26 replies to this topic

[ScoutMaster]

When you compare the damage to heat+tonnage+slot+range ratio, medium lasers make large lasers look like a fat unloved woman. Sure, sometimes you feel compelled to get the fat one because it's all that seems appropriate and optimal.

But the truth is; why would you use 5x the tonnage for a weapon that hardly does double the damage, takes twice the space and has significantly more heat build up.

The extra tonnage can be used for a faster engine, which makes it easier to get closer to the enemy and avoid fire. Which renders the whole concept of having longer range utterly pointless.

Drop your large lasers, put on some medium lasers instead, change your ac to something bigger, use that missile hardpoint and realise that medium lasers are a better bargain by a longshot. Not to mention how dealing with medium lasers allows you to put DHS in more places due to the fact that legs cannot hold DHS.

I understand medium lasers should be the most cost effective. But the bigger one should offer a certain perk; like cooking a killer lasagna or pizza.

Bottom line is that anything but medium lasers is not worth it in a beam hardpoint. Unless you only use 1 beam hardpoint and that you don't have to worry about heat whatsoever.

[Escef]

I'll do my best to remember how great medium lasers are when I'm slapping people at 700+ meters with (ER) larges.

[Turist0AT]

ML are brawler weapon, anyone who need to keep distance(like a frigile jester) needs the large ones(5 of them). So that we can stay out of range for ML.

Shame on you OP for not knowing this.

Sh't, did i just feed a troll?

Edited by Turist0AT, 25 November 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[MerryIguana]

I like the way you troll. +1

[ScoutMaster]

Escef, on 25 November 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

I'll do my best to remember how great medium lasers are when I'm slapping people at 700+ meters with (ER) larges.

I don't remember mentionning ER large lasers.

[FupDup]

Fun fact: the SL, MPL, and ML (I think Flamers too?) have a completely hidden mechanic that causes them to pause your heat dissipation while you are firing them. This is why running even just a few ML can totally cook you in mere moments.

But seriously, try it yourself. Grab any mech with a lot of energy hardpoints (6+), and load it up with an ERPPC and 5+ SL/ML, and then go to the Testing Grounds. Also, be sure to pack a lot of DHS (to help prove the point). Then, fire the lone ERPPC until you get to a relatively high heat level. At this point, stop firing the ERPPC and start to chain-fire the Small Lasers. If you click the fire button right before one laser beam finishes, you can get the next laser to fire without waiting 0.5 seconds between each laser (this is to make sure your heat doesn't dissipate during the 0.5 second gap). You will notice that firing those Small Lasers will prevent your mech from dissipating heat, even if you have 20 DHS (I tried using 2 SL as backup weapons on a 4 PPC Stalker once).

LL, LPL, and SPL do not pause your heat dissipation while they are in use, which makes them better for endurance if you are riding the heat scale. ML are of course still an extremely effective and powerful weapon in many situations, and you should keep using ML, but they also are not very good to use if you are currently high up on the heat scale and need to cool off quickly.

EDIT: It turns out that I was mistaken about the hidden mechanic regarding SL, ML, and MPL. Scroll down the page to see the true phenomenon.

Edited by FupDup, 25 November 2013 - 07:14 PM.

[Fuggles]

Medium laser warrior online!

Clearly the most OP weapon in the game, everyone uses them!

[LowSubmarino]

Escef, on 25 November 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

I'll do my best to remember how great medium lasers are when I'm slapping people at 700+ meters with (ER) larges.

Haha exactly. Before the shadowhawk my stalker 3f with 4 er lls was what i played most of the time.

You cant only judge a weapon by its tonnage or heat efficiency. If you are a good sniper and know the maps then anything with mostly medium lasers cannot hope to even reach you before dying or taking heavy heavy dmg.

The er ll is an awesome weapon and one of the - if not the - best sniper weapon.

[MeiSooHaityu]

MLasers are kind of like jack-of-all-trades and master of none.

Good but not great...
Range
Heat
Damage
Tonnage requirements
Crit Space

Still, LLasers (and ER) are great for range and max damage done at range. MLasers damage drops off after 270m, but LLasers don't start dropping off till 540m (maybe 570m) and ERs are even farther. If you have the tonnage and cooling capability, LLasers are a good goto.

