26 replies to this topic

[Midnight Camel]

If one doesn't already exist, can someone put together a list of which mechs are XL safe due to hard-to-hit side torsos? I am specifically interested in having this question answered for the Quickdraw and Thunderbolt right now.

For those coming to this thread to have this question answered, here is my limited knowledge of the topic based on both experience and research:

Mechs with Hard-to-Hit Side Torsos:

• Awesome
  
• Battlemaster
  
• Catapult
  
• Cicada
  
• Dragon
  
• Shadow Hawk

Mechs That Get Their Side Torsos Blown Out Often

• Atlas
  
• Centurion
  
• Hunchback
  
• Jagermech (not 100% on this one, please advise)
  
• Stalker

Please add to or correct this list, and thanks.

[Joey Tankblaster]

Mechs in my mechlab...

Hard to hit but not impossible:
Jenner
Trebuchet
Kintaro
Catapult
Highlander
Victor

Easy to hit:
Centurion
Jager
Orion

[Mechteric]

Quickdraw can pretty safely use XL
Thunderbolt however I would not advise it

[Shade4x]

Impossible to hit
Spider
Comando
Locust
Cicada

Hard to hit
Jenner
Raven
Blackjack
Trebuchet
Kintaro
Shadow Hawk

Average to hit
Stalker
Centurion
Hunchback
Orion
Catapult
Cataphract
Victor
Thunderbolt

Easy to hit
Atlas
Battlemaster
Awesome
Highlander

Special Cases (east to hit from the sides, but not from back or front
Jaggermech
QuickDraw


When deciding on an XL, torso size is not the only factor. For survivability you need to consider jump jets, range and speed, as well as the size of the arms for arm tanking. As a general rule, i find it safe to XL anything on the average or better list is it has 2 of 4 things.

1) Jump jets
2) goes 80 KPH+ (100+ counts as 2 reasons)
3) Has big arms to absorb blows.
4) Long range
(also gauss in shoulders is always automaticly XL for me.)
On the same tolken if the mech has most of its weapons including the main weapon on one arm, i tend to favor XL Since if i lose that shoulder i'm dead anyways (which means i'm useless anyways)

Another thing that really must be considered heavily is weapon selection. A Standard battle master has enough to fit 3 AC/2's and ammo. An XL version can fit 3 AC/2's 5 medium lasers and enough heat sinks to make it useable. You need to ask yourself "are the extra weapons and speed worth the survivability." Then audit yourself. Pay attention to the next 10-20 matches. See how you died. How many times your shoulders go, and how many times you would survive and be combat effect if you where standard (or vice versa). Throw out any times you where completed f'ed and it didnt matter if you where XL or not.

Don't be a fan boy about it. Use real numbers, yours, as they reflect your play style. The idea of a zombie mech winning a game is romantizied way to much, however losing a shoulder and arm with 1 medium lasers on your AC/20 Orion hardly effects you. In higher elo's people recoginize XL's based on the weapons. If your running 2 AC/5's and 2 large lasers on a 50 ton mech and going fast, everyone knows to aim for your shoulders.

Thats all the advice i got.

[Mahws]

BrassyJack, on 28 November 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Mechs That Get Their Side Torsos Blown Out Often

• Jagermech (not 100% on this one, please advise)

Yes, yes and yes. Jagermechs have huge side torsos, which everyone aims for because most run XL engines.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Cataphract has easy to blowout side torsos

But its also a complete glass canon with crazy damage potential. If you ARE getting shot at in this mech, you're doing it wrong, as its a premiere second line mech.

[Israel Finklestein]

Quickdraw, Catapult, and Dragon are heavies you will want to run XL in 99% of the time. CPLT/DRG have such giant cores that you will get torso'd maybe in 1/50 games. Quickdraw has very wide arms with shields on them, jumpjets, and very long legs to protect its side torsos. Plus all three of these mechs usually run longer range builds.

Jagermechs and Cataphracts are both pretty easy to torso, but a lot of builds for both mechs run XL simply because it's required to fit the desired firepower in them.

Orions have extra tonnage over the JMA/CTF though, so you're less hard pressed for weight. There's an argument for running XL on some builds but I'd generally say it's ill advised.

I don't have enough experience with Thunderbolts to say whether or not XL is safe on them, I'm going to lean on saying no though.

[Midnight Camel]

Shade4x, on 28 November 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Easy to hit
Atlas
Battlemaster
Awesome
Highlander

Shade, excellent points but I want to quibble with your placement of the Battlemaster on the easy to hit list. From my 50 or so games in the chassis, I estimate that less than 10% of my deaths have been due to side torso. Part of this is due to my not being very good at twisting away damage but this is offset by my normally being on the first line.

[Roughneck45]

Always put them in lights, cicadas, and dragons.

Never put them in hunchbacks, centurions, or atlases.

Everything else you can use them and get decent results. The risk is pretty obvious, so you have to judge whether the firepower or speed you are bringing is worth it. Personally, I never run XL's in assaults. The mechs with the most armor should not be that fragile. If you are a careful pilot it can work in just about anything else.

