70 replies to this topic

[Sascha Kohlmann]

Currently MWO is more or less unplayable and has changed from the pretty good balanced game it was before to another "see a pixel of a target and deal extreme damage in a few seconds" game ... AC2 / AC5 / UAC5 duo, trippel or even quads everywhere. Unless you also change your playstyle into this direction there is little you can do. An energy weapon mech is just a sitting duck agains an AC Player, and LRMs seldom have a chance to lockon (either under ECM, or target forwarder is dead before something can be done ... not to mention that dual AMS can take down a 15 LRM salvo without breaking in sweat)



Here is a small list about the main problems from my perspective,what causes them and some suggestions how to fix this problem and make MWO again to a game were every playstyle and weaponmix has its place and can be fun to play.


Problem: Players get sniped on long distances with AC with nearly no time to react if fired uppon
Cause: Ac hit over long distance with extreme accuracy, speed and damage
Solution suggestion: Reduce the accuracy of AC when fired in short succession (to encourage players to shot in short salvos instead hitting the trigger until the target is down [like when fireing when jumping the bullet lands a bit off centre]. Also reduce drastically the damage an AC is doing when exceeding its maximum range.


Problem: Players seldom know where the shooter is and how to escape his fireing corridor or are able to return fire efficiently.
Cause: Compared to Lasers, PPC or LRM AC have a very low optical signature. Additionally the extreme cockpit shake makes it impossible to return fire.
Solution suggestion: Add a more visible signature - may it be a simple trail like tracer rounds or even revealing of the shooters position outside normal sensore range / while under ECM when a LOS is present. Additionally reduce the cockpitshake from AC Damage



You've managed to fix the broken balancing with LRM Rain, Gauss Snipers and Overpowered ECM ... i am sure you will also be able to fix the AC Problem

Edited by Sascha Kohlmann, 27 November 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[Adiuvo]

ACs haven't had major changes to them... ever basically. They were never OP. They still aren't.

This thread has been done to death already.

[FupDup]

[Sandpit]

I'm glad someone finally got the nerve to post on this

[Bront]

Balance in MWO has never been better.

Doesn't mean it's balanced.

AC2/5 need a longer refire rate, and head dissipation needs to get better. That will make energy builds more durrable and reduce some of the AC2/5 Meta we're seeing now.

[FupDup]

Bront, on 27 November 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

Balance in MWO has never been better.

Doesn't mean it's balanced.

AC2/5 need a longer refire rate, and head dissipation needs to get better. That will make energy builds more durrable and reduce some of the AC2/5 Meta we're seeing now.

...The AC/2 isn't a part of the meta, it's more of a "just for funzies" weapon. For "true" metabuilds right now, you need ACs rated 5 or higher (and some large energy weapons, preferably a pair of PPCs).


We do definitely need a heat system reform to give energy weapons actual stamina in a firefight, but the ACs themselves aren't really overpowered. They just seem that way because they can (excluding AC/2 and paired AC/20) bypass the burden of slow heat dissipation.

Edited by FupDup, 27 November 2013 - 03:06 PM.

[Bront]

FupDup, on 27 November 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

...The AC/2 isn't a part of the meta, it's more of a "just for funzies" weapon. For "true" metabuilds right now, you need ACs rated 5 or higher (and some large energy weapons, preferably a pair of PPCs).

It's mid-tier meta, but not competitive meta. Doesn't mean it doesn't need some addressing (since it out DPSs the AC5). The Meta is moving towards AC5s, AC2/5 mixed, or AC20 (most competitive builds prefer 2 AC5s over the AC10).

[FupDup]

Bront, on 27 November 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

It's mid-tier meta, but not competitive meta. Doesn't mean it doesn't need some addressing (since it out DPSs the AC5). The Meta is moving towards AC5s, AC2/5 mixed, or AC20 (most competitive builds prefer 2 AC5s over the AC10).

I've only seen mixed AC2/5 like two or three times within the past few months. As for out-DPS'ing the AC/5, it also generates a lot more heat and has only a fraction of the alpha-damage (requires more shots to do that damage than the AC/5 does, resulting in greater exposure time and inaccuracy).

