155 replies to this topic

[Training Instructor]

If there are ongoing occurrences of the same type of threads popping up over and over again, then it means there's a problem of some kind. It's up to the community manager to bring up these concerns to the developers, and it's up to the developers to determine if the complaints are valid. If the complaints/concerns aren't valid, the developer should then explain why, and then the community manager should give feedback to the players.

Some things just aren't possible to fix, or the developers are happy with the current state of it. If you have spread the word about the things you don't like, and it appears the developers aren't listening, it's because there's either not enough like-minded people promoting the same concerns, or your requests fall outside of the vision the devs have for the game.

Unfortunately, you'll have to accept that if some gameplay aspects are really annoying you, then you may need to find a different game to play. I'm not saying this rudely, I'm just saying that if the company isn't making the game you want to play, then maybe it's better to just give up and try to find a game that makes you happier, or take a long break from MWO and hope the devs see the light.]

p.s. I'm saying this as a guy who plans to take an extended break from the game once my phoenix package premium time runs out. Even while it's ticking down, it's still difficult to summon the motivation to log on most nights, or to stay on for more than 3-5 matches.

Edited by Training Instructor, 25 November 2013 - 02:01 AM.

[Diego Angelus]

DaZur, on 24 November 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

You do it through communication... Not whining, not demanding, not inciting derision.

You guys truly confound me.... You have this bizarre mental block where if PGI doesn't immediately implement your suggestion or acknowledge your premise with fireworks and fanfare, you think they are ignoring you.

Your suggestion is divisive...

If enough people abuse the meta to influence the metrics through weighted data, all your suggestion does is forward an agenda... It doesn't prove anything.

All we get is silence and that usually means bad thing and we will assume so until they decide to brake silence and share their view on this. It is communication but as I noticed even slight talk about something around here is received like whine or something. Thinking that they use this forum as only source of information is insane at best I really doubt they do that. All they need to watch for is those leagues and teams that are kick *** over there and ask them how to balance those guys have tons of good info that can help them.

[KharnZor]

Victor Morson, on 25 November 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

Yes, because clearly "honor" demands you to run inferior weapons in an online team sim-shooter. If you were to do less, you would be a disgrace... ?

I refuse to be bowed by any meta, been there and done that. I didn't enjoy it one bit.
I play the game my way with mech's i choose to field and with weapons I choose to use. I'm generally a fair and well mannered player Morson so i'd appreciate if you adjusted the snarky undertone. Its not needed.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 23 November 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Hello, forumwarriors. This is a public service announcement brought to you all by your favorite fuddy duddy.

What I'm going to be talking to ya'll about today is the topic of getting stuff actually fixed. Forums of every game in the history of ever are jam-packed with discussions about what is overpowered and what is underpowered. Such threads are (usually) perfectly valid to create, but what we must understand is that such threads don't usually have any noticeable impact whatsoever. Sometimes this is for the better, because threads can sometimes suggest hopelessly stupid ideas. At other times, this can be for the worse.

Whatever the implications are, your balance threads are rarely, if ever, going to see the light of day. There is a much more practical way to convince the developers to make whatever change you're looking for, and this requires taking matters into your own hands. What I'm suggesting for you to do is to go out and "prove" that weapon-x is overpowered, or that variant-y is underpowered. Note that this thread does not care about what specific things are OP/UP, I am simply laying out the framework for the way to get things changed.



If something is overpowered, the best way to get it nerfed is to abuse the living daylights out of it. If you think autocannons are too good, start using autocannons. Doing so will provide additional statistics for PGI to make their decisions based off of. If they see a disproportionally large part of the playerbase using a very narrow set of tactics and equipment, they might get the impression that there is a reason for such behavior. Being a hipster with your LPL + SRM2 + LBX + Flamer + LRM10 frankenmech isn't going to affect change, and will in fact slow down or inhibit change.