Edited by Roughneck45, 01 December 2013 - 03:09 PM.

[Redshift2k5]

Jagers are sorta easy to side-core, but often run XLs in order to bring enough firepower. Very risk vs reward for an XL Jager.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 01 December 2013 - 03:31 PM.

[Koniving]

BrassyJack, on 28 November 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

List

I would advise waiting until after the mid-month patch. Many of the mechs on your list are getting hitbox changes.

Hitbox changes plan of action report.

[Hex Pallett]

If you're talking about Heavies only then I'd say all of them are XL-safe:

Dragons and 'pults have gigantic CT so no worries mostly.

Quickdraw and 'phracts have well-balanced torso hitboxes, but chance is you'll benefit from the extra firepower more than STD engine's survivability. But you can indeed make a few effective STD builds.

Orion does have a big LT, but in my experience it really needs both speed and firepower, so XL in my book. But again, STD builds are viable.

Jager is obviously very vulnerable on the sides, but its high-up gun arms allows you to shoot from cover very easily. So yeah, XL.

[xengk]

I stick XL engine on 2 of my Tbolt, which works fine for them since Im not using them as brawler.

TDR 5S LRM support
1x LRM20
1x LRM10
1x ER LLaz
TAG
BAP
XL 300
Goes over 80kph and providing LRM support at 400~500m range.
The single ER lets me poke at targets that my LRM cannot reach.


TDR 5SS Skirmish PPC
2x PPC
5x MLaz
XL 310
Top speed of 85kph, PPC for mid range support and use the speed to get to >90m when caught in a brawl.
MLaz mostly for swatting at lights and mediums or pinpoint alpha.
Not fantastic but this is the build that I found useful to me after many experimental builds.

[Charons Little Helper]

Yeah - most mechs seem to be having their side torsos grown & their center torso shrunk (or at least having their pelvis changed from CT to leg armor) - this will make XL engines much more of a risk on most mechs. Not necessarily a stupid risk - but a bigger risk nonetheless.

For example - virtually everyone used to run Orions XL because of their huge CT. (unless they really wanted an AC20) - now standard engines are much more viable and improve survivability. Do they do it enough to pay for their weight? Maybe.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 07 December 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[MechWarrior679696]

I've experienced some kind of bug with the Jager where I have my back or side turned completely to the enemy to spread out the damage, and I still get my center torso hit. It seems the hitboxes are still very loosely defined, or there is some sort of problem with the netcode. Either way, I would expect this kind of problem with a Dragon or somesuch, but with a Jager it's really damn annoying to get shot out from way beyond yonder by a couple of gausses or an AC20 when you've already made the move to mitigate the damage. And PPCs just plain deal damage even as they whizz past but make no contact.

Still, I run XL on my Jager, and I always will. There's no such concept as a zombie Jager or Dragon or even Cataphract, but then again you don't need to have that high survivability when you're running at 80 kph in a 2x LB10-X and laser-equipped murder-machine. You just need maneuverability and reflexes.

[Koniving]

Mr Huge, on 07 December 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

I've experienced some kind of bug with the Jager where I have my back or side turned completely to the enemy to spread out the damage, and I still get my center torso hit. It seems the hitboxes are still very loosely defined, or there is some sort of problem with the netcode.

See the hot-rod speed fins at the top of the Jager? Those are "front" CT, regardless of what side you hit. Your pelvis currently, from every angle except flat on the back, also counts as front CT. It's an on-going issue with every mech that hasn't been tweaked lately.

When PPCs "whizz past" but deal damage, they actually did hit on the enemy's screen and lag either on your end or their end made it appear to miss.

[Autobot9000]

Running an XL in an Awesome is asking for trouble.

[Jerod Drekmor]

I run STD 300 on my dragon and thb I mostly(70-80%) die to CT, but....I had many games when my side torso went off and my mech was still in action thx to STD engine.

If you run close range heavy(270-540m) I suggest STD, if fire support or sniper go XL.

[Mahws]

So for getting off a few extra shots in 20% of your games before biting the dust you sacrifice vastly increased speed or firepower in every single one of your games.

[Zordicron]

A comment on the T bolt(as it was released now for cbill)

I run XL in all of mine. I do well in all 3. Dont just replace the pretty much too small std with equivolent XL. Use the tonnage gained to partly add firepower, but to add speed also. I put 300 XL in my T bolts I think(might have a 285 or something in one of them) so they do over 70 kph. the SE has JJ, so use them and torso twist= easy to spread dmg. I do die to ST hits, prolly 1 out of 3, so fairly often. however, I am always showing internals on my whole torso before this anyway, so it is pretty well moot. Unless I get hammered by ac40 or dual guass something, in hich case I may see a mediocre match. But that isnt too often, so I dont worry about that either.

Phract: XL is ok, but it needs to make the phract do over 75kph, or dont bother. You need the big engine mostly for turn rate at that point, so you can spread dmg. CTF-4X = never run XL engine, because slow. I ran a XL in my 1x laser boat, made it do over 80k. that was a nimble phract lol.

I think others commented on the other stuff well enough.