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Engine Ratings And Weight Class Balance


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#1 Artgathan

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 06:53 AM

What follows is an enormous wall of text, with some numbers and charts. The purpose of this is to analyze how engine balance is impacting the relative balance of different weight classes in MW:O.

Introduction
Medium class battlemechs received a series of mobility a few patches ago. These were designed to increase the viability of mediums on the battlefield, and hopefully cause an upswing in their numbers on the field. However, despite mediums being the most numerous class at the moment (possessing a whopping seven chassis available, with an additional two coming in the next few weeks) they are woefully underrepresented on the field. Consider that with 9 available chassis, mediums represent 34.6% of chassis in the game, but less than 25% of the chassis on the field (according to data collected by a member of the playerbase. If someone can provide me with the link to that excellent study I would be much obliged. 30 minutes of searching has not revealed it to me).

In general the reason for their scarcity is put down to their overlarge size, but I would like to submit that the true problem with mediums is that they are not mobile enough. Consider that most mediums in this game are easily outpaced by many heavy mechs (and a few notable assault mechs). This occurs becase mediums don't mount large enough engines to be able to move fast enough to escape from their larger counterparts.

Therefore I set out to analyze the reason for the lack of speed in the medium class. The results may surprise you.

Methods & Results
I began by arranging mechs by “Optimal Speed”. This is a scale arranged linearly from 64 kph on an Atlas to 171 kph on a Locust. Based on this scale, a “mobile” 60-ton mech should move at 108 kph, and a mobile 45-ton mech should move at 128 kph. In most cases these speed values do not actually exceed the maximum speed available to the class (for instance, on my scale a Cicada should move at 134 kph, but in MW:O can easily reach 151 kph), though in a few (such as the Blackjack) the Optimal Speed is currently outside the engines available to the mech.

I then compared the weight of the engine against the total weight of the mech. For instance, a Locust that runs at 171 kph requires a 190 rated engine. A STD 190 engine occupies 47.00% of the Locust's mass. I then grouped the “relative engine weights” by mech weight class (IE: by light, medium, heavy and assault).

On average, the Standard Engine required to propel a mech at it's optimal speed occupies:
  • Light: 57.88%
  • Medium: 71.69%
  • Heavy: 67.31%
  • Assault: 52.41%
The same, but for Extra Light (XL) Engines:
  • Light: 37.92%
  • Medium: 43.73%
  • Heavy: 38.97%
  • Assault: 30.40%
Here these results are, illustrated as graphs:



Posted Image

The important points to note are the general shape of the chart (it starts and ends low) and how different mechs stand in relation to the red line (which is the average amount of the mech's mass that an engine occupies). If a mech is below the line it means that the engine is “too light” for the mech's weight – these mechs get to devote more tonnage to weapons and armor. If a mech is above the line it means that the engine is “too heavy” - these mechs get to devote less tonnage to weapons and armor.

Engine Rating alone cannot describe the issue. Obviously heavier mechs will require heavier engines to reach higher speeds. However, notice that reaching the Optimal Speed is easier both for Light and the heavier Assault mechs (with the exception of 85 ton mechs):
Posted Image

Part of the problem illustrated by this chart is that engine ratings for mechs 40 tons and above are tightly constrained. Every mech 40 tons and heavier uses an engine in the 325 - 400 range to achieve it's Optimal Speed. This is a range of 75 engine ratings, compared to the range of 100 ratings offered by mechs 20-35 tons. (Also note that in this graph the position of a given mech tonnage relative to the green line is more important than to the red line).

Even breaking a problem down in a different way does not solve the issue. If we say that for a mech to be "Quick":
  • Lights need to go 120 kph
  • Mediums need to go 100 kph
  • Heavies need to go 80 kph
  • Assaults need to go 60 kph
There's still a significant discrepancy in the amount of tonnage that goes to making a mech reach these speeds (this data is for STD engines only, though rest assured that XL engines follow the same pattern):
  • Lights: 34.83%
  • Mediums: 49.59%
  • Heavies: 39.28%
  • Assaults: 29.18%
Conclusion



Mediums (and to a lesser extent, Heavies) are getting the short end of the engine stick. They must devote disproporionately more of their weight towards getting an engine that allows them to move at their "Optimal" (by which I mean the optimal defined at the beginning of this post) speed, or even just a quick pace (100 kph).