I can't say anything similar for SLasers though. I suppose if you are a real close in fighter (or hit-and-fade) and do not have the tonnage, SLasers might be ok, but with their lack of range (180m optimal) and still 1 crit space req, I find a hard time coming up with a use for those.

[Jack Avery]

MeiSooHaityu, on 25 November 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

Still, LLasers (and ER) are great for range and max damage done at range. MLasers damage drops off after 270m, but LLasers don't start dropping off till 540m (maybe 570m) and ERs are even farther. If you have the tonnage and cooling capability, LLasers are a good goto.

It's actually only 450m for standard LLs. Their range really isn't all that good. ERs are 675m.

[Sandpit]

ScoutMaster, on 25 November 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

I don't remember mentionning ER large lasers.

maybe you should reread your thread title?

Jack Avery, on 25 November 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

It's actually only 450m for standard LLs. Their range really isn't all that good. ERs are 675m.

That's their optimal range. They'll do damage outwards of 800 meters for standard LLs

[Scorpion15]

I have noticed the non dissipation of heat with MLas in use with my BLR-1G. I have noticed that I generally use my mediums at high heat to prevent the overheat, but I have also noticed that when I fire my 2 ER larges, my heat increases slower than when I fire my 2 mediums. This being due to my sinks dissipating while my ERs are firing and not while the mediums are firing. Although the mediums still generate half the heat it just generates it faster in my case.

[Funkin Disher]

Some lasers stop heat dissipation and others don't?

That explains so much...
Is that a known bug, or is that working is intended ™?

[NRP]

Interesting. I didn't know that either.

[Sandpit]

It doesn't stop dissipation. I think what he's trying to say is that due to the length of time? of the beam duration for an LL as opposed to an ML you'll actually dissipate heat before the end of the beam duration for an LL? I dunno, I'm confused on this one lol

[FupDup]

Kane0, on 25 November 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

Some lasers stop heat dissipation and others don't?

That explains so much...
Is that a known bug, or is that working is intended ™?

Sandpit, on 25 November 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

It doesn't stop dissipation. I think what he's trying to say is that due to the length of time? of the beam duration for an LL as opposed to an ML you'll actually dissipate heat before the end of the beam duration for an LL? I dunno, I'm confused on this one lol

No, I mean that it does actually temporarily stop your dissipation during the duration, or something along those lines that causes them to be artificially hotter than they would seem. And it's not a bug, it's an intended feature. Let's just say that a little birdie told me... (not referring to Lowtax). I'll ask my birdie for some more specific details to help clarify.

EDIT: It turns out that I was mistaken about the hidden mechanic regarding SL, ML, and MPL. Scroll down the page to see the true phenomenon.

Edited by FupDup, 25 November 2013 - 07:14 PM.

[Sandpit]

FupDup, on 25 November 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

No, I mean that it does actually temporarily stop your dissipation during the duration, or something along those lines that causes them to be artificially hotter than they would seem. And it's not a bug, it's an intended feature. Let's just say that a little birdie told me... (not referring to Lowtax). I'll ask my birdie for some more specific details to help clarify.

Perhaps it doesn't dissipate until the end of the duration of weapon fire regardless of weapon type? That would make it more noticeable for beam weapon due to their duration being so long?

[FupDup]

Sandpit, on 25 November 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Perhaps it doesn't dissipate until the end of the duration of weapon fire regardless of weapon type? That would make it more noticeable for beam weapon due to their duration being so long?

The birdie specified that it's SL, ML, and MPL (and Flamers if memory serves). As a side-note, he said he prefers SPL over ML because they lack this mechanic, so I'd assume that only the specified weapons are afflicted.


EDIT: I got the clarification from the birdie. My presumption about heat dissipation pausing was actually incorrect. The actual phenomenon happening behind the scenes is that the heat per shot on certain weapons will increase if you don't stop firing that weapon. A specific example he gave me is that a Medium Laser can do up to 5 heat per shot if fired enough times in a row.

The MWO Illuminati said:

No problem.

It's not so much that they pause. That's not heat retention.

Lasers build up heat over time (it's not 4 heat for a medium laser all at once, it's 4 heat over 1 second). That's the "pause." The pause (it's actually just the total heat climbing slowly as you cool) is for all non-instant heat weapons (lasers, flamers, single tube missile launchers).

