47 replies to this topic

[Praslek2]

I'm interested in hearing opinions and strategies about how to fight clan mechs using an Inner Sphere force. I'm not very experienced with tabletop, but my brother has quite a few minis and he seems to like Clans. I want to use some Inner Sphere designs instead.

One question I'd be really interested in opinions about is whether melee attacks give Inner Sphere mechs any sort of advantage?

Anybody who does a lot of tabletop care to weigh in on this? Should I be sticking to Clan mechs when I go buy minis?

[Karl Streiger]

Well to defeat clans start in the beginning : by negotiating the rules:

Do you use a free - search and destroy scenario, or do you use a more fixed scenario like in the Chaos Campain rules - or other older Scenario Books with fixed setting?

How do you balance the game - when you don't have a setting

• BattleValue
  
• Tonnage
  
• Numbers

Have the Clans some disadvantages (honor rules, and no meele attacks)

How do you choose the terrain?
What are the victory conditions - when not used a fixed scenario?
Timeline?

OK - here is my setting:
When we use random terrain (roll a dice and choose the map sheets) - i try to use a all rounder list of mechs.

When I can choose the terrain i use a list that is optimized for terrain - its nice to force your opponent to move through a swap while hammering his positions with Arrows and indirect LRMs

However - the most important question is the force size balancing.
As IS - always - force him to use BattleValue -> you pilots are worser, you have worser tech but at least you can have greater numbers.
The main advantage at this is "Armor" don't use XL engine always take Standard Engines or at least Light Engines. That means you units are capable of taking much more damage.

If he doesn't use Zellbrigen - you are in grave need of every damage point that can be soaked up by your units.

The next task is composition of your units.
If you can freely choose: form your lances based on weapon ranges and speed of that units.

If you use "custom units" its easier to create a good list with few miniatures.
For example if you want to have an Atlas with decent long range weapons: simple take the AS7-K and interchange SHS and XL with Endosteel and DHS. Combine that unit with other assault Mechs with 3/5 speed (reduced BV cost) and STD fusion and long range weapons: for example the Banshee 3S - again remove los-tech weapons with SL Tech weapons and ES and DHS.

Those 2 units give you 2 ER-PPCs, 2 GaussRifles, 2 ER-Large Laser and 1 LRM 20 (with Artemis) - when you only have a lance of miniatures - you should look for mobile medium/heavy Mechs - Griffin, Lynx, Uziels


At least the List you choose should be dependend on the numbers of Mechs you have available:
For example when you only choose a lance of Mechs you have to choose more carefully.

Thats a reason why I like bigger battles (nothing below company size)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 29 November 2013 - 03:02 AM.

[Egomane]

These are all possible solutions that worked for me in the past:
- Thunder-LRMs
- Honoring cellbrigen until your forces are in position to take out two or three clan mechs with concentrated fire
- Homing arrows (at least 4 launchers) with lots of units with TAG

Karl mentioned the rest about BattleValue, strength in numbers, usage of terrain and such.

The best solution I have seen so far, was to make the clanner declare exactly with what force composition he will attack and then make him allow you to chose the terrain. Then take the backside of the terrain maps (the all-clear-hex side) and declare them as water with depth level 2 and use mechs with Torpedo-LRM and -SRM. Unfair? Oh yes, absolutly! But it is completly legal by the clan honor rules and bidding regulations.

[Karl Streiger]

Egomane, on 29 November 2013 - 03:29 AM, said:

The best solution I have seen so far, was to make the clanner declare exactly with what force composition he will attack and then make him allow you to chose the terrain. Then take the backside of the terrain maps (the all-clear-hex side) and declare them as water with depth level 2 and use mechs with Torpedo-LRM and -SRM. Unfair? Oh yes, absolutly! But it is completly legal by the clan honor rules and bidding regulations.

Oh - yes you really should do that....
That is the most secure way to absolute victory (although you can only make it once)

[ValdnadHartagga]

Observe the time-honored tradition of playing by battle value, making him declare his forces...and countering with an equivalent force comprised of nothing but Savannah Masters.

[Karl Streiger]

ValdnadHartagga, on 29 November 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

Observe the time-honored tradition of playing by battle value, making him declare his forces...and countering with an equivalent force comprised of nothing but Savannah Masters.

