (Roughly 30) to do anything remotely useful against AMS, and they take way too much out of your 'mech. A lone LRM/5 is terrible and hurting a light build badly.

[luxebo]

Victor Morson, on 24 November 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

They nerf is not likely to change much, just due to the layout. Part of the Cent's strength is in it's giant "Everything hits these arms!" arms, and running armless builds. That's why ballistic Centurions are awful. They aren't adjusting the arms to my knowledge, so they missed the point entirely.

We'll see about this next patch in December.

Victor Morson, on 24 November 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

Put on Streaks or something instead. LRMs need a large number (Roughly 30) to do anything remotely useful against AMS, and they take way too much out of your 'mech. A lone LRM/5 is terrible and hurting a light build badly.

Lrms on a Jenner or Commando can do decent as a support mech/capper, but streaks or regular srms are better usually. I personally think maybe Jenner K should use Lrms (Lrm 10, Tag, some Med Lasers, XL 300, max armor), because of it's module bonus and disadvantage using srms, but Jenner D and F should both stay short range skirmishers.

[Victor Morson]

There is literally no point of having an LRM/10 by itself. Anyone with AMS will be all but immune to it entirely.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Victor Morson, on 24 November 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

There is literally no point of having an LRM/10 by itself. Anyone with AMS will be all but immune to it entirely.

You like your hyperbole, don't you? An LRM/10 will penetrate a single AMS. Two or more, no, but AMS is not a magical shield against anything larger than an LRM/5.

[Victor Morson]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 24 November 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

You like your hyperbole, don't you? An LRM/10 will penetrate a single AMS. Two or more, no, but AMS is not a magical shield against anything larger than an LRM/5.

The average amount of missiles that will make it through a single AMS in your path (not on the target) from an LRM/10 ranges between 1 and 0. This isn't hyperbole.

Remember, AMS in the flight path will shoot forwards, then backwards, giving them double-time-on-target on missiles. That means if a single AMS running light happens to be brawling anywhere near your target, you've just wasted a huge amount of light 'mech tonnage on a weapon that can't do anything.

Which means you've made other really, really bad trade-offs to your light, leaving you unable to damage protected heavy effectively OR able to deal with other lights effectively.

It's not hyperbole in the slightest. An LRM is a paper weight unless you have enough missiles to crack multiple AMS in my book.

[Bront]

Question.


How do you build a AC20 3xML Shadowhawk you mention in the OP?

[HlynkaCG]

Frankly I disagree with most of the OP's suggestions.

The key features of a Newbie 'mech is that it be easy to outfit/pilot and be forgiving of newbie mistakes.

The Highlander is an excellent 'mech but it does NOT meet the above criteria. Not by a long shot. Likewise for the Shadowhawk. The CTF-3D does but its high price means that a player is going to blow his entire cadet bonus to purchase it and then have to grind for a while if they want to customize it. Jenners suffer from the same problem once you factor in the need for DHS and an XL engine.

While mediums suffer at the competitive level I still recommend them for new players specifically because they are easy to outfit/pilot and allow new players to learn the ropes without being too-much of a burden to their team. Cents, HBK's, and Blackjacks are all reasonably viable "out of the box" and that is where I generally recommend that newbies start.