376 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Fooooo, on 27 November 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

Yup, if the game was balanced / had proper role warfare, then these problems of people always taking assaults/heavies would not be happening in pub matches or 12man games.

If we had proper role warfare, tonnage limits would be a non-issue; people would gladly play with sub-60 ton 'mechs anyway.

As long as we lack role warfare, sub-60 ton 'mechs will always be a sub-optimal choice for what to drop in (from the individual's point of view), and the only thing tonnage limits will accomplish is a new form of frustration for those who want to play their heavier 'mechs but can't.

[ReguIus]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 November 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

So... Everyone has to play like they are Clanners?

Whatcha bringing?

Ok We'll bring this.

Can we bring this?

Sure if we can have this?

Lame

Well, isn't this quite what was going on in the IS just before the clans? I'm by NO means a lore expert, but as far as I'm concerned warfare was carried out in rather gentlemanly manner due to the poor state of infrastructure and technology. The need to preserve whatever was left was great. I also read somewhere that most battles would be deliberately be fought somewhere far away from anything important to minimize collateral damage. Dunnolol, but I don't think it's going to be a problem as long as Steiners don't want the limit to be at 1200 tons.

[Chemie]

anubis969, on 26 November 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

To add to what Trauglodyte said; This is an excerpt from AtD45 where they described how tonnage limits will work:

Works for pug queue but not 12-man...unless there is a set 12 man limit (which also sucks)

[o0Marduk0o]

stjobe, on 26 November 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Everyone that sees tonnage limits as some kind of salvation for MWO seem to think it's not them who will be forced to drop in the Locust so that their team mates can have fun in their heavies and assaults.

How about not dropping with assault-only lances? If players tend to choose bigger=better, they need a restriction.
Tonnage limits make teams think about what they bring to battle.
You only have to drop with Lolcusts when you want to bring as much assaults as possible but this won't be a good choice anyway.

Edited by o0Marduk0o, 27 November 2013 - 04:56 AM.

[ssm]

stjobe, on 27 November 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

If we had proper role warfare, tonnage limits would be a non-issue; people would gladly play with sub-60 ton 'mechs anyway.

As long as we lack role warfare, sub-60 ton 'mechs will always be a sub-optimal choice for what to drop in (from the individual's point of view), and the only thing tonnage limits will accomplish is a new form of frustration for those who want to play their heavier 'mechs but can't.

"Proper role warfare" probably wouldn't help a lot. What would be role for mediums in this magic "proper role warfare" that wouldn't involve destroying other mechs?

(in which they would still be sub-optimal compared to heavies/assaults and even lights)

Edited by ssm, 27 November 2013 - 05:08 AM.

[o0Marduk0o]

It would be much better playable for medium mechs, when there are less heavy and assault mechs on the battlefield.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kurbutti, on 27 November 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

Well, isn't this quite what was going on in the IS just before the clans? I'm by NO means a lore expert, but as far as I'm concerned warfare was carried out in rather gentlemanly manner due to the poor state of infrastructure and technology. The need to preserve whatever was left was great. I also read somewhere that most battles would be deliberately be fought somewhere far away from anything important to minimize collateral damage. Dunnolol, but I don't think it's going to be a problem as long as Steiners don't want the limit to be at 1200 tons.

House Davion Combat Axiom, To ensure victory We MUST have 3 times the the known enemy TO&E. Does this sound like a gentlemanly manner.

House Davion moved its top line forces to the Liao front for "War Games" Which turned out to be a cover for an all out assault. The Dragoons declared war on the Dragon and threw everything they had at the Draconis Combine and Warlord Samsonov. Tonnage matching might be fine for Tournament players. But I want my enemy TO&E to be a mystery and that includes his mass. I wanna play the Scenarios of the Clan invasion as they are meant to be, not some Pee Wee League T-ball game. I became a Lyran, with the understanding, that I was going to get my head ripped off by the Clans for the first 2 years of play. I signed up for that!

[Tolkien]

o0Marduk0o, on 27 November 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

It would be much better playable for medium mechs, when there are less heavy and assault mechs on the battlefield.

The way the game works just leaves mediums generally by the wayside. These days dropping into 12 mans our leader is usually calling for Multiple assualts and a heavy or two, then 2-3 lights. Mediums do not have the speed or small size to do the information gathering jobs that lights are essential for, while they also don't have the firepower or the toughness of the bigger mechs. Mix in their generally bulky (relative to tonnage) silhouettes and it's a recipe for a quick and pointless existence.

[ssm]

o0Marduk0o, on 27 November 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

It would be much better playable for medium mechs, when there are less heavy and assault mechs on the battlefield.

Agreed. But it can be done only by externally restricting (by weight, BV, whatever) number of heavier mechs in each drop. "Proper role warfare" won't do this, because mediums are (spreadsheet-wise) worse at destroying mechs than heavies/assault, and worse at any other role (not involving destroying mechs) than lights.

Making mediums viable by "proper role warfare" is impossible, because role warfare like this just don't exist.

Edited by ssm, 27 November 2013 - 05:16 AM.

[o0Marduk0o]

Tolkien, on 27 November 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

The way the game works just leaves mediums generally by the wayside. These days dropping into 12 mans our leader is usually calling for Multiple assualts and a heavy or two, then 2-3 lights. Mediums do not have the speed or small size to do the information gathering jobs that lights are essential for, while they also don't have the firepower or the toughness of the bigger mechs. Mix in their generally bulky (relative to tonnage) silhouettes and it's a recipe for a quick and pointless existence.