Conversely, if you believe that something is underpowered, STOP USING THAT ITEM and refuse to touch it with a 31.5 foot pole. If you think that the Raven 4X and 2X variants are bad, don't use them. Using them would cause PGI to see that people are getting decent performance out of them, and thus they would get the impression that those variants don't need any help. If you think that the LPL is bad, don't use LPLs. Being a hipster with your LPL Stalker is going to give PGI statistics that people use the weapon and do okay with them, and thus LPLs will never get buffed.


Going "against the meta" directly increases the duration of that "meta" because it can give statistics-gatherers the impression that things are hunky-dorey. It is a sad fact, but it is true. Trying to be a unique little snowflake is going to make the developers conclude that the meta isn't really the meta after all. If you want OP things fixed, relentlessly abuse those things. If you want UP things fixed, avoid those things like the plague, and maybe even sell them off from your mechbay. Take matters into your own hands, and give the people in power the statistics they need to make a decision on the issue.

This could work, so long as the DVEs do not think and act like forward thinking individuals. Outside of LRM boating (which making an Archer out of an Atlas is not boating in my eyes) I have played the game without caving to the 'Meta of the day' and I have a winning record doing so(both as a PUG and a Lawman. So in my personal studies on game performance I have yet to see a problem with the game's balance. There will always be a pinnacle build, no matter how hard the DEVs try. We as players just need to accept this truth, so play the game, accept your losses with your wins. Like it, Love it, or leave.

[0rca]

FupDup, on 24 November 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

The bottom line is, just nudging their elbow and saying "Eh? Eh? Eeeehhh? Ever thought of this? Wanna do that? How about this-that?" is not guaranteed to have a tangible impact.

It looks like the effect is quite the opposite. Every time I see good idea, polished by 50-100 pages of discussion (over several weeks) It actually hurts, cause now I know for sure - it won't be implemented (then BAAAM ghost heat lol). I don't know what drives devs away from ideas and suggestions, some kind of "pride", ghost of copyright inf. or some other {Scrap}...

It's kinda fun we have "Suggestions" forum, is there any statistics on how much of those suggested stuff got implemented? None? Then what this forum for? To keep people busy there?

[FupDup]

0rca, on 25 November 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

It looks like the effect is quite the opposite. Every time I see good idea, polished by 50-100 pages of discussion (over several weeks) It actually hurts, cause now I know for sure - it won't be implemented (then BAAAM ghost heat lol). I don't know what drives devs away from ideas and suggestions, some kind of "pride", ghost of copyright inf. or some other {Scrap}...

It's kinda fun we have "Suggestions" forum, is there any statistics on how much of those suggested stuff got implemented? None? Then what this forum for? To keep people busy there?

To be fair, there are a select few ideas that got noticed, such as Thomas D. seeing an idea to add an effect that causes jumpjetting mechs to shake when shot at, with mechs of higher tonnage being affected a lot less (because clearly higher tonnage mechs aren't desirable enough yet, amirite? Gotta sell them top-tier avatars); and supposedly things like the ERLL heat decrease and Hunchback (or was it Centurion?) engine limit increase were also based off of the forums.

It seems like the few things that do get noticed are the random things that aren't really that pertinent to the game's future (i.e. the first example of penalizing people for using jumpjets in a brawl as a medium or light mech, but letting the fatties get it easier).

Edited by FupDup, 25 November 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[Blurry]

You are right.
I hate the grind in this game and how unrewarding your time spent in it is.
So I stopped playing.
Hopefully they will get the message.

Even with premium time the game has fundemental flaws that need to be sorted out. The best way would be to stop playing altogether and hope they decide to communicate what is going on.

[DaZur]

Really?... I can't believe there are still people in this community who cannot rationalize why PGI does not communicate with us like they used to.

If I had access to the old CB forums, I could point to the exact day and time the this community destroyed the dev / community relationship...

In short, it began with a crass and tasteless cartoon of a dev being assaulted and the lynch mob mentality that followed... and expressly extending through the fervent arrogance by the community intelligentsia and their constant assault on PGIs employees intelligence, character and personal attacks leveled against specific individual devs.

I'm not about to sit here and wax poetically about how wonderful PGI is or attempt to deny that PGI has done themselves no favors with their decision making processes, not to mention the palpable perception they foster with their silence.

