269 replies to this topic

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

AC2 should not be feared and are not by me, AC5 is a bit more respectable but it takes 2 at least to be formidable. AC10 is a respectalbe punch and an AC20 is a Hammer of the gods. Ballistic weapons should not all function the same. An M-16 isn't the same as a .50 cal. One can punch a bullet through a brick wall at 1,800M one can plick off the wall at that range.

One Medium laser (10 damage in 10 seconds) is not the same as one Large laser(18 damage in 10 seconds) That is using beam duration + cool down per 10 seconds. But over 10 seconds 4 outta 5 ACs deliver the same level damage. that is just dumb to me.

I'm not saying they should all be exactly the same, and you are leaving out heat, weight and crit space in your comparisons.

One medium laser takes one ton and one crit. Name an AC that is equivalent to that. There are none. The smallest autocannon is an AC2, which is 6 tons one crit, but does 2 points of damage for almost no heat and has a range of 2160 meters. No energy weapon even reaches out to that distance, let alone for no heat.

An M16 has a shorter range, but higher rate of fire, compared to a .50 cal (I assume you mean a Barrett light 50 or some similar sniper rifle to state that range). Both fire bullets, though, and you trade off on weight and size, just like you do with autocannons in MWO.

What I am suggesting is to have an AC20 do 20 points of damage over a 1-2 second burst, then take the rest of the cooldown time to reload - that is a pretty formidable spray of rounds still. An AC10 would then do 10 damage over 1-2 seconds, then take the rest of the cooldown time to reload. AC5s do 5 damage over 1-2 seconds, then have the rest of the cooldown to reload. AC2s, with their sub 1 second cooldown, would just fire like a long range MG - a constant spray of bullets - but would otherwise function the same as they currently do.

[Joseph Mallan]

Cimarb, on 03 December 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

I'm not saying they should all be exactly the same, and you are leaving out heat, weight and crit space in your comparisons.

One medium laser takes one ton and one crit. Name an AC that is equivalent to that. There are none. The smallest autocannon is an AC2, which is 6 tons one crit, but does 2 points of damage for almost no heat and has a range of 2160 meters. No energy weapon even reaches out to that distance, let alone for no heat.

I am not supporting the ranges o ballistics in the least. They are far to long.

Quote

An M16 has a shorter range, but higher rate of fire, compared to a .50 cal (I assume you mean a Barrett light 50 or some similar sniper rifle to state that range). Both fire bullets, though, and you trade off on weight and size, just like you do with autocannons in MWO.

You trade off more than range and speed.

Quote

What I am suggesting is to have an AC20 do 20 points of damage over a 1-2 second burst, then take the rest of the cooldown time to reload - that is a pretty formidable spray of rounds still. An AC10 would then do 10 damage over 1-2 seconds, then take the rest of the cooldown time to reload. AC5s do 5 damage over 1-2 seconds, then have the rest of the cooldown to reload. AC2s, with their sub 1 second cooldown, would just fire like a long range MG - a constant spray of bullets - but would otherwise function the same as they currently do.

I just can't support making another weapon DpS. I am a slugger, I loved being a Grenadier more than a S.A.W. man that instant BOOM and 3-8 men dead was better to me than hosing down a squad for seconds to get the same results. I like Battle Axes and Claymores over hand axes and Epees.Bruce Lee's Power Punch over Chin Na. I live for bull in a china shop desruction.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

I just can't support making another weapon DpS. I am a slugger, I loved being a Grenadier more than a S.A.W. man that instant BOOM and 3-8 men dead was better to me than hosing down a squad for seconds to get the same results. I like Battle Axes and Claymores over hand axes and Epees.Bruce Lee's Power Punch over Chin Na. I live for bull in a china shop desruction.

You know Joe, currently the AC/20 is 20 damage punch, 4 second wait, 20 damage punch, 4 second wait, and so on.

What if it was 4x5 damage in 1 second, 3 seconds wait?
Or 4x5 damage in 0.5 seconds, 3.5 seconds wait?

Or, god help us, 0.5 damage every 0.1 seconds for 4 seconds, no wait?

All of them add up to 20 damage over 4 seconds, please tell me why you dislike each of them specifically - not just "Grr Joe big, Joe PUNCH!"

[M0rpHeu5]

Don't ask for the nerf of good weapons, ask for the buff of bad weapons

[Joseph Mallan]

Good to see someone else that get's it!

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 03 December 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

You know Joe, currently the AC/20 is 20 damage punch, 4 second wait, 20 damage punch, 4 second wait, and so on.

What if it was 4x5 damage in 1 second, 3 seconds wait?
Or 4x5 damage in 0.5 seconds, 3.5 seconds wait?