Edited by FupDup, 27 November 2013 - 03:25 PM.

[Bront]

FupDup, on 27 November 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

I've only seen mixed AC2/5 like once or twice within the past few months. As for out-DPS'ing the AC/5, it also generates a lot more heat and has only a fraction of the alpha-damage (requires more shots to do that damage than the AC/5 does, resulting in greater exposure time and inaccuracy).

THe AC2/AC5 mix build works on mechs that have 3 balistics in a single location, and runs cooler than 2 AC2s by a significant factor while giving you a very high DPS. Basically, it's about 13 points of heat cooler over 10 seconds at the cost of 7 points of damage over that same time span. It works surprisingly well with both the blinding effect, the alpha damage (9 points, followed by 2 rounds of 4 if you stick it out), the range, and heat (that's effectively 13 heat sinks worth of heat reduction)

[Sascha Kohlmann]

Adiuvo, on 27 November 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

ACs haven't had major changes to them... ever basically. They were never OP. They still aren't.

This thread has been done to death already.

Suppose that is why it is important when giving balancing feedback and hope this got somehow to the devs not just to say "AC are imba" but also why and what causes these inbalances

If they aren't imba, why is there so much griefing about them (also on secondary forums), why are nearly all mechs encountered equipped with multiple AC? What is a 6 Energy Mech supposed to do against an AC Build which is on all distances vastly superior in damage dealing? ... I am very sure the BI Data will also shows a drastic increase of AC Mechs and their superior performance

[SniperCon]

ACs showed up when all the 4 ERPPC boats had to take off 14 tons and put their thinking caps on.

[Sandpit]

So should I post my thoughts here or just paste and copy my comments form the 20 other threads? Is this the new "congregating" place for the "AC is op" bandwagon? Just want to be sure so I don't have to post the same thing 20 different times.

[Whatzituyah]

Sandpit, on 27 November 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

So should I post my thoughts here or just paste and copy my comments form the 20 other threads? Is this the new "congregating" place for the "AC is op" bandwagon? Just want to be sure so I don't have to post the same thing 20 different times.

I thing you should copy and paste this is going to repeat over and over again. Might aswell save your time I still like energy though in a combination with srms or machineguns thats pretty much it.

[Sandpit]

Whatzituyah, on 27 November 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

I thing you should copy and paste this is going to repeat over and over again. Might aswell save your time I still like energy though in a combination with srms or machineguns thats pretty much it.

I'll do one better

http://mwomercs.com/...oo-wide-spread/
http://mwomercs.com/...t-fire-weapons/
http://mwomercs.com/...143410-balance/
http://mwomercs.com/...27-gauss-rifle/
http://mwomercs.com/...-3-weeks-later/
http://mwomercs.com/...n-ac-balancing/

There, any time someone posts on this thread, just find one of my posts in any of those threads for the counter point

Edited by Sandpit, 27 November 2013 - 06:28 PM.

[Greyboots]

Sascha Kohlmann, on 27 November 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Currently MWO is more or less unplayable and has changed from the pretty good balanced game it was before to another "see a pixel of a target and deal extreme damage in a few seconds" game ... AC2 / AC5 / UAC5 duo, trippel or even quads everywhere. Unless you also change your playstyle into this direction there is little you can do. An energy weapon mech is just a sitting duck agains an AC Player, and LRMs seldom have a chance to lockon (either under ECM, or target forwarder is dead before something can be done ... not to mention that dual AMS can take down a 15 LRM salvo without breaking in sweat)



Here is a small list about the main problems from my perspective,what causes them and some suggestions how to fix this problem and make MWO again to a game were every playstyle and weaponmix has its place and can be fun to play.


Problem: Players get sniped on long distances with AC with nearly no time to react if fired uppon
Cause: Ac hit over long distance with extreme accuracy, speed and damage
Solution suggestion: Reduce the accuracy of AC when fired in short succession (to encourage players to shot in short salvos instead hitting the trigger until the target is down [like when fireing when jumping the bullet lands a bit off centre]. Also reduce drastically the damage an AC is doing when exceeding its maximum range.