Mediums require an engine that can occupy as much as 71% of their mass to reach Optimal Speeds, or 50% of their mass to reach "Quick" Speeds. In contrast, Assaults require 52% to reach Optimal Speeds, or 30% to reach Quick Speeds.

What can be done about this? For starters how engine rating interacts with mech weight can be tweaked to help bring everyone into line (IE: current engine ratings should either make Lights and Assaults go slower than they currently do, or they should make Mediums and Heavies go faster than they currently do). Playing with actual engine weights is undesirable as the developpers have stated that they do not want to change the weights of any in-game items.

Obviously there are some limitations to this study: it relies heavily on the "Optimal Speed" I discussed in the introduction being relevant to actual gameplay. I think that this is a reasonable assumption based on the speed we typically see in use on the field. Even if the Optimal Speed proves to be irrelevant, I believe that the Quick Speed analysis still holds.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I hope it helps to shed some light on the relative balance between weight classes, and what can be done to help increase the viability of the medium class.

Addendum - Conclusions from Discussion
The discussion in the posts that follows contributes a lot to this original post. Specifically, we uncovered that the problem we're seeing here is due to mechs being pushed towards extremely large engine sizes. Essentially, engines in the 300+ category have an exponential growth in size. Mediums (and most Heavies) were not meant to carry such enormous engines, so they suffer disproportionately when forced to carry them due to the current state of the battlefield. When everything stays around the "stock" mech speeds from the Table Top game, the engine mass / speed ratio is closer to being balanced.

This unveils a deeper problem: why do mechs need such ridiculously high speeds in order to be effective on the battlefield? At this point it's fairly common knowledge that any Light mech moving less than 120 kph is going to be vaporized as soon as it enters the enemy's LOS. Mediums tend to move along somewhere around 100 kph on most builds.

Exploring this issue led to the discovery that an Atlas, fully mastered, with a 300-Rated engine can "track" (IE: keep the crosshairs on top of) any mech in the game at any range greater than 50 metres (meaning that if you're less than 50 metres from the Atlas, and you're hustling at 170 kph, the Atlas won't be able to track you), just by turning. When the torso twist is included, said Atlas can track mechs that move at 180 kph until they're 25 metres away.

Continuing this exploration, I found that every mech 65 - 80 tons is capable of tracking a mech running at 150 kph so long as the target is at least 15 metres away. What does this mean? Those lights that "face-hug" are doing it because the only time they can run faster than Heavy and Assault mechs can turn is at these extremely short ranges. Anything over that and you can turn as fast as they can run.

This leads to my following recommendation: cut the turn / twist / arm speeds of every mech in the game. Currently everything is too fast (especially Heavy and Assault mechs). The ability of Heavy and Assault mechs to track Light and Medium mechs is what has led to the superiority of Heavy and Assault mechs on the battlefield. Since Light and Medium mechs cannot hope to evade, they simply get vaporized. If mobility (meaning turn / twist / arm) speeds were reduced, Light and Medium mechs would become more viable on the battlefield (since they would have increased survivability). Given the current mobility settings, the triangle of "Mobility - Firepower - Armor" does not exist (since every mech has extreme mobility).

This reduction in mobility would also allow for Light and Medium mechs to use smaller engine sizes (by which I mean "closer to stock" engine sizes) and then equip more varied loadouts. It would also enforce a sort of hierarchy where

Light < Medium < Heavy < Assault < Light



This would increase the need for Medium mechs on the field, since they would be able to protect the Heavy / Assault mechs from more mobile lighter mechs.