Question is if Force Size Modificator is used too....if you hardly get enough numbers. It would be a 8 Savanah Masters vs a single Warhawk C.

Last no least he ask for buying some minatures (I don't think he want to buy 72 Savanah Masters to match the binary of his brother

[dal10]

ValdnadHartagga, on 29 November 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

Observe the time-honored tradition of playing by battle value, making him declare his forces...and countering with an equivalent force comprised of nothing but Savannah Masters. R60L Urbanmechs*

just make sure it is a city enviroment first

[Devillin]

If you are looking for minis, you can always repurpose MW: Dark Age minis. You can get whole collections pretty cheap these days.

[LoPanShui]

Also try not to fight a ranged game against Clans. You tend to lose really bad, as their pilots are more accurate and their weapons have longer range. My best successes against clans involved either carefully using cover and terrain to approach to my medium range before presenting targets or, barring that, full on sprints directly at them with overwhelming numbers.

Clanners lose a lot of advantages once they get overrun and forced to either separate or fight multiple opponents from multiple directions. And the fact that most clan 'Mechs won't have hand actuators helps a lot when it comes to hefting up your lancemate's severed arm and beating that Masaraki to death with it.

[Karl Streiger]

LoPanShui, on 02 December 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Also try not to fight a ranged game against Clans. You tend to lose really bad, as their pilots are more accurate and their weapons have longer range. My best successes against clans involved either carefully using cover and terrain to approach to my medium range before presenting targets or, barring that, full on sprints directly at them with overwhelming numbers.

Oh there is an exception for that:
Using C3 system will allow you to be as precise as your enemy at long and extreme range (and your really should make some deals with your opponent to allow extreme range - the best shot i ever made was hail storm of Rotary 5...bullets... with maximum rate - and two RACs 5....at 20 hex distance (extreme range rules + C3 + targeting computer and a not moving target = 60 damage - two 7s to do that)

[Spokes]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Smoke_SRM

[SteelWarrior]

Karl Streiger, on 03 December 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

Oh there is an exception for that:
Using C3 system will allow you to be as precise as your enemy at long and extreme range (and your really should make some deals with your opponent to allow extreme range - the best shot i ever made was hail storm of Rotary 5...bullets... with maximum rate - and two RACs 5....at 20 hex distance (extreme range rules + C3 + targeting computer and a not moving target = 60 damage - two 7s to do that)

Neg. While i appreciate your approach to this solution as a regular DCMS player who utilizes C3 every chance I can get...Using C3 vs clan forces is a poor choice sadly. Far too many designs pack ECMS (Loki prime for example, a very common clan mech, and even clan Battle Armor can pack ecms), and when you field a C3 lance with the network enabled for the game, theres actually a HUGE BV tax for using it (not mentioned in the Total War rule book but in the Tech Manual, you basically pay an extra 20% for each unit in the lance connected to the network). Makes your force very lethal but at the cost you pay for it, your losing too much of your numbers advantage and can be easily countered by ecm.

Mass the units, play a pure armor attrition game, from anything needing more then an 8+ to hit, just focus on moving and keep your heat down, use woods and partial cover as often as possible. A clan Daishi is 3300 BV2, you can take 2 Hatamoto-Chi 80 ton assualt mechs for the same cost, pits your almost 500 armor + internals vs his total armor which is half of yours. Just got to grind them down, get close and kick them as much as possible. A clan 50 tonner Nova is 2200bv....In our games usually the clanner falls to the IS attrition game, just focus on high armor, low cost units, that are what people call Zombie mechs, units that dont blow up from ammo explosions or have only 50% max armor. If you field something with Machine guns, declare your entering the battle with only 10 rounds of MG ammo, enter the battle with half your munitions if its a unit you can get away with it. SRM2's pack 50 shots per ton of ammo, dont let your mech die to a 500 point explosions when theres no way in hell you can fire off your SRM 50 times in a battle.

Edited by SteelWarrior, 06 December 2013 - 11:49 PM.

[DarkDevilDancer]

You want to beat clans take superior numbers, you should have a 2:1 advantage at least against clans.

Remember you dont have to follow zelbringen focus your fire on one mech at a time and they will drop.

And dont be afraid to get in close with mechs like the hatchet man, giving the odd kick can mean victory.

[Pacifist]

As a Hobarts Funnies loadout. Grab as many BV 981 Chargers as you can and attack. If you want to be a scaredy cat you can bring some Archers too.