Problem: Players seldom know where the shooter is and how to escape his fireing corridor or are able to return fire efficiently.
Cause: Compared to Lasers, PPC or LRM AC have a very low optical signature. Additionally the extreme cockpit shake makes it impossible to return fire.
Solution suggestion: Add a more visible signature - may it be a simple trail like tracer rounds or even revealing of the shooters position outside normal sensore range / while under ECM when a LOS is present. Additionally reduce the cockpitshake from AC Damage



You've managed to fix the broken balancing with LRM Rain, Gauss Snipers and Overpowered ECM ... i am sure you will also be able to fix the AC Problem

Look, I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

A lot of the things that people complain about can be fixed with tactics and well thought out loadouts..

MWO is not about killing the enemy, it is about controlling them. Once you control them, killing them is easy. It's as much about concepts like "suppression fire" as it is DPS so if you can scare an opponent sufficiently they won't move to a better firing position or regroup with his mates. You reduce their DPS and this their effectiveness. Alternatively, if you have an entrenched enemy, only one mech needs to get a Line of Sight on them and LRMs will drive them out.

Tactics as much as firepower. If you think ACs are rick rolling you? Learn how to combat them and build your mechs accordingly.

No, it's not easy to know what's going to be on your team in a pug and it can play merry hell. In the end though, that's pugging, not a balance issue.

[Lightfoot]

The Mechs are just too weak. They need to create a Battletech balanced game with no Ghost Heat, working Gauss Rifles, DHS 2.0 (full) then either reduce the damage the weapons do across the board or increase the toughness of the Mechs.

Why? Because Battletech set the three weapon types to be roughly equal, but each with a different weakness and strength. This adds a third layer of strategy to MechWarrior where the map enviornment can grant superiority to one of the weapon types. Thus, if players know they are preparing for a hot map like Tourmaline, they will take mostly cool Ballistic weapons. Conversely if they are preparing for Frozen City, they would take mostly Energy weapons to gain the benefits of that enviornment.

Right now, MWO is just all AC's and Ghost heat and DHS 1.4 is such a severe burden that the sub-zero maps grant no advantage to increasing the energy weapon loadout.

So MWO misses the bigger strategic picture because it relies too heavily on a couple of heat nerfs that also make ACs so effective.

[Khobai]

Quote

ACs haven't had major changes to them... ever basically. They were never OP. They still aren't.

Wrong. Say you have three weapons.

Weapon 1 has a power level of 30 (i.e. Gauss)
Weapon 2 has a power level of 20 (i.e PPCs/Autocannons)
Weapon 3 has a power level of 10 (i.e. Large Lasers)

Say its patch day and weapon 1 gets nerfed from a power level of 30 to 10. What's the result? Weapons 1 and 3 are now balanced and weapon 2 becomes comparatively overpowered.

See how that works? Autocannons ARE overpowered now. Even though Autocannons themselves didnt change, PPCs and Gauss did, as did Large Lasers with ghost heat, and thats why Autocannons now occupy the #1 spot.

Balance has nothing to do with whether or not autocannons are changed. It has to do with how good autocannons are in relation to other weapons. So if other weapons are nerfed (i.e. from ghost heat), thats the same as autocannons being buffed.

Edited by Khobai, 27 November 2013 - 09:11 PM.

[Sandpit]

Khobai, on 27 November 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

Autocannons ARE overpowered now..

Autocannons AREN'T overpowered now...

[Whatzituyah]

Sandpit, on 27 November 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

Autocannons AREN'T overpowered now...

Saying Autocannons are overpowered now is just like saying machineguns are over powered now...

[Jman5]

Autocannons have 3x max range, while energy weapons only have 2x.

For example: An AC/20 and Medium Laser both have a 270 meter optimal range. However, the medium laser has a max range of 540, while the AC/20 goes all the way out to 810 meters before zeroing out.

So not only do AC/20s hit further out than its counterpart the medium laser, but the ac/20 also has a much more gradual damage decline. At 540, it's still doing half damage.