Edited by Artgathan, 05 December 2013 - 03:58 PM.


#2 Artgathan

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:36 AM

Does anyone have any input?

#3 Gunivar

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:43 AM

Medium mechs suffer the most from the speed vs weapons/Utility choice.
If a Cataphract sacrifices speed in order to fully embrace ACWarrior online, it doesn't really matter.
If a Jenner goes a bit slower to be able to make further use of lasers, then it doesn't really matter.
Medium mechs are required to be more nimble than other mechs, but with the situation that you describe, they sacrifice too much firepower to do so, for minimal reward.
They become reliant on using the most optimal build possible; a sacrifice of the player's preferred playstyle.

#4 Mudhutwarrior

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:53 AM

I have one Medium and have mastered three and that's all that's left. Its my fun build just used for harassment. Can't build it fast enough without the firepower of the light nerf.

#5 SniperCon

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:54 AM

I have a good file with a bunch of engine charts. Could someone tell me how to post it here?

#6 Artgathan

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:59 AM

View PostSniperCon, on 27 November 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

I have a good file with a bunch of engine charts. Could someone tell me how to post it here?


What I did was to upload each of the charts I wanted to display to a free image-hosting service (imgur, in my case) and then link them here. As far as I know this is the only way to get them onto the forum as you can't just copy/paste them from documents on your computer.

#7 FupDup

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:11 AM

View PostArtgathan, on 27 November 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Even breaking a problem down in a different way does not solve the issue. If we say that for a mech to be "Quick":
  • Lights need to go 120 kph
  • Mediums need to go 100 kph
  • Heavies need to go 80 kph
  • Assaults need to go 60 kph



If you want a viable light, you're going to need at least 140 KPH, and when possible 150+. On a Jenner, you need 44.29% of your total mass in your engine to reach optimal speed (XL 300).

A Medium can handle slightly under 100 just fine, as evidenced by an XL 300 Shadow Hawk (which takes up 28.18% of its mass). A medium doesn't have to run at Streaktaro speed to be worthwhile.

Heavies can often afford to go a tad under 80 if they so feel, but should definitely be at least in the lower 70's.

The Victor, an assault mech, should probably go at least in the middle-upper 70's for speed, or else it's basically a baby Highlander.


Note that I'm not saying there aren't some issues with the weight classes, I'm just saying that your specific generalizations are totally lowballing for lights, overballing for mediums a bit (outside of the Cicada, but that is a giant light basically), and occasionally overballing on heavies by just a hair.

Edited by FupDup, 27 November 2013 - 10:34 AM.


#8 Durant Carlyle

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:18 AM

Mediums not mobile enough? Bull puckey. They are already able to keep up with lights for far longer than they should be able to.

The classes break down as such:
Light: Advantage -- Mobility. Average -- Nothing. Disadvantage -- Armor, Firepower.
Medium: Advantage -- Nothing. Average -- Armor, Firepower, Mobility. Disadvantage -- Nothing.
Heavy: Advantage -- Firepower. Average -- Armor, Mobility. Disadvantage -- Nothing.
Assault: Advantage -- Armor, Firepower. Average -- Nothing. Disadvantage -- Mobility.

Mediums don't excel at anything, but they are not meant to. They are versatile, and can be built for various tasks.

I will not accept any argument that says lights need to go slower and mediums need to go faster, because it's simply not true.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 27 November 2013 - 10:19 AM.


#9 Murphy7

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:19 AM

Excellent work, OP.

/TT

Engine ratings are restricted by walk speed * tonnage.
Mediums in this regime are the best mix of speed, durability, and firepower.
Clan tech bleeds this into the heavies.

/TT end

Open engine rating system offers many more choices, which benefits those who were most proscribed in another system. Lights have more options within their tonnage, assaults are not pinned to a very small number of engine ratings.

#10 FupDup

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:24 AM

View PostDurant Carlyle, on 27 November 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

...