Or, god help us, 0.5 damage every 0.1 seconds for 4 seconds, no wait?

All of them add up to 20 damage over 4 seconds, please tell me why you dislike each of them specifically - not just "Grr Joe big, Joe PUNCH!"

Its simple and you said it yourself, I like the 20 point punch to one location. Just as I like the AC10's 10 point punch to one location.

I use lasers to etch damage on my target, I use Missiles to sand armor off multiple locations. I like my Ballistics to to do what Ballistics do. Punch holes in armor.
And Yes... Joe Smash!

This is how I like to get things done! Simple, Brutal... Effective.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 December 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Its simple and you said it yourself, I like the 20 point punch to one location.
[...]
This is how I like to get things done! Simple, Brutal... Effective.

I've gathered as much over the months, Joe

But please, indulge an old BT-head - why don't you like
1. 4x5 damage in 1 second, 3 seconds wait
2. 4x5 damage in 0.5 seconds, 3.5 seconds wait
3. 0.5 damage every 0.1 seconds for 4 seconds, no wait

All of them still keep the AC/20 as the single most powerful weapon in MWO, all of them have 5 DPS, just as the current AC/20; all of them put brutal holes in enemies, just like you like it

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 03 December 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

I've gathered as much over the months, Joe

But please, indulge an old BT-head - why don't you like
1. 4x5 damage in 1 second, 3 seconds wait
2. 4x5 damage in 0.5 seconds, 3.5 seconds wait
3. 0.5 damage every 0.1 seconds for 4 seconds, no wait

All of them still keep the AC/20 as the single most powerful weapon in MWO, all of them have 5 DPS, just as the current AC/20; all of them put brutal holes in enemies, just like you like it

Cause I have Lasers to do that type of damage I want front loaded damage as much (if not more) than DpS. Its a question of death by paper cuts or death by BFH. I wanna weapon for every occasion. Like Jayne, I am just excitable to having choices.

[Dawnstealer]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Even though it is built with an AC5(8 tons) and an AC2(6 tons) in each arm? that is 14 tons per arm or the exact weight of an AC20... for each arm!

What do you think the recoil is like on those smaller weapons?

[Joseph Mallan]

Dawnstealer, on 03 December 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

What do you think the recoil is like on those smaller weapons?

Recoil? How much recoil do any of the games weapons have??? I assume Ballistics come with Recoil Comps built in.

[TirenSilverfall]

Quote

One medium laser takes one ton and one crit. Name an AC that is equivalent to that. There are none. The smallest autocannon is an AC2, which is 6 tons one crit, but does 2 points of damage for almost no heat and has a range of 2160 meters. No energy weapon even reaches out to that distance, let alone for no heat.

Pardon - no heat? Did u ever tried it? Ac/2 generates almost as much heat as ER Large Laser...Thats the highest "price" among all balli. weaponary. Next - to utilize its high dps u have to keep your opponent within vision range and land ALL your shots, which is quite troublesome task.

[Cimarb]

TirenSilverfall, on 03 December 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Pardon - no heat? Did u ever tried it? Ac/2 generates almost as much heat as ER Large Laser...Thats the highest "price" among all balli. weaponary. Next - to utilize its high dps u have to keep your opponent within vision range and land ALL your shots, which is quite troublesome task.

How much heat does one AC2 generate per shot? Have you ever read that number? Ghost heat is the only reason AC2s are "hot", and ghost heat would not be needed if autocannons (and PPCs) were damage over time weapons.

stjobe, on 03 December 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

I've gathered as much over the months, Joe

But please, indulge an old BT-head - why don't you like
1. 4x5 damage in 1 second, 3 seconds wait
2. 4x5 damage in 0.5 seconds, 3.5 seconds wait
3. 0.5 damage every 0.1 seconds for 4 seconds, no wait

All of them still keep the AC/20 as the single most powerful weapon in MWO, all of them have 5 DPS, just as the current AC/20; all of them put brutal holes in enemies, just like you like it

Exactly. Same damage, same cooldown, much better balance between weapon systems and longer fights - they just need to try it and see how much it benefits the game...

[akpavker]

stjobe, on 03 December 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

3. 0.5 damage every 0.1 seconds for 4 seconds, no wait

this would be as bad as 4 ac5's on chain fire or a ac2 that does more damage. people would still complain like a bunch of crying maggots due to cabin shake.

stjobe, on 03 December 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

2. 4x5 damage in 0.5 seconds, 3.5 seconds wait

this is probably the best option

stjobe, on 03 December 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

1. 4x5 damage in 1 second, 3 seconds wait

damage duration is to long at this point your probably better running 2 LPL

[Wolfways]

I like AC's they way they are currently. Bang....bang...bang instead of dakka dakka dakka with the bigger shells having a slower fire rate.
But PGI screwed up by giving AC's increased RoF, 3x range, and a heat increase that doesn't affect them much, and giving lasers a beam mechanic without increasing the damage, only 2x range, and a heat increase that affects them greatly. A big buff to AC's and a big nerf to lasers.
If you change a weapon to make it less useful (i.e. spreads damage while others do not) you should increase the damage. That means increased damage for lasers, SRM's, LRM's, LB-10 X AC, etc. Or you should decrease the damage of the weapons that do not spread damage.

