45 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 27 November 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

And if you ever crack open that Vault of C-Bills you must have accumulated as a Founder, that ratio may go up or down.

Can't buy much with 750,000 C-bills!

[KharnZor]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 November 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Can't buy much with 750,000 C-bills!

Because one can never own enough small lasers eh

[Joseph Mallan]

KharnZor, on 27 November 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Because one can never own enough small lasers eh

Yes... Yes one can. I am not frugal.

[KharnZor]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 November 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Yes... Yes one can. I am not frugal.

Feels
I'm always poor

[SniperCon]

focuspark, on 27 November 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Jump Jets are awesome. Using a mech without them is rough. Being able to rotate quickly lets you distribute incoming fire and turn to face whomever. Add in the peek-a-boo-i-shoot aspect of poptarting and Jump Jets are a winning decision.

That said, they not quite as borked and unbalanced as ECM; so let's focus on getting ECM fixed first. :-)

Name the best ecm mech per weight class:
Raven, Cicada, Atlas

Name the best mech per weight class:
Jenner, ShadowHawk, Cataphract, Highlander

JJ > ECM

[Khobai]

The benefits of jumpjets on most mechs far outweighs the disadvantages. That should not be the case.

If a mech like the Highlander equips jumpjets then it needs to be at a combat disadvantage compared to the Atlas, and it just isnt, because its better in combat than an Atlas in almost every way. A Highlander with an XL engine has the same tonnage to work with as an Atlas, and because of poptarting/jumpjet mitigation to the legs, a properly played XL Highlander has far better survivability than an Atlas too. The balance between the Highlander and Atlas is currently a joke.

PGI needs to take a lesson from the Catapult. Mechs with jumpjets should have 2 less hardpoints than mechs without jumpjets. Highlanders should not get the same large weapon hardpoints as Atlases, Jenners should not have more hardpoints than Ravens, etc... This would also help reduce poptarting because poptarts would have less firepower to compete with non-poptarts in a sniping war..

Edited by Khobai, 27 November 2013 - 02:04 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 27 November 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

PGI needs to take a lesson from the Catapult. Mechs with jumpjets should get 1-2 less hardpoints than mechs without jumpjets. Highlanders should not get the same hardpoints as Atlases, Jenners should not get more hardpoints than Ravens, etc... Mechs with jumpjets should not get the same firepower as mechs without jumpjets.

If only this applied to the K2 Catapult.

[Khobai]

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If only this applied to the K2 Catapult.

Agreed. K2s should get 7-8 hardpoints. Especially because of the Jester having jumpjets.

Also:
Either non-DDC Atlases should get 9 hardpoints (+1) or Highlanders should get 6 hardpoints (-1)
Jenners should get 5 hardpoints (-1) and non-3L Ravens should get 6 hardpoints (+1)

It makes absolutely no sense that a Jenner has more firepower than the non-3L Raven. Especially since the Raven has so many other disadvantages compared to the Jenner to begin with (like being twice as tall!)

PGI doesnt seem to apply any balance logic whatsoever when considering mobility vs firepower.

Edited by Khobai, 27 November 2013 - 09:19 PM.

[focuspark]

SniperCon, on 27 November 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Name the best ecm mech per weight class:
Raven, Cicada, Atlas

Name the best mech per weight class:
Jenner, ShadowHawk, Cataphract, Highlander

JJ > ECM

That's more a mechanic of the SHD, CTF, and HGN coming later. The Jenner has always been a superb 'mech.

[Khobai]

JJs alone dont make a mech good though. Look at the Catapult, its terrible. What makes mechs like the Jenner, Shadowhawk, Highlander, etc... good is the fact they have jumpjets and LITTLE OR NO DOWNSIDE.

Jenner has 6 hardpoints. WHY? Why does it get JJ and more firepower than other lights? It doesnt make any sense.

Shadowhawk has 7 hardpoints. Why does the Shadowhawk outgun a K2 with no jumpjets? Again it makes no sense.

Highlanders have the same Dual AC5/Dual PPC or AC20/Dual PPC setup as an Atlas? Again, WHY? Why does the Highlander with jumpjets get the same damage potential as an Atlas?

These mechs just arnt balanced compared to other mechs in the game.

Edited by Khobai, 27 November 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[Majorfatboy]

Stop. Right now.

You whiners have gotten everything else (almost) nerfed into the ground, don't you dare go after jumpjets next. Currently, jumpjets are just fine where they are. You lose critical space and tonnage, you are limited on how many a mech can carry, and they generate heat, which can be a real problem in an energy-heavy brawler, and you travel slowly and lose speed during a jump, your aim shakes, Etc.

What is wrong with you online gamers?! The whole point of playing a game that allows different things to be used is because they are freaking different. If you want a game where all things are exactly the same capability-wise, go play a nascar game, or a football game, or freaking chess, where both sides are only allowed to use the same tools.