The classes break down as such:
--
Medium: Advantage -- Nothing. Average -- Armor, Firepower, Mobility. Disadvantage -- Nothing.
Heavy: Advantage -- Firepower. Average -- Armor, Mobility. Disadvantage -- Nothing.
--

Mediums don't excel at anything, but they are not meant to. They are versatile, and can be built for various tasks.

Notice how mediums and heavies have the same disadvantage of "nothing," but heavies have extra firepower on top of sharing armor and mobility with mediums? This means that your chart is actually claiming that heavies are far more versatile, and in current gameplay they are more versatile than every medium excluding Shadow Hawks.

Edited by FupDup, 27 November 2013 - 10:28 AM.


#11 Artgathan

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:33 AM

View PostFupDup, on 27 November 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:





If you want a viable light, you're going to need at least 140 KPH, and when possible 150+. On a Jenner, you need 44.29% of your total mass in your engine to reach optimal speed (XL 300).

A Medium can handle slightly under 100 just fine, as evidenced by an XL 300 Shadow Hawk (which takes up 28.18% of its mass). A medium doesn't have to run at Streaktaro speed to be worthwhile.

Heavies can often afford to go a tad under 80 if they so feel, but should definitely be at least in the lowest 70's.

The Victor, an assault mech, should probably go at least in the middle-upper 70's for speed, or else it's basically a baby Highlander.



Note that I'm not saying there aren't some issues with the weight classes, I'm just saying that your specific generalizations are totally lowballing for lights, overballing for mediums a bit (outside of the Cicada, but that is a giant light basically), and occasionally overballing on heavies by just a hair.


I agree that the speeds I've listed are not 100% consistent with what's actually useful on the battlefield. That said, making the adjustments you've outlined would increase the discrepancy between mediums and other classes.

In general I didn't want to get into specifics (for instance, people tend to play fast Battlemasters but slow Stalkers), but instead get into the mobility options available. I also want to avoid comparing STD to XL engines. I know this leaves some significant pitfalls in the data, but with upcoming hitbox changes XL engines may become extremely risky. Also consider that XL engines tend to be mech-specific (put an XL on that HBK-1G, I dare you).

View PostDurant Carlyle, on 27 November 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Mediums not mobile enough? Bull puckey. They are already able to keep up with lights for far longer than they should be able to.

The classes break down as such:
Light: Advantage -- Mobility. Average -- Nothing. Disadvantage -- Armor, Firepower.
Medium: Advantage -- Nothing. Average -- Armor, Firepower, Mobility. Disadvantage -- Nothing.
Heavy: Advantage -- Firepower. Average -- Armor, Mobility. Disadvantage -- Nothing.
Assault: Advantage -- Armor, Firepower. Average -- Nothing. Disadvantage -- Mobility.

Mediums don't excel at anything, but they are not meant to. They are versatile, and can be built for various tasks.

I will not accept any argument that says lights need to go slower and mediums need to go faster, because it's simply not true.


There are only a few mediums that can "keep up with lights for far longer than they should be able to" and they are woefully under-armed compared to the lights they're pursuing. Consider that a Centurion needs a 340-rated engine to break 120 kph, which would consume 68% (STD) or 41% (XL) of it's available tonnage. The point of the discussion was not to suggest that lights needed to go slower, or mediums faster, simply that mediums are getting a bad deal in terms of engine-weight to speed.

To counter, I would say that there are Heavies and Assaults that can keep up with mediums for far longer than they should be able to.

#12 Artgathan

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:38 AM

View PostFupDup, on 27 November 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

Notice how mediums and heavies have the same disadvantage of "nothing," but heavies have extra firepower on top of sharing armor and mobility with mediums? This means that your chart is actually claiming that heavies are far more versatile, and in current gameplay they are more versatile than every medium excluding Shadow Hawks.