[ErebusTheScarred]

Ecto Cooler, on 03 December 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

Instead of looking at this -- go play one and report back. I doubt you'll hold the same opinion.

I do have one. I have an ac40 jager. It was one of the first mechs that I made. I made it because it made my life in farming into other mechs much easier. Now that I'm a better player, I don't touch the thing, because it poses no challenge to use. When I do 700 in an ac40 jager I'm disappointed, when I do 700 in my X5, or my stalker, or any of the other dozen mechs I have I'm usually ecstatic.

And to the response about shooting for the head for the kill, that's not really a feasible shot against most mechs. When you can dual ac40 against the center torso and critical most mechs in one volley I feel like it's easy mode. Then there's the fact that no matter how squishy you are in your ac40 you can take the time to line up the perfect shot, and one vs one, unless the person is full on close range brawler, you'll be able to take him down before he can take you down, because a decent ac40 player will twist and turn enough to get the second shot off almost 100% of the time, and that will spell death for everything except the tankiest of mechs.

[BlackDrakon]

AC/20 = low ammo, low range, slow reload, BAD BAD BAD hit detection. The only good thing is the big punch. (when registers the damage)

WTH Are u talking about?

Edited by BlackDrakon, 03 December 2013 - 10:03 PM.

[ErebusTheScarred]

BlackDrakon, on 03 December 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

AC/20 = low ammo, low range, slow reload, BAD BAD BAD hit detection. The only good thing is the big punch. (when registers the damage)

WTH Are u talking about?

You haven't read what's been said. The range on AC20 is not bad at all. Remember the whole 3x optimal thing.

[Joseph Mallan]

Cimarb, on 03 December 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

How much heat does one AC2 generate per shot? Have you ever read that number? Ghost heat is the only reason AC2s are "hot", and ghost heat would not be needed if autocannons (and PPCs) were damage over time weapons.


Exactly. Same damage, same cooldown, much better balance between weapon systems and longer fights - they just need to try it and see how much it benefits the game...

Problem is I play This style

And DpS does not give me that kinda damage.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 December 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

Problem is I play This style

And DpS does not give me that kinda damage.

It could.

4x5 damage in 0.5 seconds with 3.5 seconds cooldown is close enough that you'll be able to put that 20 damage in the same spot with some skill - and at the same time it gives your target a chance to react and mitigate some of the damage if he's fast enough.

I mean, I see why you don't want it to change. It's better. But it's also destroying balance. It has to change in some way, and making ballistics burst-fire is the least destructive, closest to BattleTech lore way I can see of changing it.

The alternative is to fiddle with conversion or implement a cone of fire in some way, and that just opens up too many cans of worms - nobody likes the random spread of the MG (even if some blowhards try to make it like it's no big deal - let's see it on all direct-fire weapons if it's no big deal, sunshine), so that's not a good solution.

Burst-fire is the way to go, because immediate, pin-point damage can't stay. It's so much more powerful than beam-duration or missile spread that it's nigh-on impossible to balance, and it's hurting the game. Badly.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 04 December 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

It could.

4x5 damage in 0.5 seconds with 3.5 seconds cooldown is close enough that you'll be able to put that 20 damage in the same spot with some skill - and at the same time it gives your target a chance to react and mitigate some of the damage if he's fast enough.

I mean, I see why you don't want it to change. It's better. But it's also destroying balance. It has to change in some way, and making ballistics burst-fire is the least destructive, closest to BattleTech lore way I can see of changing it.

The alternative is to fiddle with conversion or implement a cone of fire in some way, and that just opens up too many cans of worms - nobody likes the random spread of the MG (even if some blowhards try to make it like it's no big deal - let's see it on all direct-fire weapons if it's no big deal, sunshine), so that's not a good solution.

Burst-fire is the way to go, because immediate, pin-point damage can't stay. It's so much more powerful than beam-duration or missile spread that it's nigh-on impossible to balance, and it's hurting the game. Badly.

Immediate pin point Alpha damage needs to go. A single 20 point hammer does not. Nor a 10 point hammer. 2-6 hammers hitting the same spot at once IS wrong. Take away the convergence from my 60 point Alpha strikes but leave my 60 point alpha alone!