Yes because atm you can choose what you want and therefore you take the more effective mech (= no medium). When both teams are forced to take less heavy mechs to match the tonnage rating, it would be more even.

No restriction at all always leads to bigger=better. Who cares about role warfare if you only need to destroy the enemy. First they have to fix the weight class balance, then they can add additional tasks for each class.

[Khobai]

tonnage limits are a very poor way to balance teams. All it will accomplish is making most of the mechs in the game obsolete. Because people will only play the mechs that give the most bang for the tonnage. any mech that isnt top tier for its tonnage will go completely unused.

[KinLuu]

o0Marduk0o, on 27 November 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

Yes because atm you can choose what you want and therefore you take the more effective mech (= no medium). When both teams are forced to take less heavy mechs to match the tonnage rating, it would be more even.

No restriction at all always leads to bigger=better. Who cares about role warfare if you only need to destroy the enemy. First they have to fix the weight class balance, then they can add additional tasks for each class.

But even with tonnage limits, there is no point in taking mediums.

[o0Marduk0o]

Khobai, on 27 November 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

tonnage limits are a very poor way to balance teams. All it will accomplish is making most of the mechs in the game obsolete. Because people will only play the mechs that give the most bang for the tonnage. any mech that isnt top tier for its tonnage will go completely unused.

Is there any difference to the current situation?
But we will see more mechs with different tonnage in a match - or 6 lolcust and 6 atlas.

[CravenMadness]

Uhhh... My clan already runs 12 mans with specific weight limits in mind ... some of the more popular is 550 for us... Sometimes we go as high as eight hundred. We manage to get assaults even in the lowest tonnage if we think the synergy is worth it with the theme of the drop. When you have pilots who are more interested in making a team mesh than running a particular favorite mech, it doesn't matter if your team has pilots who prefer specific chassis because there's bound to be someone who can round out the necessary weight shifts.

Also, don't think it's going to exactly stop you from dropping what weight class you want in drops, it just means that you -may- have to wait a few more seconds to get put into a proper weighted drop. No skin off my nose.

[o0Marduk0o]

KinLuu, on 27 November 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

But even with tonnage limits, there is no point in taking mediums.

You beat light mechs with mediums and light mechs are the only way to bring as much assaults as possible.

[ssm]

o0Marduk0o, on 27 November 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

Is there any difference to the current situation?
But we will see more mechs with different tonnage in a match - or 6 lolcust and 6 atlas.

120 tons? Let's say a Jagermech and Shadow Hawk.

No to mention limit will probably be set lower than 720 tons (6xAtlas, 6x Locust)

Edited by ssm, 27 November 2013 - 05:56 AM.

[Modo44]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 November 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

House Davion moved its top line forces to the Liao front for "War Games" Which turned out to be a cover for an all out assault. The Dragoons declared war on the Dragon and threw everything they had at the Draconis Combine and Warlord Samsonov. Tonnage matching might be fine for Tournament players. But I want my enemy TO&E to be a mystery and that includes his mass. I wanna play the Scenarios of the Clan invasion as they are meant to be, not some Pee Wee League T-ball game. I became a Lyran, with the understanding, that I was going to get my head ripped off by the Clans for the first 2 years of play. I signed up for that!

Go get funding for an SP campaign, then. This is a multiplayer game, and outside of private play, every single match is considered competitive.

[KinLuu]

o0Marduk0o, on 27 November 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

You beat light mechs with mediums and light mechs are the only way to bring as much assaults as possible.

The mediums that beat lights, are horrible against heavier opposition. And they won't ever catch the lights alone (unless the lights are bad).

[o0Marduk0o]

ssm, on 27 November 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

120 tons? Let's say a Jagermech and Shadow Hawk.

No to mention limit will probably be set lower than 720 tons (6xAtlas, 6x Locust)

I hope the limit will be lower.

But I have no clue what you mean with the first sentence.

KinLuu, on 27 November 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

The mediums that beat lights, are horrible against heavier opposition. And they won't ever catch the lights alone (unless the lights are bad).

Mediums are fast enough to turn and hit light mechs and have more armor and more weapons. And ofc they shouldn't follow the light to the enemy team. Furthermore you have heavier mechs in your team as well.

Edited by o0Marduk0o, 27 November 2013 - 06:04 AM.

[Orbit Rain]

Tolkien, on 27 November 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

Another massive benefit of this type of scenario is that it gives the players a hand in choosing their battles, which makes them 'own' the outcome.

Great pic and of course "ahh the memories" ... another amusing "interesting situation" would be people changing back and forth their mech selection, and ready/not-ready status as the timer counted down....thanks for reminding me of that in a round-about way.

But your point about "owning the outcome" of a match is probably the most spot-on thing I've been thinking about lately related to MWO...and the thing that's costing PGI new-player retention. With 4v4, there's no escaping the fact that you were a part of why your team won or lost. In the current iteration of this game, pugging 12v12, you have little control over the other 2/3 to 11/12 of the outcome/decisions that relate to your rewards.

Why should a new player play a game where they're thrown to the wolves, and have (for them) practically no influence on their "reward"...?