To build on this, if you consider that my charts show that both Mediums and Heavies are at an engine disadvantage, the easy solution is to jump in a heavy since you'll have more absolute tonnage free for weapons (and armor takes proportionally the same amount of tonnage for weight). What I mean is this:

I put an engine that eats up 50% of my Centurion's weight, armor eats 20%. I've got 15 tons to play with.
I put an engine that eats up 50% of my Cataphract's weight, armor eats 20%. I've got 21 tons to play with.

Based on this, the Cataphract has significantly greater weaponry (140% more tons free for guns) but the Centurion would have a roughly 25-30kph speed advantage.

#13 Almond Brown

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:41 AM

View PostArtgathan, on 27 November 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Does anyone have any input?


Turns out a Medium Mech that can actually reach your "Quick" speed limit, 100+ kph and NOT use 70+% of its Mass doing so, can be geared such that they become so much better than Lights, the Lights have no function. Sort of like now as to why Mediums have no real place as the Heavies do it all better.

Medium Mechs got an Engine NERF along time ago. They were shelved and have not really recovered.

That is not to say my HunchBack with its AC20, 2ML and 81kph (89kph tweaked) generating engine is not dangerous, it is. It just does not survive those short and usually ugly encounters it faces every so often that my Heavy Mech seems to. :)

#14 SniperCon

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:29 AM

Here is MWO Engine Charts.xlsx. I created it for my own use, so it's not well organized. Please forgive the layout and lack of titles. There are 5 sheets which show different things.

STE Speed Chart - A chart of speeds and available tonnage for all mech weights and standard engine options. Available tonnage assumes endo steel and no armor. Speed assumes speed tweak. Extra heatsinks for engines smaller that 250 are also included. Data points with a "glow" represent maximum engines for some chassis. There is an optimal XL line for reference as well.

XLE Speed Chart - Same thing as STE Speed Chart but for XL engines. There is an optimal ST line for reference as well.

Engine Map - This shows the relative advantage / disadvantage in speed or available tonnage compared to the next best alternative of a different mech weight. There are four data tables.
1. (XL speed comparison) Percent faster / slower for XL engines than fastest other mech weight with >= available tonnage.
2. (XL available tonnage comparison) Difference is available tonnage for XL engines compared to highest available tonnage for other mech weight with >= top speed.
3. (ST speed comparison) Same as 1. but for ST engines.
4. (ST available tonnage comparison) Same as 2. but for ST engines.

Speed Data - Source data used by the charts and tables. Minimum and maximum engine sizes can be configured here and will display in the charts. For example set the maximum engine size for 45 tons to 360 to see that the optimal engine size of 330-340 (not possible with the Blackjack) lines up almost exactly with the optimal 40 ton configuration of 295-300. This means that a fast 45 ton can be operate as a "big light" as efficiently as the Cicada. Also noteworthy is the equation for top speed:
Max Speed = 32.4 + ( (Engine Size - (2 * Mech Tons) ) / 5 * 81 * ( Mech Tons ^ -1 ) )

Engines: Source data for engines. StdT means tons required to mount engine including additional heat sinks. RawStT means tons required for just the engine. Same goes for XL. HS is heat sinks included in the engine. HSo is additional heat sink slots which don't use up additional crit space.

The overall result of the analysis is the best XL engines are 295, 300, 340, 350, and 360. The best standard engines are 285, 295, 300, and 325. Bigger mechs make best use of the top end of the scale; smaller mechs the bottom end. In practice loadouts running in the speed sweet spot seem to make better use of weight efficient weapons (MLas, SRMs). Mechs running weight inefficient weapons (PPCs, ACs) don't gain as much advantage from running in the speed sweet spot.

#15 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:46 AM

To improve balance between Mech Classes, I think we need to have changes to how Mech Efficiencies work; they really need to be updated with something more dynamic anyway, and reusing modules as a model can be a big part of that.

So, existing efficiencies like Heat Containment, Arm Reflex, Cool Run, Kinetic Burst and all of the rest are converted to modules to join with other passive boosts like Sensor Range, Seismic Sensor, Hill Climb, Improved Gyro and so on as Basic Efficiencies. Make it a choice do I carry upgrades for Air Strikes over Sensors, or do I use modules to improve mech responsiveness?