There is an awful lot of extremely rational input, logical suggestion and hindsight shared in this community... That sadly get lost in the vitriol and hurbis.

Take a look around... It's fairly easy to see why PGI doesn't play in their own back-yard... I have not seen one instance in a long, long time where a PGI representative has offered commentary on any given subject and that commentary not immediately be set upon by dozens of posts that waste no opportunity take unrestrained whacks at them and or PGI... Every comment highly scrutinized, every attempt to provide context ridiculed and every effort to rebuild the community relationships scoffed and diminished.

Expectations of PGI devs to lean into the harsh criticism and personal attacks and not be affected on a personal level is myopic and disingenuous at best.

Sadly, the inability of people to appreciate the power of civility is lost on the internet as is the ability to understand the repercussions born from ignoring it...

Edited by DaZur, 25 November 2013 - 08:12 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

PGI found out early that its best to build a wall around yourself when your incompetent. In that regard they have done and exceptional job. With the forum structure and cadre of hall monitors and and shut down artists nothing can get through to them.

Only their wallets remain. I say play the game and use server time but contribute nothing in purchases. At some point then they will either fold their tents or put senior managements head on a pike and get with the program of building a game professionally.

I am more than amazed they have made it this far but that is the way of the wall. It exists until the food and water runs out then come the collapse and rebuilding if any is to be had. Lot of ruins around the planet that were abandoned for good. Cross your fingers there.

[Joseph Mallan]

In 11 years of forum surfing I have only seen one community hat was ever nice to its DEV.. That would be the HeavyMalaPro forum. I am sure here are others out there, but I have not been to them to witness. We have ourselves to blame if we are not getting open communication with the guys and gals making this game. Taking matters into your own hands would imply to me rewriting code and creating models for new Mechs. Something I don't PGI taking o kindly to...

[Artgathan]

Sandpit, on 24 November 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

They have the power and ability to silence anyone they want, so they don't have to allow that type of behavior.

While they may have the power, they don't actually have the ability to exercise that power. Exercising that particular ability (using moderation tools to silence people behaving poorly) could easily cause the forums to become a police state. Players would stop posting on the forums (for fear of being struck down by the mighty banhammer) and then the devs would lose all communication with the player base.

I'm not suggesting that there is no way to wield moderation powers well. I simply want to suggest that doing so is difficult and the moderation staff has proven in the past that they are sometimes quick to jump the gun. It only takes one mistake to incite a riot (as seen in one of the MWO Townhall Discussion threads). Players must police themselves first, with the moderators only intervening if things get out of hand.

On topic, I agree with the OP's suggestion. While it has the potential to poison the data (as some have pointed out), it can help to alleviate balance issues. If no one tries to point people in a particular direction, but instead simply encourages people to play whatever builds they feel are the most OP, certain trends will surface. Either:
1. Certain builds will appear more frequently, suggesting that many people feel those builds are OP
2. No builds will "dominate", and a great diversity of builds will appear (suggesting that things are perhaps more balanced because no one appears to agree that any one build is superior to the others).

[Mudhutwarrior]

Artgathan, on 25 November 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

While they may have the power, they don't actually have the ability to exercise that power. Exercising that particular ability (using moderation tools to silence people behaving poorly) could easily cause the forums to become a police state. Players would stop posting on the forums (for fear of being struck down by the mighty banhammer) and then the devs would lose all communication with the player base.

I'm not suggesting that there is no way to wield moderation powers well. I simply want to suggest that doing so is difficult and the moderation staff has proven in the past that they are sometimes quick to jump the gun. It only takes one mistake to incite a riot (as seen in one of the MWO Townhall Discussion threads). Players must police themselves first, with the moderators only intervening if things get out of hand.

They learned what the banhammer would cost them. Now its up to moving threads after the dogs are through with them.

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 November 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

In 11 years of forum surfing I have only seen one community hat was ever nice to its DEV.. T

Honestly... I don't expect everyone to simply accept PGIs decisions like minon sheep... That's not how the world works. PGI should expect serious criticism and critique. Metrics only show so much and quite honestly the human quotient is more valuable than the empirical data...