Don't like that an opponent used their jets to do a quick-turn and fire at you? Learn all the disadvantages that jump mech has and use them against them. For example: I find that it's easiest to kill spiders when they are jumping, due to the slow, predictable arc their jumpjets put them on. Getting nailed by pop-tarts? Again, predictable pattern. Some victor jump-brawling you into a corner? Focus his right arm off, see how helpful all that jumping is when their primary weapon is gone. Got a catapult hassling you? BIGGEST, EASIEST TO HIT CT / HEAD IN THE FREAKING GAME.

good lord.

[Khobai]

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You lose critical space and tonnage

You get a massive survivability increase though. The tradeoff is completely worth it on any mech that can take JJs.

Quote

Got a catapult hassling you?

Nobody said anything about Catapults. I believe the complaints are directed primarily at Highlanders and Jenners.

[Durant Carlyle]

If they did as you asked, they would have to remove the jump-jet 'Mechs from the game. They would no longer have enough different variants.

And you're comparing a non-combat 'Mech (Raven) to a combat 'Mech (Jenner) in one case.

The same argument could be made for ECM 'Mechs ... they should also have less weapon hardpoints.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 27 November 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

If they did as you asked, they would have to remove the jump-jet 'Mechs from the game. They would no longer have enough different variants.

I dont ever recall saying they should remove jumpjet mechs from the game. All I said was that jumpjet mechs should have less hardpoints than mechs without jumpjets. Which makes perfect sense from a logical standpoint; mechs with higher mobility should have less firepower.

Quote

And you're comparing a non-combat 'Mech (Raven) to a combat 'Mech (Jenner) in one case.

Of course I am. The game only has combat roles. There arnt any non-combat roles. So of course the Raven should be as good in combat as the Jenner. Duh.

Quote

The same argument could be made for ECM 'Mechs ... they should also have less weapon hardpoints.

They do. DDCs have less hardpoints then Atlas-Ds. Cicadas have less hardpoints than other mediums. Spiders, Commandos, and Ravens have less hardpoints than Jenners. All ECM mechs have less hardpoints than other mechs in the same weight class. ECM mechs also cant go 170 kph.

ECM is properly penalized. Jumpjets are NOT. Jumpjets have zero downsides whatsoever on mechs like the Highlander and Jenner. And that is why those mechs are so blatantly dominant in their respective weight classes.

Edited by Khobai, 27 November 2013 - 09:24 PM.

[Durant Carlyle]

Re-read my post. I didn't say anything about you saying they should remove the jump jet 'Mechs from the game. What I said was that if they did as you asked (remove hardpoints from jump jet 'Mechs), there wouldn't be enough different variants of the jump jet 'Mechs any more (to get Elite/Master), and they would have to be removed.

Read the specs on the Commando, Spider, Raven, Cicada, and Atlas again. Do all of the variants have ECM capability? No. Do the ECM-capable variants have less hardpoints than the non-ECM-capable variants? In the majority of cases, no. If they were "properly penalized" as you say, the ECM-capable variants would have less hardpoints than the non-ECM-capable variants in all cases.

The reason the Commando, Spider, and Raven have less hardpoints than the Jenner is that they are lighter and/or carry less weapons in canon.

I must say, you're rather argumentative today in this thread and others. Everything all right?

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 27 November 2013 - 09:45 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Very easy to see why people use jj on mech larger than lights. If you go toe to toe they jump because its much harder to core them. Heck every fighting game I have played you have to jump when fight or you die.

Might as well add few more jj to the lights and make planes. At some point I will give up and run only jj mech.Kind of how I gave up and only run ecm lights.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 27 November 2013 - 10:31 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

They are fine like they are. They need to speed time working on UI2.0 and fixing SRMS etc not changing jump jets.

[XtremWarrior]

Khobai, on 27 November 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

You get a massive survivability increase though. The tradeoff is completely worth it on any mech that can take JJs.

So why do you find buids of JJ-available Mechs without those JJs? Are those just unworking, unusable or simply bad builds?

Khobai, on 27 November 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

ECM is properly penalized. Jumpjets are NOT. Jumpjets have zero downsides whatsoever on mechs like the Highlander and Jenner. And that is why those mechs are so blatantly dominant in their respective weight classes.

So ECM is better balanced than JJs? You should try to say that to all the ECM complainers on the forums!
So far i don't think JJ needs any rework.

[Troutmonkey]

The only thing I want to see if greater fall damage applied to larger mechs who drop from full JJ height after pop-tarting.
Add a small element of skill where the jumper has to buffer their fall or risk legging themselves after a few jumps

[Foxfire]

Honestly, there are two issues I see with Jump Jets.

1) Single JJ's are entirely too effective.

2) JJ's don't have the limited vector control that they should have(with the spider getting full vector control).

I end to pack in more JJ's on my light mechs because I do like having that extra thrust but I just feel that the single JJ, outside of the very light mechs, offer too much lift. It really should be scaled on weight with the lighter mechs in each JJ category receiving the most benefit.

I also want to see things like Death From Above eventually but they can't really do them properly with how limited the control of JJ's are.

That said, I enjoy the mobility that I get with JJs greatly.. to the point where I think my favorite mech to pilot at this point is the Raven 4X.