Consumables can then be setup as Elite Modules using any and all existing restrictions such as the limits on Cool Shot.

And any and all balance restrictions can be applied from here between the Basic and Elite module classes. Along the lines of module types Movement (agility), Vision, Combat (like the two Heat ones), Targeting, Support, Sensor and so on.

Then the Master Efficiency can be something totally unique to each variant, say a Medium Laser boost on a HBK-4P that allows for quicker dissipation, a PPC boost on the AWS-8Q and 9M allowing three ER/PPCs or anything else that would be variant appropriate.

Posted Image



Then from here, with certain modules like Speed Tweak, what if it would only be available on mechs 40 to 60 tons? (Likewise, other modules will have their restrictions in this manner also).

This way there are more balancing measures available such as being able to tweak engine ratings as necessary. Could possibly raise the rating for lights (to achieve current speeds with Speed Tweak) if Speed Tweak were to be restricted in such a manner if it ever would be needed as the game evolves.

And the main goal with this is to keep customization open and allow for players to take their mechs in different directions since we will be presented with the need to make more trade-offs compared to what we currently have and allow mechs to have quirks that don't sink the variants compared to others.

I hope I made sense.

#16 Zyllos

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:50 AM

View PostFupDup, on 27 November 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:



If you want a viable light, you're going to need at least 140 KPH, and when possible 150+. On a Jenner, you need 44.29% of your total mass in your engine to reach optimal speed (XL 300).

A Medium can handle slightly under 100 just fine, as evidenced by an XL 300 Shadow Hawk (which takes up 28.18% of its mass). A medium doesn't have to run at Streaktaro speed to be worthwhile.

Heavies can often afford to go a tad under 80 if they so feel, but should definitely be at least in the lower 70's.

The Victor, an assault mech, should probably go at least in the middle-upper 70's for speed, or else it's basically a baby Highlander.


Note that I'm not saying there aren't some issues with the weight classes, I'm just saying that your specific generalizations are totally lowballing for lights, overballing for mediums a bit (outside of the Cicada, but that is a giant light basically), and occasionally overballing on heavies by just a hair.


This...is not always true.

It may be true in an environment where tonnage has no upper/lower bound and equipment is unlimited, but in a situation where tonnage is limited, skills differ, and equipment is more restricted, you don't absolutely have to have a 140kph light for it to be effective.

A slower Commando that mounts many SRMs is a good example of a mech that can be slower that punch much higher than it's weight against targets, granted you can maintain enough discipline to avoid fire from mechs that can push out a ton of firepower.

Overall, I don't see the scale of needed tonnage for specific movement speeds across mech types as much of a problem.

View PostPraetor Shepard, on 27 November 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

To improve balance between Mech Classes, I think we need to have changes to how Mech Efficiencies work; they really need to be updated with something more dynamic anyway, and reusing modules as a model can be a big part of that.

So, existing efficiencies like Heat Containment, Arm Reflex, Cool Run, Kinetic Burst and all of the rest are converted to modules to join with other passive boosts like Sensor Range, Seismic Sensor, Hill Climb, Improved Gyro and so on as Basic Efficiencies. Make it a choice do I carry upgrades for Air Strikes over Sensors, or do I use modules to improve mech responsiveness?

Consumables can then be setup as Elite Modules using any and all existing restrictions such as the limits on Cool Shot.

And any and all balance restrictions can be applied from here between the Basic and Elite module classes. Along the lines of module types Movement (agility), Vision, Combat (like the two Heat ones), Targeting, Support, Sensor and so on.

Then the Master Efficiency can be something totally unique to each variant, say a Medium Laser boost on a HBK-4P that allows for quicker dissipation, a PPC boost on the AWS-8Q and 9M allowing three ER/PPCs or anything else that would be variant appropriate.