Heat retention is where if you do not stop firing the weapon it will generate more heat each time it cycles. (Kind of like ghost heat, but before ghost heat and it goes by "said person hasn't stopped using this weapon.")

Say if a laser fires for 1 second, then cycles for 3 seconds (4 seconds total), on the next time if you did not let go of the trigger it will generate slightly more heat. It's hard to see on double heatsinks (the heat per medium laser stops increasing at 5 heat), but single heatsinks with 10 SHS it should be impossible to overheat with a single medium laser. (4 heat generated over 1 second, with 1 cooling as it's building up [3 heat at the end of the beam] and 3 seconds of cooling = 4 heat - 4 cooling = 0). But you can with just one ML as each time it fires (so long as you hold the mouse button or fire before half a second after the full 4 seconds) as eventually it reaches 5 heat per medium laser. You can overheat with 14 SHS on a skill-less mech, too, due to heat retention.

27 DHS it should be theoretically impossible to overheat with any single weapon, right? The heat retention for flamers has no limit. Eventually despite the incredibly high threshold and "1 heat per second", you'll see a flamer climb as high as 20% heat in a single second. That's with over 5 cooling per second resisting the heat climb.

What's made flamers remotely useful recently is that "heat retention" has been applied to its offensive ability too, which both raises the heat generated by their weapons, as well as cause their heat to rise. I was told it "takes time" to have effect, and so over time the flamers can overpower their heatsinks. Ironically around the same time when the heat skyrockets for yourself. The first public mention of Heat Retention is on the patch notes and weapon balancing information involving the flamer changes. It reads (paraphrased) "The heat produced on the target will increase exponentially due to heat retention."

Edited by FupDup, 25 November 2013 - 07:38 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

In truth I have found it really depends on your ability to manage your heat. For example, if I am running a light mech with loads of energy hard points (Jenner F with 6 energy points or Locus with 5 energy points) I usually either load up on medium lasers or small laser. Small lasers for no heat issue (which lately I find myself at Terra Bad so I usually am a small laser boat) or if I feel lik managing heat I go medium lasers (usually have to get a few cool shots though, which then takes away from arty, uav, and/or cap excel).

Now when it comes to bigger mechs like a heavy mech I have seen loads of people carry 2 ER Large or 2 Large Lasers effectively ... why? We for range. I have seen 2 Large and Gauss (Dragon Champion), or even my own builds of a Thunderbolt with 2 Large Lasers and 2 SRM 6s. This is to help like I said add range.

If anything maybe a small scale back on Large lasers heat penalty because it does seem a little much, but then be ready for 4 to now 6 ER Large Laser Stalkers or Awesomes.

[GalaxyBluestar]

FupDup, on 25 November 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

Fun fact: the SL, MPL, and ML (I think Flamers too?) have a completely hidden mechanic that causes them to pause your heat dissipation while you are firing them. This is why running even just a few ML can totally cook you in mere moments.

But seriously, try it yourself. Grab any mech with a lot of energy hardpoints (6+), and load it up with an ERPPC and 5+ SL/ML, and then go to the Testing Grounds. Also, be sure to pack a lot of DHS (to help prove the point). Then, fire the lone ERPPC until you get to a relatively high heat level. At this point, stop firing the ERPPC and start to chain-fire the Small Lasers. If you click the fire button right before one laser beam finishes, you can get the next laser to fire without waiting 0.5 seconds between each laser (this is to make sure your heat doesn't dissipate during the 0.5 second gap). You will notice that firing those Small Lasers will prevent your mech from dissipating heat, even if you have 20 DHS (I tried using 2 SL as backup weapons on a 4 PPC Stalker once).

LL, LPL, and SPL do not pause your heat dissipation while they are in use, which makes them better for endurance if you are riding the heat scale. ML are of course still an extremely effective and powerful weapon in many situations, and you should keep using ML, but they also are not very good to use if you are currently high up on the heat scale and need to cool off quickly.

so the sml mpl and ml have dissipation delay... behind the scenes efforts to deter 3 second jenner? /tinfoilhat

clownwarlord, on 25 November 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

to now 6 ER Large Laser Stalkers or Awesomes.

the heat for those mechs before was terrible, maybe 6ll stalkers {forget awesome} at best because it can fit enough DHS to make it minimally bearable. some people had success with it though.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 25 November 2013 - 07:10 PM.