​It's a companies job to listen to their customers... good or bad.

That said, no one should have to burden the assaults leveled against them that PGI has...

I'm an operations manager... One of my primary job responsibilities is to arbitrate between customers and my employees when there are problems. My golden rule is, as a customer you can yell, scream and voice your displeasure all you want... but when you cross the line of civility and start launching personal attacks at myself or my employees... even if you are in the right, our discussion is done.

Edited by DaZur, 25 November 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 25 November 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

They learned what the banhammer would cost them. Now its up to moving threads after the dogs are through with them.

Banning forum trouble makers would not hurt a community in the least Mud!

[Sandpit]

Artgathan, on 25 November 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

While they may have the power, they don't actually have the ability to exercise that power. Exercising that particular ability (using moderation tools to silence people behaving poorly) could easily cause the forums to become a police state. Players would stop posting on the forums (for fear of being struck down by the mighty banhammer) and then the devs would lose all communication with the player base.

It's an internet forum for a video game. There's no free speech, nor is there the ability to have any kind of "police state" There is a CoC that every single player here agrees to in order to have the privilege (note that does not mean RIGHT) to post here.

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 25 November 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Honestly... I don't expect everyone to simply accept PGIs decisions like minon sheep... That's not how the world works. PGI should expect serious criticism and critique. Metrics only show so much and quite honestly the human quotient is more valuable than the empirical data...

​It's a companies job to listen to their customers... good or bad.

That said, no one should have to burden the assaults leveled against them that PGI has...

I'm an operations manager... One of my primary job responsibilities is to arbitrate between customers and my employees when there are problems. My golden rule is, as a customer you can yell, scream and voice your displeasure all you want... but when you cross the line of civility and start launching personal attacks at myself or my employees... even if you are in the right, our discussion is done.

I have been on the inside of a game testing group before. I don't blame DEVs for clamming up when the community is volatile. As I have seen several time, a DEV team will be all forth coming an he forum bullies them into silenceby being all chest pounding and poop flinging. The highlighted is exactly what we have here.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 November 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Banning forum trouble makers would not hurt a community in the least Mud!

Define trouble makers. Most often when that term is applied some group or individual is silenced to benefit a few.

I think its pretty basic in that common rules of civility apply. Past that freedom of speech should be honored.

[Artgathan]

Sandpit, on 25 November 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

It's an internet forum for a video game. There's no free speech, nor is there the ability to have any kind of "police state" There is a CoC that every single player here agrees to in order to have the privilege (note that does not mean RIGHT) to post here.

I didn't mean to suggest that we are guaranteed "free speech" on these forums (though I would contest that moderators could create a pseudo-"Police State" by destroying any opinion they didn't like and thereby controlling the information that appears on these boards). I find it appalling that we have to sign a CoC (in the sense that I find it sad that there exist people who must be policed in order to behave in a civil manner). I agree that posting here is a privileged and not a right. What I was trying to get at in my post is that exercising moderation powers is a difficult job rife with potential pitfalls. I didn't mean to suggest that moderation powers should never be exercised - by all means, throw the book at individuals who are disrespectful or violate the CoC. However there is a degree of finesse required for the job.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Sandpit, on 25 November 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

It's an internet forum for a video game. There's no free speech, nor is there the ability to have any kind of "police state" There is a CoC that every single player here agrees to in order to have the privilege (note that does not mean RIGHT) to post here.

Agreed but then comes a price. Silence free thought to protect and agenda and a price is paid. Saw it today in the news that TV both broadcast and cable is suffering dramatic losses past years. Not for lack of programming but because people are getting tired of the agenda driven programming. You see it in chat that people have no interest in coming here. They know what they will face and that it will come to no end for the effort. In a commercial sense its a one way street into the abyss.

[PappySmurf]

Is this the IDK thread? Because so many have left the game and the total MWO populace is like 5000 or less active players and every day more quit because of NO!! META and promises if we pay more they will get UI 2.0 and CW done? Retro-->>>