[C E Dwyer]

You let PGI nerf clan tech intop the ground to provide balance and then let the tears start to fall.

Which is what is happening, and what will happen slightly after they get into the game.

clan mechs are going to be slightly better, than Is mechs but look like clan mechs.

As a person who will never use a clan mech (ok i might grind a timber wolf, but I certainly won't pay MC for one) I feel slightly smug in that clan mechs are going to be sensible and not point and clicky, but I feel this is going to hurt the game as the rage quit happens

[dal10]

there is no way to insert clan tech without causing rage, besides possibly making only clan vs clan IS vs IS and not having cross tech matches.

which would still probably cause a lot of rage.

[Egomane]

Guys, this is not a thread about MWO and how MWO will handle the clans.

This is purely about the tabletop, so please stay on topic!

[BigO]

My group used to always shortcut the Clanner advantage by just giving the IS forces an extra 50% tonnage. We also never used BV cuz.....math (we also did not use computers or building programs, cuz......80's)

Clan tech vs clan tech is a reasonable fight. It's just a boring reasonable fight. The IS got so many shiny new innovative toys when the clanners showed up, it seems a terrible shame not to use them.

Use the terrain whenever possible. Insist on cluttered maps. Superior range and firepower means jack all if there's a cliffside in their way. Smoke loads for your missles can let you bring your own cover if it's not conveniently located. Jump jets are darn handy for mobility and for getting out of a tight scrape. MASC can give them a much needed speed penalty if you need to get from one cover spot to another. Just don't use it every turn.

And if they don't cave on cluttered maps, use 45 ton hovertanks with 10/15 speed and a large pulse laser to ruin his day (some streaks don't hurt either). I ruined sooo many days with those.

Clanners are not big on close combat. You should be. Hatchets are wonderful weapons with a 8x greater chance for removing that pesky head in one sexy stroke. Paired with Triple Strength Myomer and a gauntlet of pulse lasers, you can make that 75 ton handshake feel like 150 tons of love. One of my favorite designs was a 75-tonner with TSM and a hatchet. I called it the Tomahawk and I collected scalps with it. Pulse lasers on the left, Hatchet on the right, and a couple of long ranged guns in the chest to keep folks honest.

God help the clans if you use lvl 3 rules. LAMS, those god-awful magnetic pulse warheads, and all the rest of that level 3 cheese can really jack with the clanners day if you have the deviant nature to use them

[Pht]

Seems like the answers are...

"exploit the stupid clan honor rules to your advantage (using BV, tonnage, numbers, etc)"

"exploit range-limiting terrain"

"exploit the few tech advantages you have"

... are still the time-honored answers.

Some fairly decent stuff, while not clan vs. IS specific, here: http://www.ourbattle...h/game-tactics/

What I'd really like to know ... is how to beat the clan tech and basic P/G# advantages ... vs a clan force that has NO reason to use clan honor rules against your force (treats you like bandits/dark caste) - where they basically view you as trash and will be just as creative about it as you can be.

I would think exploiting honor code holes would pretty much make ANY IS force fall into this factor after a while (say, in an extended campaign setting, etc.).

Ideas?

Does anyone have any reasonable ideas on how to fight the clans W/O eventually winding up being treated as not worthy of using zell vs you?

Edited by Pht, 08 December 2013 - 12:26 PM.

[Steven Dixon]

When I play IS against Clans I usually try to bring Kia Allard Liao with me, for some reason we usually win .

Playing as the underdog can actually be quite fun though. If they aren't playing by clan honor rules you might consider changing things up like making asymmetric warfare. For example perhaps in one game you would be inside a city with free extra infantry and tanks to aid you. Or changing up the victory conditions, maybe he has to destroy all of your mechs is X turns or you win. These are just two off the top of my head.

In a streight up fight, as has been mentioned probably the two best ways to beat the clans are to simply overwhelm them with numbers (I've used the 'zombie mech' strategy successfully before) or exploit their honor system. However many clan players don't play with clan honor rules, so that doesn't always work. Loaded dice also work pretty well.

That is a joke btw. Cheating in a game just cheats you both. A GI Joe soldier stopped by one of my tabletop games and told me that once, it changed my life.

Edited by Steven Dixon, 08 December 2013 - 04:11 PM.