Posted Image



Then from here, with certain modules like Speed Tweak, what if it would only be available on mechs 40 to 60 tons? (Likewise, other modules will have their restrictions in this manner also).

This way there are more balancing measures available such as being able to tweak engine ratings as necessary. Could possibly raise the rating for lights (to achieve current speeds with Speed Tweak) if Speed Tweak were to be restricted in such a manner if it ever would be needed as the game evolves.

And the main goal with this is to keep customization open and allow for players to take their mechs in different directions since we will be presented with the need to make more trade-offs compared to what we currently have and allow mechs to have quirks that don't sink the variants compared to others.

I hope I made sense.


This is akin to a skill tree where you have limited options available to equip out of a pool of abilities.

I have asked PGI to do this and I think it would GREATLY add to the variety of mechs and places a much bigger emphasis the module mechanics.

#17 Nik Van Rhijn

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:13 PM

De-linking torso twist, turn speed etc from engine size and making it class/chassis specific would go a long way towards helping mediums ( and lights). Heavies and Assaults are too mobile, especially if they ever completely fix HSR.
It will never happen due to the cries from those who pilot them. PFG won't do it as, due to their pricing policy they make much more money from them.

#18 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:18 PM

View PostZyllos, on 27 November 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

This is akin to a skill tree where you have limited options available to equip out of a pool of abilities.

I have asked PGI to do this and I think it would GREATLY add to the variety of mechs and places a much bigger emphasis the module mechanics.


I know they have a lot on their plate, but this kind of idea seems important enough to explore and test out, if they haven't done so already on something similar to what we've been presenting.

And I'd love to see a sneak peek of any progress in this area, in a Command Chair post at least.




View PostNik Van Rhijn, on 27 November 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

De-linking torso twist, turn speed etc from engine size and making it class/chassis specific would go a long way towards helping mediums ( and lights). Heavies and Assaults are too mobile, especially if they ever completely fix HSR.


This too would be a welcome change, especially for Mediums.

#19 Khobai

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:47 PM

That's why every weight class needs a unique skill tree. Mediums should get a unique skill at master level which gives them an additional 10% speed bonus.

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Mediums not mobile enough? Bull puckey. They are already able to keep up with lights for far longer than they should be able to.


No they cant. Most mediums top out at 90-100. Lights top out at 150-170. Mediums cant keep up with Lights AT ALL. What are you smoking?

The reality is if heavies go 80 and lights go 150 then mediums should go somewhere in between which is around 115-120kph. Medium mechs are about 15%-20% too slow. Because mediums cant be expected to spend more tonnage on their engine, the only logical solution is to give mediums unique skills in their skill tree.

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De-linking torso twist, turn speed etc from engine size and making it class/chassis specific would go a long way towards helping mediums ( and lights). Heavies and Assaults are too mobile, especially if they ever completely fix HSR.


Personally I would do this:

1) remove anchor turn and speed tweak from heavies/assaults and replace them with shake reduction and damage reduction skills instead (less mobility, more stability/survivability makes sense). For example, -17% shake reduction and +5% center/side torso damage reduction respectively)

2) give each weight class its own unique master level skill. For example, the unique master level skill for mediums might give them an additional +10% speed and +10% hill climbing.

Possible examples of new master level skills:
Light - Lights gain +10% sensor range, +12.5% detailed target info speed, and unlock an extra hardpoint that can only be used for TAG/NARC
Medium - Mediums gain +10% speed and +10% hill climbing
Heavy - Heavies gain +5% speed and +5% overall damage reduction
Assault - Assaults gain +5% overall damage reduction and 25% damage reduction to items from critical hits

Edited by Khobai, 27 November 2013 - 01:33 PM.


#20 Thorqemada

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 01:02 PM

Imho currently the "Optimal Speed" should spread as follows:
Lights = 145
Mediums = 105
Heavys = 75
Assaults = 55

You do only play Mediums if you have a "**** the Meta!" approach.

Edited by Thorqemada, 27 November 2013 - 01:02 PM.






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